The Qur'an

[iceaura]

Or the last 100 presumably, but who's counting? Or even remotely interested?

Except as part of the volunteer army that does the grunt work.

But not the grunt work of "American society", which had to be panicked and deceived and manipulated at the cost of enormous effort and hundreds of millions of dollars to even grudgingly fail to resist this operation.

So we agree that we need a different comparison than the "self interest" of the "societies" involved?

 

[S.A.M.]

But not the grunt work of "American society", which had to be panicked and deceived and manipulated at the cost of enormous effort and hundreds of millions of dollars to even grudgingly fail to resist this operation.

So when they were making money from imperial hegemony and living the lifestyle it engendered, it was fine, but now that they are losing money they are no longer culpable?

So we agree that we need a different comparison than the "self interest" of the "societies" involved?

Indeed. Apparently we need to redefine representation too.

 

[iceaura]

So when they were making money from imperial hegemony and living the lifestyle it engendered, it was fine, but now that they are losing money they are no longer culpable?

Your bs economics are not involved in comparing the "self interest" of societies, neither is "culpability", let alone the evil societal planning you seem to have imagined was going on, and the relevance of any of this to the Quran.

 

[S.A.M.]

Your bs economics are not involved in comparing the "self interest" of societies, neither is "culpability", let alone the evil societal planning you seem to have imagined was going on, and the relevance of any of this to the Quran.

I'm just extending your notion of cultism to a representative state with a volunteer army and a Bill of Rights.

 

[Michael]

It's quite obvious that the people who regard the Quran as a sacred and perfect revelation of something are not happy about the ways unbelievers describe it after reading the thing.

Another interesting phenomenon is how people perceive the document AFTER the apostate.

Kind of like the Jim Jones sort of cults. While in there, they can't see anything other than the words of Gods flowing from The Prophet's lips. Yes, after they leave, suddenly it all seems so crazy they could have ever believed in such bullshit. Like a dream. I know people who lived as Muslims their entire life and truly believed in much the same way as SAM or 786 and yet after they left Islam, all of a sudden the Qur'an seemed simple (and Allah even childish!) - albeit poetic sounding.

Now take the case of fervent Muslims who leave Islam and become Christians. All of a sudden the Qur'an seems idiotic, even evil, while the Bible suddenly become Godly and Perfect.

I wish we could somehow fMRI people before, during and after the transition. Very very interesting. Well, we'll get there.

 

[iceaura]

I'm just extending your notion of cultism to a representative state with a volunteer army and a Bill of Rights.

Nothing of mine is involved with whatever you are doing.

 

[GeoffP]

Not quite the same thing as threatening unbelievers.

Besides: Those are short, interjections - and not that common, actually: certainly not the sexual intercourse with Jesus ones.

The Quran threats are ornate and extended and on every single page.

But the cult picture is filling in, and no mistake.

I'm sure this point will go the wrong way, but there does appear to be a common ending prayer for the "destruction of the unbeliever" in some mosque sermons. I don't know what the extent of it is, although it sounds like it might not be uncommon. Perhaps this would be a major talking point for change.

 

[786]

Now take the case of fervent Muslims who leave Islam and become Christians. All of a sudden the Qur'an seems idiotic, even evil, while the Bible suddenly become Godly and Perfect.

I wish we could somehow fMRI people before, during and after the transition. Very very interesting. Well, we'll get there.

I think this goes on to show how stupid people are than anything about the Quran.

BTW the Quran itself says that many people will find the straight path when they read the Quran while some will go astray reading the SAME Quran. This is logic that the Quran already included I didn't think it could be any simpler (for smart people), if only people actually read the Quran before asking questions which are already answered IN the very thing they question about (Quran).

Oh well I'm not even following this thread, I'm just looking for post that quote me

Peace be unto you

 

[S.A.M.]

Nothing of mine is involved with whatever you are doing.

Indeed. So lets compare, what we have here is " a cult document, SAM. The structuring of the thing for hypnotic indoctrination is obvious " such that you see possibly grave repercussions from descriptions of a fiery hell for those who reject the right path espcecially "when it is being employed to launch wars and do murder in the streets".

But you hold as not culpable your own and your society's propensity for violence in a system where you elect your own government and decide if you will join your own volunteer army before going out to destroy entire countries even though this has been the state of your society for the last century or more.

Who's hypnotised here? I believe there is much to be said for understanding justice as an objective moral code, rather than a slippery sliding scale that can be modified to suit self interest. There may be plenty of problems with Muslims, starting with a lack of awareness of the Qur'an, but there is little wrong with their recognition of hypocrisy and injustice.

 

[iceaura]

But you hold as not culpable your own and your society's propensity for violence

No, I don't. You invented that accusation as a debating trick, back a ways.

Who's hypnotised here?

We have to pick one?

believe there is much to be said for understanding justice as an objective moral code, rather than a slippery sliding scale that can be modified to suit self interest.

Sure. So?

There may be plenty of problems with Muslims, starting with a lack of awareness of the Qur'an, but there is little wrong with their recognition of hypocrisy and injustice.

Sensitivity to hypocrisy and injustice on the part of others characterizes the mean, the ugly, and the untrustworthy, most places.

There is plenty wrong with the generally expressed sense of hypocrisy and injustice visible from many Islamic peoples, starting with their abominable treatment of the women in their communities, and spreading from there.

And it is justified by reference to the Quran, whose "objective" moral code seems to have some fairly obvious glitches; starting with its structure and mode of persuasion.

Nothing of mine is involved with whatever you are doing.
”
Indeed. So lets compare,

You forgot to make sense out of that beginning. What are you talking about?

 

[S.A.M.]

There is plenty wrong with the generally expressed sense of hypocrisy and injustice visible from many Islamic peoples, starting with their abominable treatment of the women in their communities, and spreading from there.

And it is justified by reference to the Quran, whose "objective" moral code seems to have some fairly obvious glitches; starting with its structure and mode of persuasion

Indeed, which is why we had Razia Sultan as one of the few women rulers of India and after all that is said and done, the mode of persuasion in the Qur'an seems to contribute much to a society not bent on population replacement and ethnocentric annihilation.

 

[iceaura]

Indeed, which is why we had Razia Sultan as one of the few women rulers of India and after all that is said and done, the mode of persuasion in the Qur'an seems to contribute much to a society not bent on population replacement and ethnocentric annihilation.

Tell it to the Sudanese, the Hindus in Kashmir, the Shia here and the Sunni there and the Kurds everywhere in Iraq.

Incapability is not virtue. Lack of opportunity is not virtue. Decent behavior in the context of capability and opportunity to do evil - that is virtue. And the US people, as a society, are not "bent on" population replacement and ethnocentric annihilation.

 

[S.A.M.]

Tell it to the Sudanese, the Hindus in Kashmir, the Shia here and the Sunni there and the Kurds everywhere in Iraq.

Incapability is not virtue. Lack of opportunity is not virtue. Decent behavior in the context of capability and opportunity to do evil - that is virtue. And the US people, as a society, are not "bent on" population replacement and ethnocentric annihilation.

That is why I said, all said and done. I'm looking at the result of 1400 years of Islam. The US is a society that is based on such a narrative. And it has unfailingly in its life cycle, supported all such narratives without exception and felt no compunction in doing so unless it directly impacted its own self interest.

 

[iceaura]

That is why I said, all said and done. I'm looking at the result of 1400 years of Islam.

There is no such thing as "the result" of 1400 years of Islam.

The US is a society that is based on such a narrative.

Are you attempting to compare "Islam" with the US?

And it has unfailingly in its life cycle, supported all such narratives without exception and felt no compunction in doing so unless it directly impacted its own self interest.

That is false. The US has opposed such narratives, in Japan and in the Philippines and Caribbean Islands and elsewhere, and the US has felt compunction regardless of its "self interest" (as yet an undefined term, of no obvious meaning).

And that narrative plays a secondary and easily (from inside the US) overlooked role - US society is not based on it.

 

[S.A.M.]

There is no such thing as "the result" of 1400 years of Islam.

In general the usefulness of an ideology is demonstrated by the difference between its use and disuse.

Are you attempting to compare "Islam" with the US? That is false. The US has opposed such narratives, in Japan and in the Philippines and Caribbean Islands and elsewhere, and the US has felt compunction regardless of its "self interest" (as yet an undefined term, of no obvious meaning).

And that narrative plays a secondary and easily (from inside the US) overlooked role - US society is not based on it.

We obviously inhabit parallel universes. The US to you, is apparently distinct from what it does, to me it is what it does. Japan, the Phillipines and the Carribean all bear the legacy of such interventions. And the scars.

I find it odd that you consider these policies as representative of opposition to population replacement, especially when the "collateral damages" and the clear westernisation of the allies and hence the society are taken into account. Not to mention the obvious racism displayed against the other. Or do you fail to see how the appearance of normalcy is defined by how closely the society and its values are familiar? Or projected as being so? Or "liberated" until they are? When do you suppose a White House iftaar will be conducted where the hosts respect the guests by wearing a keffiyeh and a thobe?

 

[Michael]

BTW the Quran itself says that many people will find the straight path when they read the Quran while some will go astray reading the SAME Quran. This is logic that the Quran already included I didn't think it could be any simpler (for smart people), if only people actually read the Quran before asking questions which are already answered IN the very thing they question about (Quran)

I've heard Scientologists say the exact same thing and it's exactly as relevant.

Yeah, the great philosophers are all just a little too dim to comprehend the greatness of the Qur'an... pffff

 

[786]

I've heard Scientologists say the exact same thing and it's exactly as relevant.

Yeah, the great philosophers are all just a little too dim to comprehend the greatness of the Qur'an... pffff

Lol.... Whoever said that "great" people can understand the "greatest" thing? Also your statement suggests that these 'great' philosophers knew EVERYTHING.... pffff..... I don't think you realize the stupidity of what you just said.

And I don't think all philosophers read the Quran to begin with.... Perhaps you can quote some of these "great" philosophers regarding the Quran. (And I don't mean you )

Peace be unto you

 

[iceaura]

We obviously inhabit parallel universes. The US to you, is apparently distinct from what it does, to me it is what it does.

No, that fails to describe my positions or this argument.

Japan, the Philippines and the Caribbean all bear the legacy of such interventions. And the scars.

No, they don't. They bear the scars of quite different "interventions", by the US. Japan, for example, has not been subjected to "ethnocentric annihilation" by the US, and remains densely populated by the very same people who have been living there for a long time (the current residents were not as guilt free, of that particular evil, originally).

Different evils have their own names, causes, consequences, etc, and I think it is at best confusing to confuse them.

In general the usefulness of an ideology is demonstrated by the difference between its use and disuse.

Sure. But wrong, evil, bad, and failed "use" is not disuse. When Islamic Pakistan launched the mass rape and massacre of the Bangladesh peoples, for example, that was an example of what you are calling an "ideology" - Islam - in "use". Likewise in the Sudan, currently.

Now, the influence of the Quran on the actions of the people who revere it, support its clerics and scholars, justify their actions by reference to it, and so forth, is debatable. It is obviously in the "self-interest", in some sense, of the Muslims involved to ethnically cleanse the farms and water sources of the Sudan, so that they may inhabit and use them. No sense blaming their "ideology" or whatever one calls their Quranic idolatry, when other explanations lie ready to hand. But it obviously is no adequate defense against the human evils they display, eh?

 

[Michael]

Lol.... Whoever said that "great" people can understand the "greatest" thing? Also your statement suggests that these 'great' philosophers knew EVERYTHING.... pffff..... I don't think you realize the stupidity of what you just said.

And I don't think all philosophers read the Quran to begin with.... Perhaps you can quote some of these "great" philosophers regarding the Quran. (And I don't mean you )

Peace be unto you

I agree that argument from authority is a fallacy. It doesn't prove that the Qur'an and Mohammad is equivalent to Scientology and Ron Hubbard, only that that they are treated equally by learned people the world over.


But hey, I digress, why don't you post something novel that you personally found enlightening from the Qur'an. Teach us of great Sage 786. I'm guessing this is going to be so easy for you. I mean, you have the words of GOD.

pffff... this will be good.

 

[786]

I agree that argument from authority is a fallacy. It doesn't prove that the Qur'an and Mohammad is equivalent to Scientology and Ron Hubbard, only that that they are treated equally by learned people the world over.


But hey, I digress, why don't you post something novel that you personally found enlightening from the Qur'an. Teach us of great Sage 786. I'm guessing this is going to be so easy for you. I mean, you have the words of GOD.

pffff... this will be good.

Don't try to dodge my request.

Anways, What do you consider enlightening?

Peace be unto you