The Qur'an

[Tiassa]

I must confess I'm lost

The point that I find intersting is IF we stop and suppose that the Qur'an is the Words of the CREATOR one would think it would be enlightening enough to at least toss into first year uni! Or that Philosophers down the ages such as Kent, would have stopped and said, hey this is God guy is good. But that's not the case because it's not good. It's actually pretty bad.

Surely the CREATOR can do as good as Kent? Or isn't so subjective as to be no different than Death Metal. If so, then what's the point. Call spade a spade and call it a day.

This is where the gaps in my classical education show through. I'm searching for a philosopher named Kent and the closest I've gotten so far is J. T. Kent, an American physician who was an important figure in homeopathic circles in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries—e.g., Lectures on Materia Medica and Homeopathic Philosophy.

Obviously, I am missing something fairly significant.

I'm obliged, then, to ask your assistance. Which Kent am I looking for?

 

[S.A.M.]

He probably means Kant, which just goes to show how self defeating his own argument is. If he can't even get the name right...?

History of Islam in German Thought

In fact, a rough comparison of Islamic thought and Kantian thought:

Kant: everyone is deluded

link

Islam: all religions share universal values of justice and mercy and have a common origin

... the Quran insisted that its message was simply a "reminder" of truths that everybody knew. This was the primordial faith that had been preached to the whole of humanity by the prophets of the past. God had not left human beings in ignorance about the way they should live: he had sent messengers to every people on the face of the earth. Islamic tradition would later assert that there had been 124,000 such prophets, a symbolic number suggesting infinity. All had brought their people a divinely inspired scripture; they might express the truths of God's religion differently, but essentially the message was always the same. Now at last God had sent the Quraysh a prophet and a scripture. Constantly the Quran points out that Muhammad had not come to cancel the older religions, to contradict their prophets or to start a new faith. His message is the same as that of Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, or Jesus. The Quran mentions only those prophets who were known to the Arabs, but today Muslim scholars argue that had Muhammad known about the Buddhists or Hindus, Australian Aborigines or Native Americans, the Quran would have endorsed their sages too, because all rightly guided religion that submitted wholly to God, refused to worship man-made deities and preached that justice and equality came from the same divine source. Hence Muhammad never asked Jews or Christians to accept Islam, unless they particularly wished to do so, because they had received perfectly valid revelations of their own. The Quran insists strongly that "there shall be no coercion in matters of faith," and commands Muslims to respect the beliefs of Jews and Christians, whom the Quran calls ahl al-kitab, a phrase usually translated "People of the Book" but which is more accurately rendered "people of an earlier revelation" ....

link

I suppose it depends on how nihilistic ones vision of the world is, as a determinant of which point of view is more attractive. Some would prefer to think that they know better than the rest of the world what reality is and how it should be defined for all, while others may choose to think that reality is what people decide it is.

It would be interesting to know how much of Kent [sic] Michael has read, since he recommends him as an example of superior thought processes.

 

[Tiassa]

Immanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable

"The euthanasia of Judaism"?

I mean ... Jesus. I hadn't ever come across that one before.

To the other, if, indeed, it is Kant we are dealing with, I think that phrase—"the euthanasia of Judaism"—pretty much explains the problem with Kant insofar as why he wouldn't find value in the Qur'an. "One shepherd and one flock"?

Thank you, S.A.M. I was putting off the protracted lecture on Christian bigotry in prior centuries until tomorrow. Or, rather, later today. You've saved me at least a couple thousand words with that.

 

[S.A.M.]

As an aside one of the things I deeply miss about living in the US is getting ANY book in three days at the click of a button

I'm looking for a suitable alternative at the moment.

 

[Michael]

my spelling not withstanding the point stands.

Put another way. Suppose a book existed. This book was from God. It was written in ancient Arabic. It described reality down to subatomic particles. You can bet your ass every scientist in the world would know of this book - if not every human. Aspects would be mandatory for all University students. Covered at all levels of education.

Such an importance would be ascribed to such a book.

Now my supposition is that ANY book written by a GOD would be equally as valuable. We are talking GOD here. CREATOR of REALITY itself. And yet, none of Gods works, the Bible, the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon, Xenu Space Opera, Junche, etc... are ascribed such valued. That's a fact of history. A reality. We all agree this is true. God's words aren't even given enough credence to make them a core first year subject. As a matter of fact, a student would have to elect to take a subect about Gods works, right along with finger painting, miming classes and other electives.

The reason being? Because the books are in reality just stories. One could learn the same lessons, and probably even better so, by watching a Disney Classic.



Think of this equation:

E = MC^2

Is there anything of equal importance from God?
Nope.



E = MC^2
Mohammad is the Last Prophet
Kim Jung Il is the Last Prophet
Xenu is the Intergalactic Warlord and Supreme Commander
Joseph Smith Jr is the Last Prophet
John Frum is the Last Prophet
Jim Jones is the Last Prophet

ring ring

 

[S.A.M.]

What is the importance of e=mc^2 to you?

What did you learn from Kant?

 

[GeoffP]

Islam: all religions share universal values of justice and mercy and have a common origin.

That's kind of a crock, given the concept of "Peoples of the Book" as applied in theory and practice.

 

[786]

OK 786,

One thoughtful question. OK.
Does the possibility exist the Qur'an is not Perfect?

Thanks,
Michael

Religiously speaking the Quran IS perfect, but this perfection is in Arabic. There is no perfect translation, or there could be one but we can't know for sure.

Logically speaking you are asking for a possibility. It is quite possible that some words were not properly written in some Quran due to printing mistakes which would make a imperfect Quran but then again this only really shows the imperfection of man.

It is also possible that the accent marks we see today do not 100% represent the actual pronunciation. This argument is based on the fact that early Arabic script lacked accent marks.

Anyways, in content the Quran is Perfect (from a religious perspective). And again this perfection is in Arabic because a language is more than just words if you understand what I am saying. In order for a translation to encompass the depths of a language, you would most certainly need background information about linguistics to understand it. Which would in essence go back to Arabic and the Arab culture and so on..

Peace be unto you

 

[iceaura]

But as tiassa has pointed out, its a virtue of language and translation. You can probably find the same effect listening to a direct translation of a speech from Arabic/

Its how Muslims still talk to each other.

? They talk as if they were Allah's angel?

I more or less don't believe that Muslims throw in extended and ominous threats against unbelievers every third or fourth exchange of their conversations. And I don't believe they spend that much time and ornate language praising Allah and glorifying His presence.

Many critics of Islam tend to have some sort of personal issue with Muhammad, such as (Q)'s suggestion of a cult leader, which would put the entire composition of the Qur'an as some sort of deliberate effort on the part of the Prophet.
”
I notice that such "critics of Islam" are in general clueless about the Qur'an

The Quran reads like a cult indoctrination document, true, but that does not imply deliberate effort on the part of Mohammed - the various hypotheses of mental illness and divine inspiration and so forth account for that even given the unsubstantiated claim that the whole thing came from one man. More than likely many of the very best and most effective cult leaders believe what they are saying, after all.

Religiously speaking the Quran IS perfect, but this perfection is in Arabic.

Such a belief is an idolatry, of course.

Arabic is a human language. "Perfection" is not possible in any human language.

 

[S.A.M.]

? They talk as if they were Allah's angel?

I more or less don't believe that Muslims throw in extended and ominous threats against unbelievers every third or fourth exchange of their conversations. And I don't believe they spend that much time and ornate language praising Allah and glorifying His presence.
The Quran reads like a cult indoctrination document, true, but that does not imply deliberate effort on the part of Mohammed - the various hypotheses of mental illness and divine inspiration and so forth account for that even given the unsubstantiated claim that the whole thing came from one man. More than likely many of the very best and most effective cult leaders believe what they are saying, after all.

All this of course, is based on your excellent knowledge of how it differs from normal Arabic discourse.

 

[iceaura]

All this of course, is based on your excellent knowledge of how it differs from normal Arabic discourse.

Nope.

Enlighten me. Do normal Saudis interrupt their conversations every third exchange to deliver a few sentences of threat and disparagement against those who do not believe in Allah?

 

[S.A.M.]

Nope.

Enlighten me. Do normal Saudis interrupt their conversations every third exchange to deliver a few sentences of threat and disparagement against those who do not believe in Allah?

Sure, in fact, its quite common to tell those not up to the mark that hellfire is waiting on them. As common as scatological references and sexual intercourse with Jesus in English, in fact.

Not only that, but children who disobey are often referred to as "little devil". Its all quite quite terrible.

 

[iceaura]

”
Sure, in fact, its quite common to tell those not up to the mark that hellfire is waiting on them. As common as scatological references and sexual intercourse with Jesus in English, in fact

Not quite the same thing as threatening unbelievers.

Besides: Those are short, interjections - and not that common, actually: certainly not the sexual intercourse with Jesus ones.

The Quran threats are ornate and extended and on every single page.

But the cult picture is filling in, and no mistake.

 

[S.A.M.]

Not quite the same thing as threatening unbelievers.

Besides: Those are short, interjections - and not that common, actually: certainly not the sexual intercourse with Jesus ones.

The Quran threats are ornate and extended and on every single page.

But the cult picture is filling in, and no mistake.

Indeed. No mistake at all. Its quite obvious that Muslims are a cult. They make Special Task Forces to eliminate the infidels at least once a year, if not more.

:shrug:

Anyway, I suggest you get acquainted with the Muslim language, in order to understand their cult better
http://www.altmuslim.com/a/a/a/2349/

 

[(Q)]

Agreed. They are as far from the Qur'an as they can be. It is the age of Jahilliyah in Islam.

And yet, we see the most violence from the fundamentalists, those who are closer to the Quran's principles. Those that aren't, like yourself, wouldn't lift a finger...

 

[S.A.M.]

And yet, we see the most violence from the fundamentalists, those who are closer to the Quran's principles. Those that aren't, like yourself, wouldn't lift a finger...

Actually you see the violence in the uneducated or the occupied. This is par for the course. Its always those with the most limited options who turn to violence.

 

[(Q)]

Actually you see the violence in the uneducated or the occupied. This is par for the course.

That's not what you used to claim. You used to claim that it was the educated middle to upper class people that were behind the violence.

And, if they are uneducated as all they know is the Quran, that speaks volumes for the Islamic cult and how dangerous it is.

 

[(Q)]

Its always those with the most limited options who turn to violence.

Really? Then, why is it that you and other Muslims do nothing to stop the internal strife that your cult is plagued with and instead go off foaming at the mouth at a cartoon?

Plenty of options for you there, Sam.

 

[S.A.M.]

That's not what you used to claim. You used to claim that it was the educated middle to upper class people that were behind the violence.

And, if they are uneducated as all they know is the Quran, that speaks volumes for the Islamic cult and how dangerous it is.

I was referring to general violence. Terrorism is usually the recourse of the guerilla and few guerilla fighters in history are uneducated.

Really? Then, why is it that you and other Muslims do nothing to stop the internal strife that your cult is plagued with and instead go off foaming at the mouth at a cartoon?

Plenty of options for you there, Sam.

Maybe we'll get civilised and westernised and avail ourself of all the options there are to defend ourselves better.

 

[iceaura]

Indeed. No mistake at all. Its quite obvious that Muslims are a cult.

It's quite obvious that the people who regard the Quran as a sacred and perfect revelation of something are not happy about the ways unbelievers describe it after reading the thing.

It reads like a cult document, SAM. The structuring of the thing for hypnotic indoctrination is obvious - this isn't some kind of subtle property, it's striking. I'm sorry if that offends you. I was not expecting that myself, the first time I read it. What that implies for Muslims and Islamic culture is an open question - my own presumptions follow from my rule of thumb that people are basically similar the world over, and I wouldn't expect to be able to predict the behavior of Christians by inferences from cold-reading the Bible.

Anyway, I suggest you get acquainted with the Muslim language, in order to understand their cult better

Not that interested. I suggest you hang out with Americans who don't continually interrupt their conversations with several sentences about sexual intercourse with Jesus, to understand normal Americans a little better.