THE REAL [GOD] = ALLAH ...... join here you all need to know

[Michael]

No, not all forms are slavery are illegal, a government can capture prisoners of war from among enemy soldiers.

Lets say that during a war an Indian garrison happened to capture YOU.

Would you would be happy living as a Slave in servitude to your Indian Master in the conditions you describe for Slaves?

YES
or
NO

Michael

 

[Michael]

Fears over Afghan convert trial The US leads appeals to Afghanistan over a Muslim convert to Christianity who could be sentenced to death.

Islam is the perfect and most just system in the world.

So what are your thoughts on this?
Do you think that maybe this Muslim guy that converted to Christianity be put to DEATH for his conversion?

Michael

 

[DiamondHearts]

Prisoner of war is a common practice and is not only reserved for Muslims. And yes India and Pakistan, China, US all take prisoners of war.

I believe the Americans heavy handed dictates and support of evangelist groups has gotten out of hand and the Americans cannot even do anything to stop the disobedience of their slave nation of Karzai's tiny Kabul city state, while the rest of the country is pushing into traditional rule.

Peace.

 

[Michael]

Prisoner of war is a common practice and is not only reserved for Muslims. And yes India and Pakistan, China, US all take prisoners of war.

I believe the Americans heavy handed dictates and support of evangelist groups has gotten out of hand and the Americans cannot even do anything to stop the disobedience of their slave nation of Karzai's tiny Kabul city state, while the rest of the country is pushing into traditional rule.

Peace.

DiamondHearts,
(A) Are you going to answer my questions?
(B) They are simple YES or NO questions. Very quick.
That is part of what the forum is for after all.

(C) A Prisoner of war is not the same thing as a Slave.

(D) Yes the WEST sucks so what? YES Xians are crazy? I’m not disagreeing. Christianity sucks. Judaism sucks. Monotheism sucks. Polytheism sucks. People suck. BUT I am not asking, comparing or talking about the WEST. This is not a contest between the WEST NORTH EAST SOUTH and MIDDLE.

My questions are specifically about Islam and Slavery.

(E) So What about the Afghani Xian convert?
What do you think?
Should he be ..... Killed?


Michael

 

[(Q)]

Prisoner of war is a common practice and is not only reserved for Muslims. And yes India and Pakistan, China, US all take prisoners of war.

So, you see no difference between a prisoner of war and a slave? All prisoners can be considered slaves?

 

[(Q)]

No, not all forms are slavery are illegal, a government can capture prisoners of war from among enemy soldiers. Also, servants are a form of slavery, but they are paid, fed, clothed, and individuals in their own right. Islam does not have problems with these, but other forms are illegal.

So, we've already established that there is no difference between a prisoner of war and a slave, according to Islam. Now your saying that the employment of being a butler or maid is also slavery?

Come now, you can't be THAT ignorant, could you?

Scholars have ruled slavery as illegal, except prisoner of war and servants. The Quran said those who free the slaves will get great reward from Allah in this life and the afterlife.

Muslim Scholars, no doubt. That would appear to be a contradiction in terms.

 

[GeoffP]

There are still black Arab people in the Middle East. Ever been to Yemen, Oman, or even Egypt?

They lived there already. Nice try. I note also that the author mentions 'deliberate interference' with fertility. Castration and exposure, anyone? Such gentle phrases we have for such horror.

Are you ever going to answer Michael? He poses very valid questions.

Geoff

 

[The Devil Inside]

Judaism sucks.

im jewish, but im not hostile toward your statement.
i just wonder why exactly you say so.

notice, diamondhearts: i dont call for his death or insult him...i just ask him why.

you should come learn from me.

keep on truckin, michael. you make some good points.
:m:

 

[Michael]

im jewish, but im not hostile toward your statement.
i just wonder why exactly you say so.

notice, diamondhearts: i dont call for his death or insult him...i just ask him why.

you should come learn from me.

keep on truckin, michael. you make some good points.
:m:

Thanks,

Well, I suppose that I should say, being atheist, I don’t see much of a difference between Islam, Christianity and Judaism. Each religious group is mainly made of good people and these religious beliefs themselves are fairly identical. Sort of like the different sects of Buhddism in Japan. Its very hard to tell one from another.

My problem with religious belief is the way in which religion is itself used by those to control the religious. It`s that manipulation which sucks. I do understand that religions (or better... belief) fill a basic psychological need and so long as there is inequality, unhappiness, disappointment, death … (basically as long as there is humanity) there will always be religion.

That said, as a Jew, do you believe in a Jewish race? If so, how so? (I don’t think race is a worthwhile term anymore – antiquated really).

Also, do you think that people of the Jewish religion are a chosen people? If so, What does that actually mean?

What are your thoughts on the Palestinians that actually lost their home and land in the last war. Lets say, for example, there is a child that had lived in his parents house on some land and then after the war he/she lived in a Refugee Camp. That doesn’t seem very fair? While their parents did lose the war, Shouldn`t they get their home back?

Do you believe that anyone can “convert” to become Jewish? That is, not be born from a Jewish mother but just decide - I want to be Jewish. As I understand it, some Jews think yeah sure and others think, OMG no - you are either born a Jew or you’re born a gentile.

I wonder, in today’s age, should the later should considered a “Religion” ? It almost sounds like a “Cult” based around blood-lineages? I guess that begs the question "what is a religion and what is a cult?" Are religions for ALL people to try out or only for the select?

Would it be OK to have a "religion" that only lets light skinned people come in but says no to people with dark skin? Or would that be a cult?

Lastly, what are your thoughts on the Gilgamesh flood myth and how it made its way into the then emerging Jewish religion?


Cheers,
Michael

 

[DiamondHearts]

im jewish, but im not hostile toward your statement.
i just wonder why exactly you say so.

notice, diamondhearts: i dont call for his death or insult him...i just ask him why.

you should come learn from me.

keep on truckin, michael. you make some good points.
:m:

... when did I call for his death?

Isn't that in itself generalizing.

The only thing I have a problem with Michael is he lies to convince people of his viewpoint. Therefore, how can you have an intelligent conversation with a blatant liar?

I do not agree with or respect any of his viewpoints? He is an unreliable source of information.

Also, it would be better not to encourage people who lie to further their points.

Peace.

 

[Michael]

Cabinet meets to discuss convert's case

"The Quran is very clear, and the words of our prophet are very clear. There can only be one outcome: death," said cleric Khoja Ahmad Sediqi, who is also a member of the Supreme Court.


Wow, thank lack-of God I don`t live in Afghanistan, talk about a meme gone bad ... You know, to me, when you compare the two memes, Xianity and Islam, it become obvious that without this particular threat combined with poor living coniditions, that is, a fear of being attacked (another religiously tuned DNA strand) ... then Islam is doomed. Xianity plays much more heavily on the human psyche. Even the combination of death and salvation in their dieing God-Man hits a cord buried deep in our DNA. Xianity has become more highly evolved .. hence Xianity doesn`t need to make these sorts of threats anymore.

Ooooo scary



Anyway, Seriously, is the Qur`an really so clear on the matter? Poor Muslims they must look at this situation and think OMG eveyone is finding everything out.....! Shit Shit Shit!!!!



Michael

 

[Michael]

... The only thing I have a problem with Michael is he lies to convince people of his viewpoint. Therefore, how can you have an intelligent conversation with a blatant liar?

Please feel free to elaborate, name calling really is a bit much DiamondHearts.

Maybe you are talking about the Slavery in the Islamic Middle East? Again DiamondHearts, history doesn’t lie. When you called one site I used anti-Islamic, for detailing when Muslims waged war in Pakistan/India, I provided you with another. I provided you with the EXACT dates of when Saudi Arabia and Yemen (1962) and the Ottoman Empire (1857) made slavery against the Law. They were well into the 19th and 20th centuries, much later then your “centuries ago” (I asked you to provide a reference for this claim – which did not).

Also, I have asked you a series of questions. Ones that you only need to answer with a simple YES or NO. I’ll have to suppose that these hit to close to the mark and hence you have avoided answering them.

Lastly, as to my supposition: Are Islamic countries that have banned ALL forms of Slavery in line with the Qur’an? (another question you avoided to answer) well that is a debate within some Islamic communities themselves (in KSA for example).

Questions by their very nature are not lies – but they do reveal lies. All of us here have seen it a number of times, a religiously minded person gets too close to the truth. The defense mechanisms start kicking in overtime. Attack the messenger. Attack the question. Quit. But they eventually start searching again, because there is this nagging need to know the truth. That is the whole point in these sorts of forums you know.

Well then DiamondHearts, you need to call me a liar, you go ahead and do that.


Take care,

Michael

 

[DiamondHearts]

I am calling you a liar because you have lied many times to convey your points. I will now bring examples if you still don't believe me.

http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=52869

Overall Pakistanis are backwards, are another artificial country and lacks a unified culture, has little natural resources and is therefore of less strategic value when compared to India.

The Indian Hindu and Buddhist, native religions to the area, were replaced with an Arab religion. So to me this is a loss of culture. But you seem to think this was a good thing? To lose your culture?

You are strong?

Why?

Because you can kill people with a nuclear bomb? Big f*cking la-dee-daa.

Sorry to break it to you DiamondHearts but;
YOU were the CONQUORED.
YOU were the CONVERTED.
YOUR forefathers were the RULED.
YOURS was the CULTURE LOST.

That is why I think Pakistanis haven’t a "true" culture. It was replaced and you don’t even seem to know it. The Indians retained their Native culture and they are unified and they are going forward. Pakistan will be lucky to jump on India’s coattails and perhaps get a boost from the halo effect.

Pakistan is a country that was created by England. To me Pakistan is the Indians that FORGOT their culture. To bad too because it IS a great culture.

Sorry if my point of view is a little harsh but until you can qualify why Pakistan is a modern forward thinking country that has, or stands a good chance to, contribute to the betterment of humanity, then I can not but help think it’s a tribal backwards thinking society.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=53219

As to Pakistan, it does have a growing economy based around labor, but they can in no way compete with India and China both terms of raw labor and soon to be educated populous. Pakistan is also stuck with the very old-fashioned idea that Religious Law should be used to rule the people. While that system had a place 5000 years ago it’s been superseded in countries with educated populous. That Pakistan STILL uses this antiquated system is a telltale sign that Pakistan isn’t setting itself up for longer-term success. As such, Pakistan is not given the amount of attention due India. The best I can see Pakistan doing is becoming the labor pool for the Atheistic Chinese in the future.

Its only the West and now East where the average person now has some wealth. Pakistan will remain poor as long as it remains strongly religious. History shows, that when religion is removed from power, then people prosper.

Look at the following people and think how they were conquored and what happened to their culture and then their society:

Tibetans by the Communist Chinese
Aboriginal Australians by the English
Moiré by the English
Native Americans by the English
Aztec by the Spanish
Pakistan by the Arabs.

In this thread

There are a few people alive today that can remember slavery in Turkey. It was outlawed by the Europeans not the Muslims. Muslim Kurds were routinely employed by the ruling Turks to sell Muslim Arabs in Arabia! That is common History, any Turk should be able to tell you that much.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=53474

Many of the ideas in Judaism evolved from the beliefs of the Assyrians, whose religion is obviously very much the older of the two. At some point in time, some of Jews crossed the Arabian Desert into Arabia and there practiced Judaism. It should be noted that the Arabian Desert is a fairly decent barrier to travel. In the isolated context of Arabia, Judaism combined with the local Arabic polytheistic religions and over time a new Religion emerged – Islam. This is evident because some of the beliefs, religious-symbols and religious-festivals of modern Muslims have roots stretching back far before Islam. For example; the Moon is a special symbol of polytheistic Arabic origin - which now has a special place in the Islamic society.

After sometime in Arabia, Judaism inspired a religious leader, Mohammed, and he gathered some followers and was considered a prophet of Allah. Over the centuries grand Mosques were built and other enlightened religious figures (Imams) became powerful. Soon the entire society repositioned its culture to worship Islam. Incidentally, it’s not always easy to change a native religion, of course some wars were fought along the way - the Muslims came out on top. Although now everyone is a Muslim, there have been arguments as to what Allah would want and, as usually happens, other schools of Islam have evolved and each has many followers today: for example the Sunni and Shia.

Most Muslims are not very educated and would be surprised to realize many of their beliefs are pre-Islam and are a combination of Judaism and Arab nature worship.

Anyway, now Islam is the State Religion in Arabia. Most Arabians believe in Islam, raise their children to believe in Islam and would be god smacked to think it was anything other than the divine religion they always been taught to believe it is.

As you will see, your arguments are mainly based on a weak lie (mostly by Hindu extremists, your main sources for your copy and paste info) that Pakistan was forced into Islam, while in fact, Pakistanis converted from Hinduism to Islam on their own, then migrated to Pakistan. If you have ever been to Pakistan, most of the people are from all regions of India and came to Pakistan for protection of their lives and religion in 1947. Also, those who don't know anything of Islamic history should not post their misinformation to help create hatred against Muslims.

Peace.

 

[(Q)]

I am calling you a liar because you have lied many times to convey your points. I will now bring examples if you still don't believe me.

Nope, still don't believe you.

Also, those who don't know anything of Islamic history should not post their misinformation to help create hatred against Muslims.

Then, you shouldn't post anything about Islamic history as you have shown not to know anything about it other than the propaganda you spout.

 

[GeoffP]

I am calling you a liar because you have lied many times to convey your points. I will now bring examples if you still don't believe me.

Show where he lied. Bring your proofs if ye are truthful. I've seen no evidence of Q lying anywhere.

This is ridiculous.

Geoff

 

[Michael]

No I do not see any lies but what I do see is a major difference of opinion.

From my point of view.

*** At first I see you stubbornly trying to refuse to even consider that Arabs conquered the northern part of India. Then you do a 180 and agree Arabs did conquer the area - but of course that was only because of “Pirates”.

I asked you to find a credible history of India and the spread of Islam in India.
Where is it?
I will surely read it so long as it is academic.

I will leave you with a series of intelligent questions you simply ignored: Had Islam truly been a vehicle for the liberation of Hindu society from the evils of Brahminism (as is repeatedly proclaimed – and you claimed), then how was it that three centuries after the unqualified triumph of "Islam" in Sindh, Hindu society continued to survive just next door in Punjab, and the Islamic faith was able to win few converts amongst the majority of the Hindus, and not even amongst the discriminated caste communities? And had Sindh become this great center of learning and culture after its conquest by Bin Qasim, how was it that Al-Beruni (an avowed Muslim) was studying Hindu scientific texts in Punjab, but not "Islamic" scientific texts in Sindh?

The last bit is particularly telling, AND, you will also notice that this says (even amongst the discriminated caste communities). You of course do not have a problem with this statement and therefore didn’t notice it - because that is something you agree with. Why would a pro-Hindu nationalist website say such a thing? It wouldn`t. It would just neglect to mention it. Or outright deny it ever was so.

This is obviously an even handed website that is giving you some information that you didn`t know because you have been given a sugar-coated pro-Islam history.
All societies have their evils.
Mine would be the Amercian Slave Trade.
Tell me DiamondHearts, do you know any of yours?
Where you taught any?
Surely you’re not so naive to think there weren’t any?

*** I see you trying in vain to justify Islam’s acceptance of the institution of Slavery. OK, I admit it – I think that ANY form of Slavery is horrid. I would think that any “sane” person would agree with me that ALL FORMS slavery are wrong!
ALL FORMS!!!
Not some but ALL.
Yet here we have the Qur’an says SOME forms are fine and dandy. I am sure that you, being a sane person, would otherwise agree with me on this one. BUT because of the Qur’an you instead believe that SOME forms of Slavery are OK.
YET, deep down you know this is not right.
How do I know that?
Because when I ask if you’d be happy being a Hindu’s Slave (in essence reversing the roles of Master and Slave) …… ….. ….. silence.

*** Yes, in my opinion, religious based societies are backwards. That is not a “lie” that is my “opinion”. They are not modern forms of government, they are definitely not forward-thinking and history shows that they have only brought suffering to the majority of people and wealth/power to the few.

Let me give you some examples where something horrendous happened because a State is combined with Religion:
(1) Spanish Inquisition

Muslim Spain had proved a safe haven for Jews, and quickly became the center of Jewish intellectual life and Jews remained largely on the Muslim side during Reconquista....Over 200,000 Jews were eventually expelled, many of whom fled to Turkey or North Africa, but most went to other Christian countries, and thousands died during the expulsion. A significant number fled to Rome where the pope provided patronage and protection....Agostino Borromeo, an historian of Catholicism at the Sapienza University in Rome, writes that about 125,000 people were tried by church tribunals as suspected heretics in Spain. Of these, about 1,200 - 2,000 were actually executed, although more killings were performed by non-church tribunals.

That doesn’t strike you as backwards? Destroying peoples lives and sometimes even killing them for their belief? That’s disgusting and sick … AGREED?? And also part of my ARGUMENT on why religious countries are backwards. Perhaps this Muslim-friendly version will now allow you to see it? Its part of those Dark Ages I was talking about. When people tried like hell to get the f*ck out of Europe and its perverse Christianity and over to America which was free of Religious rule.
(2) Saudi police 'stopped' fire rescue

Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.
In a rare criticism of the kingdom's powerful "mutaween" police, the Saudi media has accused them of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday.

THAT doesn’t strike you are backwards? That`s so f*cking disgusting it makes me want to puke. These Islamic Morality Police are hired by the State and they Murdered 15 girls for not wearing the right clothes? Oh, but like Slavery, some people can find an excuse to justify just about anything if they think their so called Holy Book says its OK.
(3) Cabinet meets to discuss convert's case

"The Qur’an is very clear, and the words of our prophet are very clear. There can only be one outcome: death," said cleric Khoja Ahmad Sediqi, who is also a member of the Supreme Court.

THAT doesn’t strike you are backwards? AND you have the ADASITY to say the HINDU are persecuting the Muslims? Hello…. Are you blind??

Lastly, its funny you read through the post on Tibetans with no problem. Yet, you read the EXACT context with the names and places switched and it makes no sense?
Well, try thinking on this for a bit.
The first statement on Tibet made sense. It seems plausible. You said so yourself.
The second statement also makes sense. It is JUST as plausible as the first.

The only reason you cannot see that is because the second statement is about your religion. Unlike the first statement, you cannot think rationally about your own religion.

Here’s a great post that says as much only more aptly than I:
Understanding Delusion I suggest anyone to read it.

By the way, this is a religious forum; expect some differing points of view. Those are not lies, they are other ideas. If you want to prove otherwise you will need to reference a credible source. I try to do as much, and felt that you had a point on the first website (which I said as much) but the later two were fine.


Cheers,

Michael

 

[Godless]

Well said Michael, and with that I thank you for the history lesson also.

Here are a few friends of mine:
Islamic Comic Book

History of Jihad

Institute for the secularization of Islamic society

Last but not least; Faith Freedom International

Godless

 

[Michael]

I like the Testimonies section of ISIS

Here a good one:
Date:
02 Jun 2003
Time:
16:17:05
Comments
Among many things about Islam and Mohammad that confuse me, one that really angers me is his wedding with his daughter-in-law. This story is appalling! He had adopted a boy whom he nurtured as his son. He had his son marry a beautiful young woman and every thing was fine and dandy. But one day, Mohammad saw some portion of her body when he went to see his son. Mohammad came back home, called his son and told him that he should divorce his wife so that he (Mohammad!) could marry her. When people of Medina screamed bloody murder on this sacriligious act, very conveniently a verse was dropped on his head which allowed him to marry the wife of an adopted son!!!

That was written by a Pakistani Muslim that quit Islam. So what is this verse about? I`ve read it like 5 times as a reason for a Muslim to leave Islam. It sounds like a truly crazy verse.

Michael

 

[Michael]

I was thinking: THE REAL [GOD] = ALLAH ...... join here you all need to know, has been a real apt title, this has been an informative thread for me.

 

[Sock puppet path]

That was written by a Pakistani Muslim that quit Islam. So what is this verse about? I`ve read it like 5 times as a reason for a Muslim to leave Islam. It sounds like a truly crazy verse.

Michael

Here you go Micheal check the out the verse that segues into it "don't disagree with what allah AND mohammed decide or you are a non-believer". Then of course he wraps the whole thing up as if it was happening anyway

This is what Al Tabari recorded on this.

Imam Tabari wrote (History of Tabari, vol 8):

"One day Muhammad went out looking for Zaid (Mohammed's adopted son). Now there was a covering of hair cloth over the doorway, but the wind had lifted the covering so that the doorway was uncovered. Zaynab was in her chamber, undressed, and admiration for her entered the heart of the Prophet".

The admiration was noticed by Zainab. She mentioned it to her husband Zaid later. He rushed to his father's house and offered Zainab to him. Mohammed worried about possible bad press and refused to accept it. But Allah will not take no for an answer and sent an instant revelation insisting on their union.

And these are the resultant revelations .

033.036
YUSUFALI: It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.
PICKTHAL: And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.
SHAKIR: And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying.

033.037
YUSUFALI: Behold! Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour: "Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah." But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah's command must be fulfilled.
PICKTHAL: And when thou saidst unto him on whom Allah hath conferred favour and thou hast conferred favour: Keep thy wife to thyself, and fear Allah. And thou didst hide in thy mind that which Allah was to bring to light, and thou didst fear mankind whereas Allah hath a better right that thou shouldst fear Him. So when Zeyd had performed that necessary formality (of divorce) from her, We gave her unto thee in marriage, so that (henceforth) there may be no sin for believers in respect of wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have performed the necessary formality (of release) from them. The commandment of Allah must be fulfilled.
SHAKIR: And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.