The Reasons Jews Do Not Believe Jesus Was G-d....

[SnakeLord]

Adam is a created being, Jesus is not

Colossians 1:15 (talking about jesus)..

'He is the image of the unseen god, the first born of all creation..'

It goes on to say he is the "first born from the dead".

These statements would imply that jesus was created, (ok, before adam, but created nonetheless).

{edit} I forgot you're a kjv man, so.. from the kjv:

"the firstborn of every creature"

"the firstborn from the dead"

 

[Woody]

Colossians 1:15 (talking about jesus)..

'He is the image of the unseen god, the first born of all creation..'

It goes on to say he is the "first born from the dead".

These statements would imply that jesus was created, (ok, before adam, but created nonetheless).

{edit} I forgot you're a kjv man, so.. from the kjv:

"the firstborn of every creature"

"the firstborn from the dead"

The arius heresy says Jesus is something less than God, and was created by God.

The bible does not agree:

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Word = God

John 1:10-12

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth

The word was in the beginning, and the word is Jesus.

Word = Jesus

Therefore: God = Word = Jesus

 

[The Devil Inside]

Silas:



Adam is a created being, Jesus is not. The universe was created by Jesus before Adam existed (reference Colossians).

Gen 1:26 Jesus was there.

again Daniel 3:23-24



Jesus was there.

Any bible scholar that's worth his salt knows these verses are about Jesus, likewise for Isaiah 53.

no, any bible scholar that happens to be a CHRISTIAN thinks this.

 

[Woody]

no, any bible scholar that happens to be a CHRISTIAN thinks this.

You're not a bible scholar. You do think highly of yourself though.

Proverbs 16:8

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

You never cease to brag on yourself and Snakelord picked right through you. Easy pickings.

 

[Happeh]

You never cease to brag on yourself and Snakelord picked right through you. Easy pickings.

Snakelord is a jewish person. It is his job to attack and destroy any person he comes into contact with that evinces a religious belief.

Only those who are religious stand a chance against Israeli World Domination.

 

[Woody]

Snakelord is a jewish person. It is his job to attack and destroy any person he comes into contact with that evinces a religious belief.

Only those who are religious stand a chance against Israeli World Domination.

S/L is an atheist.

 

[The Devil Inside]

lol...thought i was on your "ignore list", woody.
i know more about the bible than you could ever dream though. good try.

oh, and btw....i am CERTAIN that snakelord and myself both agree on your ignorance of the topic.


happeh, i am the jew here, not snakelord. i believe he is an atheist...at least agnostic.
its apparent that you didnt read the thread at all.

 

[SnakeLord]

The bible does not agree:

Alas Woody, the bible does agree. Even your beloved kjv clearly states that jesus was born and created. I notice your post kind of ignored everything I had said and started waffling on about something else. That does not in any way detract from what I had originally posted.

You're not a bible scholar. You do think highly of yourself though.

In this instance I have to be on Devil's side - for several reasons:

A) It seems unlikely from the conversation that you are in any position to say what Devil is or is not.

B) You have no argument when stating "you're not a bible scholar', unless you are going to state that nobody that isn't a biblical scholar can understand the bible.

C) Devil is right in saying "christian scholars".. unless you are going to claim you know the thoughts and feelings of every other "scholar" on the planet.

You simply have no weight to your statement.

Happeh:

Snakelord is a jewish person

Wrong. Try again.

It is his job to attack and destroy any person he comes into contact with that evinces a religious belief

If I were jewish, as you claim, then it wouldn't be my job to attack people with religious belief, (well, at least not jewish religious belief I would assume). Your two statements do not work together.

However, the entire forum already knows you're a halfwitted simpleton, so I shall let it pass.

 

[c7ityi_]

Alas Woody, the bible does agree. Even your beloved kjv clearly states that jesus was born and created.

only his body was created. christ (existence, self, logos) was not created. he created his own body, just like we all do, with the creative principle, life, the divinity which lives in everything.

when the self entered matter its level of consciousness was lowered so we no longer remember ourselves. we are so far away from our real self that we think it's a whole different entity which we call god because we see that it's so superior to us.

the human body is like a stable, there are various animals (bodily desires) there. among those animals, a divine child is born: self consciousness. but in our ignorance, we have crucified our higher self between space and time, in past and future -- in the material world/body (cross)

 

[Woody]

S/L said:

Alas Woody, the bible does agree. Even your beloved kjv clearly states that jesus was born and created. I notice your post kind of ignored everything I had said and started waffling on about something else. That does not in any way detract from what I had originally posted.

Jehovah's Witnesses agree with Arius's point of view, that Jesus is a created being and hence something less than God. I have no desire to become a Jehovah's Witness.

I already told you that your point of view is a well known heresy in the early church started by arius. Check it out -- there has already been plenty said on this one, and neither one of us has anything new to add. The issue was settled 1700 years ago. But I know you do love heresy.

Yes, Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary. (The word was made flesh and dwelt among us). But Jesus existed before the incarnation occurred, but He didn't exist in the flesh until he was born.

You also stated that Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, and he is. He had to take human form and die to provide life for others.

As colossians says, there was nothing made apart from Jesus making it. It is hard to imagine Jesus creating himself. The JWs even doctor up verse 15 to force their doctrinal error in the New World Translation trashola.

Col vs 16,17 says about Jesus: All things were created by him and for him, and He is before all things and by him all things consist.

Therefore, according to the bible, without Jesus (God's word), God does not consist. Jesus is the word of God.

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So in summary, Jesus has not always been in the flesh, but he has always been in the spirit. Any reference to his birth is a reference to his physical body which did not always exist, but was born. His spirit is the holy spirit which has always been here. Jesus is an eternal part of God.

 

[Happeh]

S/L is an atheist.

And there are WMD in Iraq.

 

[Happeh]

its apparent that you didnt read the thread at all.

Jew is in the culture. Half of Britain and America are jewish. They just don't know it.

Snakelord says his godparents or something were jewish. That means he was indoctrinated.

 

[android]

Judeo-Christian is the culture; dualistic, absolute idealism and individualistic materialism are its scientific names.

Gas 'em - Jews, Christians, Muslims, liberals - gas them all.

 

[Silas]

"according to some ancient authorities" seems to be a strange way of putting it if it actually means some of the more ancient manuscripts.

I was wrong. Apparently the NRSV uses "ancient authorities" throughout its notes to refer to the most ancient NT manuscripts.

 

[SnakeLord]

Jehovah's Witnesses agree with Arius's point of view, that Jesus is a created being and hence something less than God. I have no desire to become a Jehovah's Witness.

It doesn't matter whether you want to be one or not, you simply have no authority over them. The sheer amount of differing 'christians' shows beyond any doubt that the bible is one major contradiction after another. Some say this, some say that.. what you say is of no more value than what anyone else says.

Any reference to his birth is a reference to his physical body which did not always exist, but was born.

This doesn't make sense given that it states him as the firstborn. If it were talking about physical existence, Adam would be the firstborn of all creation.

Jew is in the culture. Half of Britain and America are jewish. They just don't know it.

And you're totally retarded, you just don't know it.

 

[Woody]

S/L said:

It doesn't matter whether you want to be one or not, you simply have no authority over them. The sheer amount of differing 'christians' shows beyond any doubt that the bible is one major contradiction after another. Some say this, some say that.. what you say is of no more value than what anyone else says.

I have no desire to be a Jehovah's Witness. Do you want to be a JW since they agree with your view on Jesus? Not likely.

Here's how they try to wiggle out of the diety of Jesus (by altering the bible):

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in heavens and upon the earth, the thing visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist.Colossians 1:15 NWT

It's just plain vanilla arian heresy. Nothing new here. And by the way, there is no authority in the NWT -- the JW's won't provide the names of the translators to verify their credibility. As they say in law -- read the fine print.

 

[SnakeLord]

I have no desire to be a Jehovah's Witness. Do you want to be a JW since they agree with your view on Jesus? Not likely.

As an atheist, the answer to that question should be obvious - not to mention it's a rather silly question to begin with. Since when does agreeing with someone mean you want to be one of them?

Here's how they try to wiggle out of the diety of Jesus (by altering the bible):

Now we can't have that, can we? We already know the bible has been altered far too many times without the jw input. My concern is solely with saying god is the firstborn, when most would have us assume god was never born, (or in the terms of jesus, most certainly not the first born).

Look at Melchizedek.. it is stated that he has "no beginning or end", and yet even your god does not get that honour judging by Colossians. Melchizedek has no beginning and yet god was born. Makes you wonder.

 

[The Devil Inside]

again, i reiterate my point...and agree with snakelord.

once a religious text is altered to suit someone's dogma, it becomes invalid within the context of the religion, and is unusable in religious conversation.

what stops me from taking a kjb and altering what i dont like and calling it "The Devil Inside Revisionist Bible"? lol

dont use the new testament to argue for validity of the new testament, if you want to be taken seriously, woody.

 

[The Devil Inside]

again, i reiterate my point...and agree with snakelord.

once a religious text is altered to suit someone's dogma, it becomes invalid within the context of the religion, and is unusable in religious conversation.

what stops me from taking a kjb and altering what i dont like and calling it "The Devil Inside Revisionist Bible"? lol

dont use the new testament to argue for validity of the new testament, if you want to be taken seriously, woody.

btw: the DIRB (as i like to call it) would have a flaming satan on the cover, with a crying jesus in the background....and of course, a sun with sunglasses on, in the sky.

 

[Woody]

S/L says:

Look at Melchizedek.. it is stated that he has "no beginning or end", and yet even your god does not get that honour judging by Colossians. Melchizedek has no beginning and yet god was born. Makes you wonder.

Could you please locate chapter and verse on Melchizedek?

Bible: Hebrews 5:5-6

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Christ is a type of Melchisedek, but also the only begotten son.

1 Timothy 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Yeah it's a real mystery how God is both firstborn and everlasting God but He is. So you are saying there was a time when Jesus did not exist. Well how can God be the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and still be one God? Which came first? ...answer 1 Timothy 3:16


Hebrews Chapter 1:

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Jesus is odviously not an angel. When was he firstbegotten, when he was born in the flesh?

When I read this it tells me that Jesus was always a part of God, but this part of God took on human form and hence is begotten.

Matthew 10:30-33 Jesus talking

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Notice they said he made himself God, not "he made himself a God"

Rev 22:13 Jesus says:

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

If Jesus is the first, the beginning, who came before Him?