The Real Name of the Muslim Messiah

[WildBlueYonder]

Re: Re: Islam has it backwards

Originally posted by Markx
There you go again. Do you need some more slapping?

Is violence all you know? Bad X, bad, bad!

Do I need to repeat my self again?

as if you wouldn't?

Why is that you Baptists or should I say Chrisitan terrorists hate all other religions?

all muslims that try to bring down Christianity are from a hate group, usually connected with Amaddya (sic) the 'AHMADIYYA MOVEMENT' http://alhafeez.org/rashid/

Afraid of something?

Like you? You must be kidding!

Randolfo I really hope that you do some of your own research instead of copying and pasting.

except for the Bible quotes, it's all my ideas & reasoning, were do you think I plagiarized it from? if you can find an other author that wrote similar things via a search engine or those teachers' plagiarized checking programs, why post your findings, so that I can buy the books of someone that thinks just like me! I hope that brings terror in your heart! (Hmmm, does that make me a terrorist?) Uhhh, 2 Randolfos loose on the world, are you trembling yet?

It was people like you, who made me leave christianity to atheism and from atheism to Islam. It is a perfect time for you to convert to Atheism, since christianity has failed you.

Islam huh? So from the fire into the frying pan? You're a joke! at least in atheism, you had some logical backing for your beliefs, or rather lack thereof, but islam for logical or reasoning people, what a laugh! I could understand if you were born into it, since most of us are shaped by our upbringing, our society & culture. You are proof that the West lets people explore the bounds of personal belief, or lack thereof, by leaving Christianity. Now let's see if you can ever repeat the process in a muslim country? you'll be dogmeat salami

 

[AAF]

Originally posted by Markx
First, answer my previous two questions.

Second, you are right. I am not bold enough to kick historical research out of science, where I don't see an argument. You are trying to hide your embarrasment that you have failed to answer all the members here about your sources and second you failed to tell me the relevance of this fabricated argument.

I am expecting another irrelevant reply from you. So please hurry. ha

'Hide my embarrasment'?
Are you mistaking me for "ProudSyrian"?
I've nothing of that sort.
Also why are you treating my post here as if it were a PH.D thesis in this chatroom! I don't have to reveal my sources. Why should I? I get no credit for that. Exchange of ideas is the whole purpose of such discussion, no more and no less.
One thing is certain. Abu Ba'aja is the true name of the Muslim Prophet. That is a historical fact.
History is on my side.

 

[Pakman]

With all due respect, you are mistaken AAF. There is no history book which agrees with what you say. Everything you have said is unsupportable. As for your sources, you do have to list them. This is the basis for decision in any forum.

I hate to say this, but your boat has sank. This is a thread I will further avoid. I urge this message to anyone else. It seems as if we are going in circles.

But please AAF, if you are willing too, I recommend the best course of action, which is to list your sources. List them and I will respond accordingly. Thank you and have a nice day.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by AAF

Also why are you treating my post here as if it were a PH.D thesis in this chatroom! I don't have to reveal my sources. Why should I? I get no credit for that. Exchange of ideas is the whole purpose of such discussion, no more and no less.
One thing is certain. Abu Ba'aja is the true name of the Muslim Prophet. That is a historical fact.
History is on my side.

Interesting idea, but to answer your question, here is a quote as to why you should post sources (with proper attribution):

Originally posted by Pakman
As for your sources, you do have to list them. This is the basis for decision in any forum.

But please AAF, if you are willing too, I recommend the best course of action, which is to list your sources. List them and I will respond accordingly. Thank you and have a nice day.

To Pakman, Thanks , you have a good idea for anyone that is proposing such wild ideas or thoughts, to back them up with facts

 

[AAF]

Originally posted by Pakman
With all due respect, you are mistaken AAF. There is no history book which agrees with what you say. Everything you have said is unsupportable. As for your sources, you do have to list them. This is the basis for decision in any forum.

I hate to say this, but your boat has sank. This is a thread I will further avoid. I urge this message to anyone else. It seems as if we are going in circles.

But please AAF, if you are willing too, I recommend the best course of action, which is to list your sources. List them and I will respond accordingly. Thank you and have a nice day.

Certainly not!
Reference listing is a requirement only for primary publications, i.e. publications that can be used for establishing originality and resolving priority disputes.
In any case, all what your rebuttal amounts to is this:
{The idea of pre-Islamic name of Mohammed is original. Therefore it is false}!
I say you're utterly wrong. The reason is simple.
Originality is a royal road to immortality and glory, not a sign of falsehood and disgrace.
I wish the above idea about Mohammed was original.
Because my analysis of it is robust and it can stand on its own.
However, the claim of originality, in this case, goes to someone else.
I have neither the time nor the desire to find out who the originator of this idea is.
I've already established, with the help of Randolfo, Badawi's book as a secondary reference.
This book is, particularly, important. Because it references most of the primary sources, namely the ancient poems of Arabian poets, relevant to this matter.
If you realize that Muslims, through the ages, have done everything in their power to erase the pre-Islamic name of their Messiah from the scrolls of history, you will appreciate how difficult the task of locating the primary sources is.
The process of uncovering the true name of Mohammed consists of four parts:
[1] Linguistic analysis of the word "Mohammed": Meaning, root, use, origin, etc.
[2] Context analysis of how it is used in the Quran and various Islamic rituals.
[3] Historical review of Islamic and pre-Islamic naming systems of people, in Arabia.
[4] Locating primary sources, mainly ancient anti-Mohammedan poems.
The first three parts, in my opinion, are the most important in clenching the argument and establishing the truth of this case. Because it is possible for Moslems to doubt the objectivity of the primary sources and claim they were anti-Mohammed propaganda. But they have no defense whatsoever against rigorous linguistic analysis and the complete difference between pre-Islamic and Islamic naming systems. The former is pagan in its origin. And the latter is simply an import from the Bible with some Islamic peculiarities.

 

[AAF]

Originally posted by Randolfo
Interesting idea, but to answer your question, here is a quote as to why you should post sources (with proper attribution):
To Pakman, Thanks , you have a good idea for anyone that is proposing such wild ideas or thoughts, to back them up with facts

These links may shed some light on this topic:
[2]
http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache...eal+Name+of+the+Muslim+Messiah&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
[2]
http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache...+the+original+name+of+Mohammed&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

 

[Markx]

Re: Re: Re: Islam has it backwards

Originally posted by Randolfo
Is violence all you know? Bad X, bad, bad!

Scared now?? How come? didn't they teach you how to fight in Baptist churches? I mean they teach, hate, they teach lies, ignorance and read you mythical stories...etc.. lol.

all muslims that try to bring down Christianity are from a hate group, usually connected with Amaddya (sic) the 'AHMADIYYA MOVEMENT' http://alhafeez.org/rashid/

lol.. Oh my Jesus. You have found a website. Congrats.

! I hope that brings terror in your heart! (Hmmm, does that make me a terrorist?) Uhhh, 2 Randolfos loose on the world, are you trembling yet?

lol. what on earth have you been drinking.... same wine made out of water???

or rather lack thereof, but islam for logical or reasoning people, what a laugh! I could understand if you were born into it, since most of us are shaped by our upbringing, our society & culture. You are proof that the West lets people explore the bounds of personal belief, or lack thereof, by leaving Christianity. Now let's see if you can ever repeat the process in a muslim country? you'll be dogmeat salami

ahh.. What would happen to you. I am just wondering.When Jesus will reject you, and paul will not be able to save you..... I guess all will be depend on Allah..lol

Watch out my christian Taliban friend.

Man, you are too much fun. Please forgive me for not replying to all of your ranting, I don't have energy to to educate you. Now let me help you by directing you to Islamic Center at Vermont st D town LA . You might learn something. I hope the darkness of ignorace will go away some day.

 

[Markx]

Originally posted by AAF
.

You didn't answer me. Please read my post again and see if you can answer this time.

 

[AAF]

Originally posted by Markx
You didn't answer me. Please read my post again and see if you can answer this time.

What post?
Is it this one:

"AAF, what is the point of your post?? I don't understand. If it was meant as a mockery, then you could do better job then this, if it is meant as a informative post then you have failed yourself.

If I understand correctly, you are trying to say that Muhammed's name wasn't muhammed. Correct? What difference does it make? Muhammed was called Ahmed as well and was called Sadiq- ul Ameen too. What is the difference??

Secondly, your source. First your source so far doesn't exists , I am not saying that you are lying but even if it does, it holds no ground. Why believe a one unknown individual over million authentic sources? What would you believe world history written by Jessie Jackson or a world history written by 5000 shcolars from all over the world? Do you see my point?

One man against the world. Was he there? did he hear himself people called that name? Please give me a reason to believe and I will. However it doesn't make any difference to me but it would be nice to see what you have to back it all up"!?!
CORRECTION:
It's wrong to say: "Muhammed was called Ahmed".
Because Muhammed claimed only in his Quran that Allah named him 'Ahmed' in the Bible, and the Christians and the jews had deleted that name from their copies of the Bible, when they realized he is "UMMI" i.e gentile.

 

[Markx]

Originally posted by AAF

It's wrong to say: "Muhammed was called Ahmed".
Because Muhammed claimed only in his Quran that Allah named him 'Ahmed' in the Bible, and the Christians and the jews had deleted that name from their copies of the Bible, when they realized he is "UMMI" i.e gentile.

well at least you tried. I am glad you got that part right.

 

[AAF]

Originally posted by Markx
well at least you tried. I am glad you got that part right.

Good! So it is the post.
You wrote: "your source so far doesn't exists".
How many times I told you that the primary source about the original name of Mohammed---Abu Ba'aja---is the ancient Arabian poetry, and that Abdur Rahman Badawi's book [A history of Atheism in Islam] references all those relevant poems.
You, also, said: "Why believe a one unknown individual over million authentic sources? What would you believe world history written by Jessie Jackson or a world history written by 5000 shcolars from all over the world? Do you see my point"?
I'm surprised you said that. As I gathered from your previous posts you were a Christian, then heretic, then atheist, and finally a new convert to Islam! How on Earth you did all that with such timid attitude towards authorities of big numbers!
I would only say this to you: In the long run only the truth that does matter.
Finally you posted: "One man against the world. Was he there? did he hear himself people called that name? Please give me a reason to believe and I will. However it doesn't make any difference to me but it would be nice to see what you have to back it all up"!!!
Again I wonder how you feel about this:
You believe Islam is true. But the people of Europe, the people of North America, the people of Central America, the people of South America, the people of Australia, the people of China, Japan, and India, the people of most of Africa, not to mention the people of the Pacific and the Indian ocean, all believe Islam---your religion---is plainly false. Is that doesn't bother you? "Do you see my point"?
I hope you do.

 

[Pakman]

AAF, I hope you know your entire post is just opinion. Your sources don't exist.

You didn't even know exactly about the book about "History of Atheism in Islam" until Randolfo posted a story to it. While researching into your post, I did find that book, but I didn't post anything about it. Why?

1. Because I could not find any other links to it.
2. And because you would just continue blabbling about it and so saying that's the book and so.

Your posts mean nothing. Squat. Zero. Nada. Zip. Nothing. I have tried to tolerate you, but now your ranting about this and that saying it's false and so is annoying me. Let me remind you that in a Religon forum, everyone here is to respect other people's religion whether or not we agree or disagree with it!

If you are going to participate, participate decently like everyone else does. I hate lecturing you, but since I'm not a mod, I can't close this topic, or else I would have long ago! Have a nice day.

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by Pakman
If you are going to participate, participate decently like everyone else does. I hate lecturing you, but since I'm not a mod, I can't close this topic, or else I would have long ago! Have a nice day.

What! and have everyone agreeing with each other, what would be the point of having a forum then?

Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion, have a nice day.

 

[Pakman]

Originally posted by Vienna
What! and have everyone agreeing with each other, what would be the point of having a forum then?

Everyone is entitled to have their own opinion, have a nice day.

Not to the point saying my god is better than your god. I have the real god. Your religion is fake and false.

The other person does not think that. To him, his religion is real. There is a way of discussing religion.

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by Pakman
Not to the point saying my god is better than your god. I have the real god. Your religion is fake and false.

The other person does not think that. To him, his religion is real. There is a way of discussing religion.

And why shouldn't the "other person" believe that he/she is following their true God.

Are you not following your true God???

If you can't handle forums ...well...have a nice day.

 

[Markx]

Originally posted by Pakman
Not to the point saying my god is better than your god. I have the real god. Your religion is fake and false.

The other person does not think that. To him, his religion is real. There is a way of discussing religion.

But this is not the way of dicussion of fundamentlist christians, same thing for extremist muslims. Vienna is kind a guy we deal with evey now and then in our local mosques. They come and yell and scream and ask the same kind of questions but they never like the answers. They are responsible for their own acts and they will carry their own burden, on the day of Judgement, when Eisa(Jesus) will simply deny the fact about Holy trinity and the Scarificed for sin concept, they will be very disapointed. Since Jesus never said Worship him, neither he said I am GOD, but yet they believe in that myth.

However he is entitled of his views, his extreme views. His views are like of taliban, you can call them Christian Talibans, remember how they fell, exactly that is how they will fall. Pakman, if you live in usa you must have come across some of them, you can always visit any southern baptist church or ask any of them about their views on Islam oron other sects of christianity they hate them, you will be astonish to see how they will respond. Drop dead ignorant. They believe what the church tells them or what the conservative radio and tv stations tell them. To them there is nothing out side the church and their spiritual leaders are the only truth. Sad but it is a reality. You will not see this kind of extremism in any other sect of christianty.

 

[Vienna]

Hello Marx

Originally posted by Markx
But this is not the way of dicussion of fundamentlist christians, same thing for extremist muslims. Vienna is kind a guy we deal with evey now and then in our local mosques.

Never have I or do I ever intend to enter a mosque.

They come and yell and scream and ask the same kind of questions but they never like the answers.

Now why would I want to yell and scream in a mosque?????

They are responsible for their own acts and they will carry their own burden, on the day of Judgement

And that applies to everyone on this planet.

when Eisa(Jesus) will simply deny the fact about Holy trinity and the Scarificed for sin concept, they will be very disapointed. Since Jesus never said Worship him, neither he said I am GOD, but yet they believe in that myth.

Explain why Jesus would "Simply deny the fact about Holy Trinity and the sacrificed for sin concept???

However he is entitled of his views, his extreme views. His views are like of taliban, you can call them Christian Talibans, remember how they fell, exactly that is how they will fall.

My views are not extreme, I have enough problems with my own beliefs without some violent arrogant people forcing their ugly ideas on me, and that makes the whole idea of faith repulsive. I would rather be atheist than a muslim.

They believe what the church tells them or what the conservative radio and tv stations tell them. To them there is nothing out side the church and their spiritual leaders are the only truth. Sad but it is a reality. You will not see this kind of extremism in any other sect of christianty.

Scuse me, I believe what I want to believe, I am a free person, and I don't go for any bullshite that is thrown at me, especially muslim bullshite. I certainly don't need Churches or any media to make my mind up for me. I have enough problems with the ideas of Jesus, but if a God does exist it is only through the Christian way. So please don't shove the repulsive idea of another way to God down my throat. It only makes the idea of faith ridiculous.

I am curious to know why you think Jesus would "Simply deny the fact about Holy Trinity and the sacrificed for sin concept???

 

[Proud_Syrian]

CAN JESUS BE GOD WHEN HE HIMSELF WORSHIPPED GOD ????

Let us look at Luke 5:16 "And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into the wilderness and prayed to his God." Here we see that Jesus had a God, a supreme God, who is higher than him and stronger than him. Jesus was God's servant and he prayed to God so God would strengthen him more and reinforce him with patience and desire to continue his mission in spreading the word of God Almighty.

Also, let us look at Matthew 26:39 "And going a little way forward, he (Jesus) fell upon his face, praying and saying 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.' " Here in this verse we see two things: (1) Jesus bowed down on his face and prayed in submission to his GOD in obedience. (2) Jesus was begging his GOD to let the cup pass away from him. Jesus did not have the power to will it for himself and make the cup pass away from Jesus. GOD had to do it for Jesus !. How can Jesus be the Creator of this Universe, the all knowing, most powerful??!!

Also, let us look at Matthew 26:42 "Again, for the second time, he (Jesus) went off and prayed, saying: 'My Father, if it is not possible for this to pass away except I drink it, let your will take place.'" My comments on this verse are similar to the above one (Matthew 26:39), Jesus begged his GOD to will what Jesus wanted to happen. Jesus couldn't will it by himself.

Also, let us look at Matthew 26:44 "So leaving them, he (Jesus) went off and prayed for the third time, saying once more the same word." Here we see that Jesus for the third time begged his GOD to will what Jesus wished for in Matthew 26:39 above. How can Jesus be the Creator of this Universe if he (1) begs, and (2) lacks power?!

 

[Pakman]

Originally posted by Vienna
Never have I or do I ever intend to enter a mosque.

Very well. If you had, you would have learned that the Quran does not say anything about the world being flat, as you think it says. You would also learn that men did not write the Quran, as you think it happened.

Explain why Jesus would "Simply deny the fact about Holy Trinity and the sacrificed for sin concept???

Because Jesus(pbuh) has never said that according to Muslims. The Bible has been changed by the hands of men to say that. God has no equal. He is One. We believe in the Oneness of God and Jesus(pbuh), not in 3 gods. Jesus will come on and say himself that it was indeed changed.

Look at it this way. I tell you a story and you tell that story to someone else. About 10 people down, the story could become something else. You would have added or removed something in teling it. And the other person would have done the same. This is how it was with Jesus(pbuh). That is why Mohammad(pbuh) was sent after Jesus to correct that.

The sin concept is wrong because everyone man is responsible for their own actions. The way Christanity works is that you can live a live of sins, but before you die, except Jesus as your savior and you go to heaven.

In Islam, it is not like that. Good deeds bring you good stuff and heaven. Bad deeds bring you bad stuff and hell.

 

[Markx]

Originally posted by Vienna
Hello Marx


Never have I or do I ever intend to enter a mosque.

Why not?? If I could enter, mosques, churches, gardwara's, manders to learn and to understand other's faith, why can't you do the same? I hope you are not afraid that what you learn is different then what you were taught.


Now why would I want to yell and scream in a mosque?????

You might, since other suthern baptists do that all the time.





Explain why Jesus would "Simply deny the fact about Holy Trinity and the sacrificed for sin concept???

Like I said, wait till you die and I will wait for my death. It will settle this dispute. Correct? If I am wrong I will go to hell and if you are......then you know what!!


My views are not extreme, I have enough problems with my own beliefs without some violent arrogant people forcing their ugly ideas on me, and that makes the whole idea of faith repulsive. I would rather be atheist than a muslim.

For the first time you atleast admit that you have issues. Again, can you show me where I shove my religion to your throat? Please do not fabricate things, there have been enough fabrication from your side. It is a good idea to be an atheist instead of being a christian. Atleast an Atheist can think out the box and make more sense then a christian fundo.


Scuse me, I believe what I want to believe, I am a free person, and I don't go for any bullshite that is thrown at me, especially muslim bullshite. I certainly don't need Churches or any media to make my mind up for me. I have enough problems with the ideas of Jesus, but if a God does exist it is only through the Christian way. So please don't shove the repulsive idea of another way to God down my throat. It only makes the idea of faith ridiculous.

Good to see that you admiting the problem with Jesus's ideas. It is a good start. But you know what you have done and what you do as a christian or as a evangilist or S baptist.


I am curious to know why you think Jesus would "Simply deny the fact about Holy Trinity and the sacrificed for sin concept???

Save your criousity for death. You don't care what I say any ways ...correct?? You don't want to listen anything but what you wishes to listen. Look friend, you know that you have extreme views about every one who doesn't agree with you and you know it well.

This forum has discussed the fabrication of holy trinity and original sin and Jesus's scarfice etc etc so many times that I don't think any one is even interested talking about it. But if you still want we can start a new thread.