The Quran on Seas and Rivers:

[Sock puppet path]

Firstly, you should have quoted only two of these verses to illustrate your scheme second thanks for also being wrong and proving me right. It's QUITE a stretch to assume these verses are implying the earth is flat. People like you make a mockery of the Quran and themselves by taking all of it's verses literally.

Regarding your audacity and arrogance toward God no matter how desperate one gets the truth doesn't change.

LOL I love it when the apologists scramble. A stretch? You don't spread out a sphere, raise the heavens from what exactly? They claim to have found the "rising place" and "setting place" of the sun. THE rising and setting places

The quran makes a mockery of itself without my help. :shrug:

As for taking verses literally the quran claims it is an easy to understand guide for mankind (you are aware of that right) Nowhere does it claim to be cryptic, that is a modern innovation.

The truth often seems audacious to the ignorant.

Here is something funny for you, nothing definitve of course but amusing none the less.

 

[IamJoseph]

The Holy Quran mentioned that there is a barrier between two seas that meet and that they do not transgress.

All nations have knowledge unique to them. But this is too vague and open to manipulative meanings to be acceptable as credible revelation.

More impressive is the naming of two rivers in their exact location seen in Genesis. This is not vague or open to manipulation - its the world's first aerial view world map vista 1000's of years before Googleworld search engne. If a writing were to decide which nation is older in the middle-east, it certainly would not be Islam or the Arabs. This is not an opinion but a factual pointer.

 

[IamJoseph]

I don't see "flat earth", but I do see the sun as being in orbit about the earth, which is donkey poo.

The only scripture which does not say the earth is flat is the Hebrew bible - despite it emerged 2000 years before the NT. When one examins the Hebrew calender, the oldest and most accurate one of all, and which uses the solar, lunar and earth movements in depicting time and seasons - there is no alternative to concluding it has factored in a moving sphear's constancy around other moving sphears. The day and week was also introduced in the Hebrew bible.


Old Gregory got it wrong - and was happy about it: 'BETTER TO BE WRONG BY THE MOON THAN BE RIGHT WITH THE JEWS'. :shrug:

 

[GeoffP]

Here is another translation

21:33 It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.

Besides the verse doesn't say anyhting about the sun orbiting the earth.

It also doesn't say "(the celestial bodies)". And it was meant to describe some rounded course around the centre of the galaxy, then it takes an evasive path in doing so.

The only scripture which does not say the earth is flat is the Hebrew bible - despite it emerged 2000 years before the NT. When one examins the Hebrew calender, the oldest and most accurate one of all, and which uses the solar, lunar and earth movements in depicting time and seasons - there is no alternative to concluding it has factored in a moving sphear's constancy around other moving sphears. The day and week was also introduced in the Hebrew bible.


Old Gregory got it wrong - and was happy about it: 'BETTER TO BE WRONG BY THE MOON THAN BE RIGHT WITH THE JEWS'. :shrug:

:bugeye: Link?

 

[Big Chiller]

LOL I love it when the apologists scramble. A stretch? You don't spread out a sphere, raise the heavens from what exactly? They claim to have found the "rising place" and "setting place" of the sun. THE rising and setting places

The quran makes a mockery of itself without my help. :shrug:

As for taking verses literally the quran claims it is an easy to understand guide for mankind (you are aware of that right) Nowhere does it claim to be cryptic, that is a modern innovation.

The truth often seems audacious to the ignorant.

This looks like incoherent nonsense to me. Why would a scripture have to be cryptic to not be an easy guide for mankind sure it has guidance in it but it also has some allegorical verses simply because God wants to put it in there He does whatever He wants to.

And when I mentioned your audacity I was referring to:

Etc. etc if god is the author of the quran then he is an uneducated idiot.

Here is something funny for you, nothing definitve of course but amusing none the less.

You shouldn't let yourself be diverted away from knowledge because of people who lack any decent knowledge.

 

[S.A.M.]

Big Chiller:

When you find Geoff, SPP and IamJoseph together in a thread, know that there is no one home to reason with when it comes to Islam. Better save your breath.

 

[Big Chiller]

Ramadan Mubarak to you and readers.

How about shushing them up?

 

[S.A.M.]

Ramadan Mubarak to you and readers.

How about shushing them up?

Sure, its called the Ignore button.

 

[Big Chiller]

I mean shush them into a corner as a result of intellectual battle in this discussion.

 

[S.A.M.]

I mean shush them into a corner as a result of intellectual battle in this discussion.

Indulging Islamophobes is not an "intellectual battle"; at best, it is zannah or self indulgent whimsy in meaningless theological speculations [the Quran takes a dim view of that] and at worst, a waste of time and energy.

 

[Big Chiller]

Engaging?

They did challenge the verse of the Quran which is the topic of the discussion though they are Islamophobes.

 

[S.A.M.]

Engaging?

They did challenge the verse of the Quran which is the topic of the discussion though they are Islamophobes.

And?

"[22:46] Did they not roam the earth, then use their minds to understand, and use their ears to hear? Indeed, the real blindness is not the blindness of the eyes, but the blindness of the hearts inside the chests."

When there is a blindness of the heart accompanied by a dimness of the brain, what does their "challenge" matter?

I mean you can go ahead and indulge yourself, but it will be pointless.

 

[GeoffP]

Big Chiller:

When you find Geoff, SPP and IamJoseph together in a thread, know that there is no one home to reason with when it comes to Islam. Better save your breath.

Agreed - he'll need as much of his breath as he can get. But never you mind, Sam, the eccentric proposition and the ridiculous way in which it's being argued.

Ramadan Mubarak to you and readers.

How about shushing them up?

:bugeye: How interesting. One makes an unsupported assertion of special religious scientific proof, then poses an interest in silencing opposition.

I'm sure those things are completely incident here.

 

[Sock puppet path]

Big Chiller:

When you find Geoff, SPP and IamJoseph together in a thread, know that there is no one home to reason with when it comes to Islam. Better save your breath.

I would need to abandon reason to believe that "he found it (the sun) setting in a muddy spring" or because the quran commands all of it's followers to give 20% of war booty to muhammed and pledge allegiance to him by name and coincidentally he is the only muslim allowed to marry 19 women etc etc. Sorry I find it laughable so ignore away.

 

[Sock puppet path]

This looks like incoherent nonsense to me. Why would a scripture have to be cryptic to not be an easy guide for mankind sure it has guidance in it but it also has some allegorical verses simply because God wants to put it in there He does whatever He wants to.

And when I mentioned your audacity I was referring to:

A simple guide is not something that has to be decrypted.
It is the same audacity you show for Krisna, Zeus, Odin, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny" etc. Get it?

You shouldn't let yourself be diverted away from knowledge because of people who lack any decent knowledge.

When I need knowledge on how to worship a fictional 7th century arab desert deity and the guy who wrote the guidebook I'll let you know.

 

[Big Chiller]

A simple guide is not something that has to be decrypted.
It is the same audacity you show for Krisna, Zeus, Odin, Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny" etc. Get it?

The allegorical verses are not meant to be decrypted. In modern times some of the verses seem to match recent scientific findings and that's what's been brought to attention.


You display your arrogance toward God to me after knowing that I'm a believer that's what I'm referring to. How do you know I display any arrogance to a believer of Krishna for example? Arrogance is very disliked in my religion.

When I need knowledge on how to worship a fictional 7th century arab desert deity and the guy who wrote the guidebook I'll let you know.

Ah and now I know that you yourself lack any decent knowledge.

 

[Big Chiller]

Here is another translation

21:33 It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.

Besides the verse doesn't say anything about the sun orbiting the earth.

It also doesn't say "(the celestial bodies)". And it was meant to describe some rounded course around the centre of the galaxy, then it takes an evasive path in doing so.

I'm well aware of that that's why that part has been put in parentheses. "(the celestial bodies)" have been inserted because that seems to be a plausible reference point for "all". Regarding taking of evasive path whatever the verse means (we never know for sure) God isn't obliged to explain it. We are the ones with the obligations. Perhaps a better interpretaion for the verse is all that exists are running their course in time.

 

[iceaura]

Regarding taking of evasive path whatever the verse means (we never know for sure) God isn't obliged to explain it, please. We are the ones with the obligations.

I have no obligation to explain the Quran, and I doubt anyone else living does either - the people who claim to find revelations of scientific fact in it (always in hindsight) would be the ones who need to be able to explain things, starting with themselves.

Arrogance is very disliked in my religion.

If that dislike extended to a reduction of its prevalence, it would be appreciated by the rest of us. But claims of, for example, being privy to the one infallible and unchanging book written by God, seem difficult to root out from the basic approach.

 

[Big Chiller]

I have no obligation to explain the Quran, and I doubt anyone else living does either - the people who claim to find revelations of scientific fact in it (always in hindsight) would be the ones who need to be able to explain things, starting with themselves.

I mean God isn't obliged to do anything. And the rest is merely your own delusions.

If that dislike extended to a reduction of its prevalence, it would be appreciated by the rest of us. But claims of, for example, being privy to the one infallible and unchanging book written by God, seem difficult to root out from the basic approach.

I'm glad I don't understand this, probably non-sequitur bullshit anyway. :blbl:

 

[Sock puppet path]

The allegorical verses are not meant to be decrypted. In modern times some of the verses seem to match recent scientific findings and that's what's been brought to attention.


You display your arrogance toward God to me after knowing that I'm a believer that's what I'm referring to. How do you know I display any arrogance to a believer of Krishna for example? Arrogance is very disliked in my religion.

The arrogance of your religion which claims disbelievers are cursed and doomed to eternal fire is apparent. This in effect reduces them to subhuman status and allows the faithful who take the verses literally to murder them without compunction, something we see often. Why should I respect an intolerant belief system when it shows none for non-believers?

Ah and now I know that you yourself lack any decent knowledge.

Keep telling yourself that.