The Reasons Jews Do Not Believe Jesus Was G-d....

[Woody]

"you guys" includes me -- no?

 

[SnakeLord]

Perhaps if you were alive during the time that is the context of our discussion.

I'll explain why I use the term "you guys" at a later date if you ask me to do so. However, it has very little to do with the discussion so if you could find the time to actually get to the points offered in my post, it would be appreciated.

 

[Woody]

im not going to go through the lengthy "quote" about previous messianic claimants, woody...but i know for a FACT that at least ONE of those listed NEVER claimed to be the messiah: isaac luria.
he is a particularly interesting man to me, due to his philosophies and such. he was a humble, generous man.......WHO NEVER CLAIMED TO BE THE MESSIAH. not even close.

I used the Wikepedia article -- Wiki has a disclaimer about its articles -- that they depend on the volunteer that writes them. According to the Wikepedia:

Isaac Luria (Isaac ben Solomon Ashkenazi Luria) was a Jewish advocate of Kabbalah (esoteric mysticism). At a later point, his disciple and successor, Chaim Vital Calabrese, was thought of as the messiah by some Palestinian Jews. Both claimed to be Ephraitic Messiahs, forerunners of the Davidic Messiah.

Isaac Luria (b. 1534 in Jerusalem; d. 1572 in Safed, Israel) taught in his mystic system the transmigration and superfetation of souls, and believed himself to possess the soul of the messiah of the house of Joseph, and to have it as his mission to hasten the coming of the messiah of the house of David through the mystic improvement of souls. Having developed his Kabbalistic system in Egypt without finding many followers, he went to Safed, Israel, about 1569. There he met Chaim Vital Calabrese, to whom he revealed his secrets, and through whom he secured many disciples. To these he taught secretly his messiah ship. He believed that the messianic era would commence in the beginning of the second half of the second day (of the year 1000) after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, that is, in 1568.

On Luria's death, Chaim Vital Calabrese (b. 1543; d. 1620 at Damascus) claimed to be the Ephraitic Messiah and preached the speedy advent of the Messianic era. In 1574 Abraham Shalom, a pretender to the Davidic Messiah ship, it seems, sent to Vital, saying that he (Shalom) was the Davidic Messiah, whereas Vital was the Messiah of the house of Joseph. He urged Vital to go to Jerusalem and stay there for at least two years, whereupon the divine spirit would come upon him. Shalom bade Vital, furthermore, not to fear death, the fate of the Ephraitic Messiah, as he would seek to save him from this doom.

I've never heard of the man, so I don't know what to think about him.

 

[Woody]

S/L says:

Perhaps if you were alive during the time that is the context of our discussion.

Christians are still christians yesterday, today, and tommorrow. Are you saying that christians today wouldn't do the same things given the chance? I'll give you a hint -- we don't make anyone come to our church -- we invite them. If they say no, we don't want to kill them, rather we hope they will come for their own benefit not ours. I think you will find that most christians that care to call themselves such are peaceful and have a genuine concern for others. When I meet someone, it usually doesn't take me long to figure out whether they are a christian -- their speech, personal habits, attitude, demeaner, and general behavior are clues -- but that's me speaking.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Christians are still christians yesterday, today, and tommorrow. Are you saying that christians today wouldn't do the same things given the chance? I'll give you a hint -- we don't make anyone come to our church -- we invite them. If they say no, we don't want to kill them, rather we hope they will come for their own benefit not ours. I think you will find that most christians that care to call themselves such are peaceful and have a genuine concern for others. When I meet someone, it usually doesn't take me long to figure out whether they are a christian -- their speech, personal habits, attitude, demeaner, and general behavior are clues -- but that's me speaking.

*************
M*W: Woody said, "Christians are still christians yesterday, today, and tomorrow? Are you saying that christians today wouldn't do the same things given the chance?"

*************
M*W: Just this morning I posted the following in the thread about "apologizing for christian wrongs like witch burning." Woody has posted his answer (why are we not surprised?) in this thread. My post is as follows:

Saying one is sorry and asking for forgiveness are vastly opposite. As Americans, we can say "we are sorry" for what our white ancestors did to Native Americans, and we can sincerely mean it, even though we weren't there and took no part in the American Inquisition. In some infinite capacity, we are responsible in that we still carry the genes of our guilty ancestors. We can say "we're sorry" till hell freezes over, but asking for forgiveness crosses over the generations between us. To be truly forgiven is to not make the same mistake again.

Embracing a guilty religion is another matter that goes much deeper than national fervor. We are aware of what our religious ancestors did during the Crusades and the Christian Inquistion, and I believe we are still truly sorry to this day that our genes could have stooped so vile to torture and kill innocent people (9 million women). Our continuing to ask for forgiveness for these atrocities means nothing. If a person is truly sorry and begs forgiveness for these crimes, they wouldn't embrace christianity. It's that simple. For those christians who continue to proclaim they believe the truths of their religion, are not sorry for the guilt they bear from what their ancestors have done. They are not asking for forgiveness or redemption from their genetically transmitted guilt. In fact, the only way they could truly be sorry for the crimes of Christianity their ancestors committed would be to deny their faith. Those who refuse to leave christianity, still carry the crime and the guilt in their genes, and they will not be forgiven for what their religious ancestors have done to hurt mankind.

 

[The Devil Inside]

I used the Wikepedia article -- Wiki has a disclaimer about its articles -- that they depend on the volunteer that writes them. According to the Wikepedia:



I've never heard of the man, so I don't know what to think about him.

its about as accurate as me saying that Mr. T claimed to be the messiah.
do your research before you post, retard.

 

[Michael]

lol, the Torah was not "canonized"....it was translated into the septuagint, along with other texts, and pretty much kept in decent shape.

When did that happen?

 

[The Devil Inside]

Chaim Vital Calabrese

read the article, smartguy.

 

[The Devil Inside]

the septuagint, michael?

 

[Michael]

the septuagint, michael?

yeah...

Maybe you should just do a quick review, I'm not sure if I know what the difference between the Torah and the Septuagint is? I just wondered when they were first written down in a form that was the same as is found at Boarders today.

So when was the whole set of Jewish religous book(s) put onto paper and everyone agreed yes this is correct?

 

[The Devil Inside]

a loooooong time ago.
if you mean the septuagint, it was written around 250 ce, if im not mistaken.
the other texts are much older, however.

 

[The Devil Inside]

btw: septuagint is just a greek translation of the hebrew Torah.

 

[Woody]

*************
M*W: Woody said, "Christians are still christians yesterday, today, and tomorrow? Are you saying that christians today wouldn't do the same things given the chance?"

*************
M*W: Just this morning I posted the following in the thread about "apologizing for christian wrongs like witch burning." Woody has posted his answer (why are we not surprised?) in this thread. My post is as follows:

“ Saying one is sorry and asking for forgiveness are vastly opposite. As Americans, we can say "we are sorry" for what our white ancestors did to Native Americans, and we can sincerely mean it, even though we weren't there and took no part in the American Inquisition. In some infinite capacity, we are responsible in that we still carry the genes of our guilty ancestors. We can say "we're sorry" till hell freezes over, but asking for forgiveness crosses over the generations between us. To be truly forgiven is to not make the same mistake again.

Embracing a guilty religion is another matter that goes much deeper than national fervor. We are aware of what our religious ancestors did during the Crusades and the Christian Inquistion, and I believe we are still truly sorry to this day that our genes could have stooped so vile to torture and kill innocent people (9 million women). Our continuing to ask for forgiveness for these atrocities means nothing. If a person is truly sorry and begs forgiveness for these crimes, they wouldn't embrace christianity. It's that simple. For those christians who continue to proclaim they believe the truths of their religion, are not sorry for the guilt they bear from what their ancestors have done. They are not asking for forgiveness or redemption from their genetically transmitted guilt. In fact, the only way they could truly be sorry for the crimes of Christianity their ancestors committed would be to deny their faith. Those who refuse to leave christianity, still carry the crime and the guilt in their genes, and they will not be forgiven for what their religious ancestors have done to hurt mankind. ”

You have your perspective and I have mine:

Blaming someone for something they didn't do (burning witches), had no control over, and that they don't agree with -- that's a real cop-out. An apology demanded is this way does not seek fairness, but rather an unfair advantage, and retribution that is as unjust as the original crime. It's like the lynch mob hanging the wrong guy.

We have a former witch in our church, and I'd never think of doing such a hideous thing to her or anyone else. The Christ I believe in died for ALL sinners and that includes witches.

I've already responded to the post about burning witches/heritics at the stake, and apparantly you failed to read it so I'll post it again:

I didn't think the puritan rituals were fair -- far from it. I actually resent what was done by those people. Gulliver's Travels illustrates the "no win" conditions that were set up to prove a person was a witch.

For example: A supposed witch could be identified by throwing them in water -- if they sank then they weren't a witch -- if they floated then they were a witch. When this "proof-positive" method was used, the "innocent" party drowned to prove their point -- great intellectual reasoning here ***. Either way the person is out of the way because someone didn't like them.

Then there was the Grand Inquisition performed by the Catholic Church, where many of my fellowbelievers were burned at the stake simply because they would not submit to the church politics: If a person read a bible they could be burned at the stake. Ignorance of the bible was preferred for the laity -- this allowed the church leaders more latitude to "write their own rules" to their own advantage,

Your response really belongs on the other post, not on this one. It's a distraction for this discussion. Now where were we?

 

[Woody]

its about as accurate as me saying that Mr. T claimed to be the messiah.
do your research before you post, retard.

Why don't you do something constructive -- like volunteering to rewrite the wikepedia? I have given enough examples of the false messiahs -- will you also defend Jim Jones, Father Divine, Moon, et al? Why don't you just accept the realistic fact that there are many false messiahs (the point I originally made), then get over it, and return to rational discussion instead of throwing red herrings at me. You do that a lot and it's distracting.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

You have your perspective and I have mine:

Blaming someone for something they didn't do (burning witches), had no control over, and that they don't agree with -- that's a real cop-out. An apology demanded is this way does not seek fairness, but rather an unfair advantage, and retribution that is as unjust as the original crime. It's like the lynch mob hanging the wrong guy.

We have a former witch in our church, and I'd never think of doing such a hideous thing to her or anyone else. The Christ I believe in died for ALL sinners and that includes witches.

I've already responded to the post about burning witches/heritics at the stake, and apparantly you failed to read it so I'll post it again:

Your response really belongs on the other post, not on this one. It's a distraction for this discussion. Now where were we?

*************
M*W: Man, you'll try anything to change the subject! You embrace christianity, therefore, you are just as guilty as the evil ones who tortured and killed nine million innocent women (none of whom were witches) in the NAME OF CHRISTIANITY!

Fortunately, there is this little thing called karma, and it will find you, one way or the other.

 

[Woody]

double post

 

[Woody]

*************
M*W: Man, you'll try anything to change the subject! You embrace christianity, therefore, you are just as guilty as the evil ones who tortured and killed nine million innocent women (none of whom were witches) in the NAME OF CHRISTIANITY!

Fortunately, there is this little thing called karma, and it will find you, one way or the other.

Karma Schmarma
See what I mean? It's a cop-out
Jesus didn't do it, and he's the first christian. Christians are named after Him. Do you want him to apologize?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

See what I mean? It's a cop-out
Jesus didn't do it.

*************
M*W: Woody, you are the big distraction on this forum, not me. Shall we take a poll? You are the one who can't come up with any answers, therefore, Woody, it is you who continues to cop-out. You continue to defend your vile religion, therefore, you, Woody, are as vile as the filth you embrace.

 

[Woody]

*************
M*W: Woody, you are the big distraction on this forum, not me. Shall we take a poll? You are the one who can't come up with any answers, therefore, Woody, it is you who continues to cop-out. You continue to defend your vile religion, therefore, you, Woody, are as vile as the filth you embrace.

I hate religion, Jesus hated religion, you hate religion -- we all have something in common.

 

[SnakeLord]

Blaming someone for something they didn't do (burning witches), had no control over, and that they don't agree with -- that's a real cop-out

Very amusing then that we're apparently all guilty and need forgiveness because some guy and woman that we had no control over, didn't know, and didn't agree with ate a fruit several millennia ago. I agree.. It's a cop-out.