the Quran On The SCIENCE of the UNIVERSE!!!!

[James R]

Preacher X:

Why take a perfectly good religious text and try to pretend it is a science book? The Quran is no such thing, and that was never the aim behind it.

The Quran Tells Of The Origins Of The Universe​

It is undisputed scientific knowledge that at the time of the big bang everything in the universe was nothing but a cloud of “smoke” (an opaque highly dense and hot gaseous composition).

If you want to call the universe "smoke", then I suppose you'd also say that today's Sun is smoke. Would you?

Allah Says In The QURAN:

Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... (Quran, 21:30)

Your analogy falls down because Earth is not separated from space (or the "heavens". Space is all around it.

It recent discovery, science has found that the universe is steadily expanding (the continuation of the big bang) and as a result will one day collapse in the “big crunch”.

A "big crunch" is currently considered unlikely by scientists.

The Quran Tells Of The SEVEN layers in the Atmosphere In The Earth!!​

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“It is He who created everything one earth for you and then directed his attention, to the heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens, He has knowledge of all things. (Quran, 2:26)

If you're calling space "the heavens", then it is not divided into seven pieces.

Scientist have found that the atmosphere of the earth is comprised of exactly seven layers.

Ah, so you're calling the Earth's atmosphere "the heavens", are you? In that case, it seems your above verse (Quran, 21:30) is wrong, because the atmosphere is still connected to the Earth, despite what Allah said.

Also, you do realise that those names of atmospheric layers are simply convenient, and somewhat overlapping, labels invented by humans, don't you?

These layers have been found very recently and through the help of satellites and very advance scientific equipment.

How recent is "very recently", according to you?

Also Allah says on this topic;

We made the sky a preserved and protected roof, yet the still turn away from our signs. (Quran, 21:32)

The earths atmosphere not only protects us from meteorites and other objects from space hitting us but it also filter out harmful light.

The "sky" is not "preserved" in the way the writer(s) of the Quran supposed. In fact, things change all the time in the sky.

X rays are blocked out by the atmosphere and reach only 90 miles above the earths surface and Ultra violet rays reach 60 miles above the surface.

What causes sunburn?

In the next verse of this Surah:

The Quran On The Orbits Of Planets​

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It is he who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon. They swing along each in an orbit.(Quran, 21:33)

The night and day "swing along" in an orbit? What does that mean? In fact, what does it mean for ANYTHING to "swing along" something else?

And the sun runs to its resting place. That is the decree of the all mighty, the all knowing. (Quran 36:38)

The sun doesn't have a "resting place", and obviously the writer(s) had a geocentric solar system in mind when they wrote this.

By the sky, full of paths and orbits.(Quran 51:7)

Anybody could look up in 500 AD and see the stars and planets. Not very impressive.

All of these scientific revelations revealed in the Quran thousands of years ago and even before the invention of a telescope!!!!

Wow! I am amazed! Praise be to Allah for stating the bleeding obvious.

 

[Preacher_X]

Sorry PX but you cannot claim that this;

“It is He who created everything one earth for you and then directed his attention, to the heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens, He has knowledge of all things. (Quran, 2:26)

Is about the atmosphere because;

(Q. 67: 5)“And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.”

the stars are not in the Troposphere.

You cannot just take the latest scientific ideas and then troll through the Quran for some vague verse which if twisted out of context just might agree with it and then claim the Quran miraculous

the verse i posted is referring to the sky while the verse you posted is to do with the seven layers of the HEAVENS, or the universe in other words.

miracolous in it?

 

[Preacher_X]

Preacher X:
If you want to call the universe "smoke", then I suppose you'd also say that today's Sun is smoke. Would you?

no the sun is not smoke.

the big bang was the "smoke" as it was started off by the hot compressed gas that expanded. the sun and eveything in the universe is not smoke but the atoms are from the original "smoke". in other words the atoms that make up the sun were created in the Big Bang and the sun was created from that smoke (big bang)

 

[Preacher_X]

Preacher X:


Your analogy falls down because Earth is not separated from space (or the "heavens". Space is all around it.

all the matter in the universe was once all located in the big bang and then seperated as the explosion expanded.

all the matter was once connected and then was seperated, the matter then later formed in to starts and things.

so calling it something that was once an entity and then sperated is correct.

 

[Preacher_X]

Preacher X:

If you're calling space "the heavens", then it is not divided into seven pieces.
.

study the ARABIC, the word heavens in this verse means the sky above the earth and NOT the heavens as meaning the universe.

Also, you do realise that those names of atmospheric layers are simply convenient, and somewhat overlapping, labels invented by humans, don't you?

oh God! can you please study that James... the seven layers havent different density's and gaseous structures and filter/reflect different things. so they are ACTUALLY, physically different and not just imaganiry. how do you suppose humans are destorying the Ozone layer, if it is just a man made imagnery thing?

How recent is "very recently", according to you?
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the seven layers are above the clouds so it is impossible to see them. even if you could go above the clouds at the time of the Quran, you still couldn;t see the layers as they are invisible and need to be measured with satelties etc.
these layers were discovered this century (along with the discovery that we are destorying the Ozone layer.

 

[Preacher_X]

Preacher X:
What causes sunburn?

excessive heat from the sun and also harmful rays.

like i said james just study a bit.

are you honestly saying that the layers in the atmosphere such as the ozone layer dont protect us?

if the layers didnt exists at all or got destroyed, we would be TOTALLY fried!!!!

why do you think enviromentalists are bithcing about CFC gases damaging the Ozone layer and increasing skin cancer etc.

the layers filter the very very very big majoriity of harmful rays but some still do get through, the levels that get through are not harmful though and normal sun light is ok. the only problems is if you sun bathe too mucn and also nowadays, CFC is creating a hole in the Ozone and reducing the protective abilities of the layers.

if tyhe ozone layer, got completly destroyed then we would be dead.

 

[Igor Trip]

the verse i posted is referring to the sky while the verse you posted is to do with the seven layers of the HEAVENS, or the universe in other words.

miracolous in it?

PX. You quoted these two verses in you original posting;

“It is He who created everything one earth for you and then directed his attention, to the heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens, He has knowledge of all things. (Quran, 2:26)"

"We made the sky a preserved and protected roof, yet the still turn away from our signs. (Quran, 21:32)"

These quit clearly show that the Sky and the Heavens are not the same! If God meant sky he would have said sky!


"(Q. 67: 5)“And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.”

There are no stars in the troposphere.

 

[invert_nexus]

Why, oh why did this get dredged up again???? Please some mod move this to the appropriate forum, PLEASE!!!

 

[davewhite04]

Preacher X:

Why take a perfectly good religious text and try to pretend it is a science book? The Quran is no such thing, and that was never the aim behind it.

Hiya James,

What was the aim behind it?

Dave

 

[James R]

davewhite04:

It is a book about God and God's will. It is a code of behaviour. It is a religious text.

 

[Preacher_X]

PX. You quoted these two verses in you original posting;

“It is He who created everything one earth for you and then directed his attention, to the heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens, He has knowledge of all things. (Quran, 2:26)"

"We made the sky a preserved and protected roof, yet the still turn away from our signs. (Quran, 21:32)"

These quit clearly show that the Sky and the Heavens are not the same! If God meant sky he would have said sky!

you idiot, you reckon you can speak Arabic all a sudden do you now. the arabic version states a word that means sky but when translated to English it says heavens as it is more appropriate. there are many words in Arabic that just cant be translated and others that are very hard. when translated the structure is often changed.

look dont go on like you some clever clogs who knows arabic, go to anybdy who understaands original Arabic and ask him about the use of the word heavens... and get blanked in you face you jackass.

"(Q. 67: 5)“And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.”

There are no stars in the troposphere.

yet more stupidty on your side, look this is refferring to the creation of the universe and that on the lower section of the universe (which is the section in our part) there are stars.

and the verse that i stated was about the sky above earth that has protective features and not the the universe which has stars.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

you idiot,

blabla

and get blanked in you face you jackass.

blabla

yet more stupidty on your side,

Personal comments used as argument. This is against the rules of sciforum debate.

 

[Igor Trip]

you idiot, you reckon you can speak Arabic all a sudden do you now. the arabic version states a word that means sky but when translated to English it says heavens as it is more appropriate. there are many words in Arabic that just cant be translated and others that are very hard. when translated the structure is often changed.
look dont go on like you some clever clogs who knows arabic, go to anybdy who understaands original Arabic and ask him about the use of the word heavens... and get blanked in you face you jackass.

Here are three more idiots who cannot read Arabic.
002.029
YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.
PICKTHAL: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.
SHAKIR: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.


Do not try to tell me these people could not translate the Quran properly.
These guys new the difference between the sky and the heavens and if the Quran meant sky they would have said sky, and where the Quran meant heaven they would have made sure the distinction was clear.
They would not have used the word Heaven for two different things.

Note; at the time the Quran was written it was believed that the universe was filled with air because the Greeks had stated that the universe abhors a vacuum.

All you and others are trying to do is twist the words of the Quran to agree with the latest known science facts. What Islamic scholars have never done is to state unknown science from the Quran as fact and then have the science proven.

 

[guthrie]

So we have here someone trying to convince us the Quran is telling the truth about science, using quotes in english translated from the Arabic, then when someone disagrees, he claims that they are misunderstanding the Arabic, despite them disagreeing because of the english translations he has used? Can he not just fake up the translations to say what he wants, that would be far faster and save a lot of hassle.

 

[Preacher_X]

So we have here someone trying to convince us the Quran is telling the truth about science, using quotes in english translated from the Arabic, then when someone disagrees, he claims that they are misunderstanding the Arabic, despite them disagreeing because of the english translations he has used? Can he not just fake up the translations to say what he wants, that would be far faster and save a lot of hassle.

God you dont get what im sayin, the meaning does not change but the actual words used are very very different.

what igor was saying is that word used is heavens and not sky i was saying it meant sky, we were not disagreeing and what the sentence was saying but what the word "heaven" meant in this case.

the meaning in all of the passages are the same but translations can be viewed differently. the research was done on the Arabic of course, and NOT the translations as translations can be very different

for example:

"Fa Be Aya Allah he ra'bbi co ma to kaz zee ban"
has ONE meaning in Arabic that is very clear and staright forward but in English it can be translated in many ways:

- Which, then of the benifits of your lord will you twain deny?
- Then which of the favours of Allah will ye both deny?
- then which of the blessings of you lord will you both deny
- then which of the blessing of Allah will you both deny
- which of the favours of Allah will you then both deny
- which of the favours of your lord will you then both deny
- then which of the blessings of Allah will ye both deny

the meaning is the same but the words are very different, but the original Arabic is all the same words and letters as their is only one version.

look at more translations and you will get tens of different ways in which the words are said.

Translation is not the Quran... it is the meaning.

i used the English translation because otherwise you would not get it. the original Arabic is where the science part is concluded from. the original Arabic versions if anything give a better description of science, so if only you guys understood arabic you would get it

 

[Preacher_X]

Here are three more idiots who cannot read Arabic.
002.029
YUSUFALI: It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.
PICKTHAL: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.
SHAKIR: He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

my poor friend, you still dont get it. i said that the word is often (not always) translated to "Heaven" as it is more suitable then saying sky.

the arabic word for heaven has 2 meanings, Sky and Universe and it depends in which way the sentence is said and the surronding text that implies if the word means sky or universe, in this case it means sky and not heaven but saying heaven is more suitable then saying sky becasue of the arabic word chosen. becasue just as Jihad has 2 meanings and hijab has 2 when you translate them you use their universal term ("hijab" and "jihad") instead of the actual meaning for the word (that it is meant to mean in the situation). this is what has been done.#

now ask the same people, who you quoted from, is this verse refferring to the universe or the sky and once like i said before, get blanked in you face.

it is obvious it is referring to the sky because of the sentenmce structure and surronding words, which are which have words that last for longer (as indicated by the symbols above the letters of the word and surronding word), if it meant universe, the arabice would not be made longer.

it is simple Arabic that the word means sky. sorry igor boy, thats just the way it is.

want anymore lessons in Arabic?

 

[Preacher_X]

move this to the appropriate forum, PLEASE!!!

it is the approiate forum SCIENCE. it is talking about statments relating to science and not religion (but are from a religous book). it is no diffent from the me making a thread about how past generations such as the romans knew alot about science and this is what they said... blah blah blah. or this is what people said 1400 years ago about science... blah blah blah

move it to the religion forum then people will not understand science. the people will not be able to discuss if they do not understand science. anyway, its to your benifit, becasue you think the statments are wrong and i think they are right. you can argue cos you know about science. if i posted this in the religous forum people will not understand science and belive all that i have said and not argue with me.

 

[Igor Trip]

my poor friend, you still dont get it. i said that the word is often (not always) translated to "Heaven" as it is more suitable then saying sky.

the arabic word for heaven has 2 meanings, Sky and Universe and it depends in which way the sentence is said and the surronding text that implies if the word means sky or universe, in this case it means sky and not heaven but saying heaven is more suitable then saying sky becasue of the arabic word chosen. becasue just as Jihad has 2 meanings and hijab has 2 when you translate them you use their universal term ("hijab" and "jihad") instead of the actual meaning for the word (that it is meant to mean in the situation). this is what has been done.#

now ask the same people, who you quoted from, is this verse refferring to the universe or the sky and once like i said before, get blanked in you face.

it is obvious it is referring to the sky because of the sentenmce structure and surronding words, which are which have words that last for longer (as indicated by the symbols above the letters of the word and surronding word), if it meant universe, the arabice would not be made longer.

it is simple Arabic that the word means sky. sorry igor boy, thats just the way it is.

want anymore lessons in Arabic?

If the word can mean Sky or Universe then the question is why is it translated as Heaven? This has a very specific meaning in English. It means where God and the angels live (It’s simple English).

It was only used for the Universe when people thought the stars where just a few miles above our heads and that God lived amongst them (which is what the Arabs believed)

As it is apparently always translated as Heaven, those translators must have presumed this meaning to be correct.

You say it always depends on context.

“It is He who created everything one earth for you and then directed his attention, to the heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens, He has knowledge of all things. (Quran, 2:26)"

This says everything on earth was created first. This must include all life or the word “everything” makes no sense, and for there to be life there must be air to breath. So if the Heavens where created afterwards they cannot be the atmosphere.

Also an awful lot of those symbols above the letters of the word and surrounding words where added later.

http://answering-islam.org/BehindVeil/btv8.html
1) In his famous book, "The History of Islamic Law" (p.43), Dr. Ahmad Shalabi, professor of Islamic history and civilization remarks,
"The Qur’an was written in the Kufi script without diacritical points, vocalization or literary productions. No distinction was made between such words as ‘slaves’, ‘a slave’, and ‘at’ or ‘to have’, or between ‘to trick’ and ‘to deceive each other’, or between ‘to investigate’ or ‘to make sure’. Because of the Arab skill in Arabic language their reading was precise. Later when non-Arabs embraced Islam, errors began to appear in the reading of the Qur’an when those non-Arabs and other Arabs whose language was corrupted, read it. The incorrect reading changed the meaning sometimes."

So when the diacritical points where added later, the meaning might have been slightly altered.

 

[ScrollMaker]

There are so many things wrong with what you posted PX. You also forgot to mention the part where the Qu'ran says that the original humans were giants.

 

[crazy151drinker]

Mr. X,

You do realize that the Old Testament stories were written a couple thousand years BEFORE the Quaran.

And im sure you realize that the greeks and romans figured out everything you stated WAY before it was written in the Quaran (funny how the Planets have Roman names.....)