The Post Whatever Thread

[Write4U]

Gotcha.

I'm not sure I think of ''best guesses'' as ''hallucinations,'' though. I think if we insist on the hallucination being real (to us, in the moment), despite evidence to the contrary...then, that would be a delusion. Hmm.

Anil Seth makes a distinction between "controlled hallucinations" (best guesses) as opposed to "uncontrolled hallucinations" which are random delusions produced by a overstimulation of sensory experiences.

He explains that controlled hallucinations are produced by a simple feed back system whereby the brain reaffirms its "best guess" by confirmation with the exterior input. A kind of double check but this time it is comparing the internal hologram with the exterior object, rather than the other way around.

The input from exterior is processed by the "afferent" neuron system, the confirmation to the exterior and internal motor responses are produced by the "efferent" neural system.

Afferent neurons are also known as sensory neurons, and efferent neurons are also known as motor neurons.

However, the effect (stimuli and the responses) of sensory and motor neurons are slightly different from that of afferent and efferent neurons. Sensual perceptions of the body are eye, nose, ear, tongue, and skin. The information gathered from these sensory perceptions are respectively light, smell, noise, taste, and touch. The effector organs can be various groups of muscles and fibers, glands, and organs.

The main difference between afferent and efferent is that afferent refers to the neurons carrying signals from sensory perceptions towards the CNS while efferent refers to the neurons carrying signals from the CNS to the effector organs.

(CNS=Central Nervous System)
https://pediaa.com/difference-between-afferent-and-efferent/

Thus controlled "seeing" comes from the inside out as much as from the outside in. If the internal hologram presents a distorted picture then we enter a delusional state. Anil Seth observes that this is actually a very fragile balance, which can go wrong from a host of interferences.

And again, even as we know that optical illusions present a false representation of reality, the brain still tells us what it's best guess is even as we know it is wrong......very disturbing in a way......

But with an optical illusion we know its an illusion, so we need only admit to ourselves it is an illusion, to keep our mind from going ..poof!................ .......

 

[Write4U]

Then, there are illusions, which distort our perception of reality. I guess this is why magicians are still a thing.

Exactly.
But in view of the brain's ability to only guess at what our senses tell us, it is always hallucinating some impression.

But that's where Seth makes a distincton between "controlled (confirmed) hallucination" and "uncontrolled (unconfirmed) hallucinations.

I also struggled with the concept of a hallucinating brain, but "the brain in a vat" does confirm the illusionary (best guess) property of what the brain needs to process all the time.

 

[wegs]

This discussion reminds me of this:

 

[Write4U]

I still think this is one of the most incredible optical illusions which completely stumps the brain from coming to the correct "best guess".

Not only does the illusion produce a non-existent green dot, it also makes all the purple dots disappear completely and eventually you may perceive all the pink dots side by side to green dots. Its an incredible puzzle the brain is unable to solve unless you readjust your eyes every few seconds.

 

[DaveC426913]

But where do we draw that line? Idk.

With independently corroborating information.
Like a trail through the woods, footprints, spoor, tufts of hair, etc.

The answer isn't yes or no (at least until we actually find a Bigfoot) - the answer is: is there enough convincing evidence to warrant further research?

 

[iceaura]

The makers of Jurassic Park spent millions on special effects, and all they had to do was run video of coatimundis in reverse: https://twitter.com/jmellera/status/1126147579232817152?s=21

 

[DaveC426913]

The makers of Jurassic Park spent millions on special effects, and all they had to do was run video of coatimundis in reverse: https://twitter.com/jmellera/status/1126147579232817152?s=21

You got me!!
I actually thought I those were little diplodoci!

The sillouette and the gait are so convincing - the only thing that clued me in was that their feet seemed to be on backwards.

 

[wegs]

Lol!

 

[wegs]

I still think this is one of the most incredible optical illusions which completely stumps the brain from coming to the correct "best guess".

Not only does the illusion produce a non-existent green dot, it also makes all the purple dots disappear completely and eventually you may perceive all the pink dots side by side to green dots. Its an incredible puzzle the brain is unable to solve unless you readjust your eyes every few seconds.

What? The green dot I see is just an illusion?

That’s pretty cool.

Optical illusions are fun.

 

[DaveC426913]

[DUPE]

 

[wegs]

With independently corroborating information.
Like a trail through the woods, footprints, spoor, tufts of hair, etc.

The answer isn't yes or no (at least until we actually find a Bigfoot) - the answer is: is there enough convincing evidence to warrant further research?

And yet, there will still be BF enthusiasts who insist that all that evidence doesn’t matter. It couldn’t be a bear’s footprint!!

 

[DaveC426913]

And yet, there will still be BF enthusiasts who insist that all that evidence doesn’t matter. It couldn’t be a bear’s footprint!!

Well, it comes down to the quality of the evidence.
If the evidence is extant (i.e. still available to be studied) that goes a much longer way than eyewitnesses.

 

[DaveC426913]

Its an incredible puzzle the brain is unable to solve

Not so much a puzzle as a sneak peek into the fuzzy edges of our physiology.
The cones in your retina, once stimulated, get fatigued. It takes a non-zero length of time for the light-sensitive molecules to reset themselves.
So the magenta is stimulating the red and blue cones briefly, then a white background is substituted. The green cones, not being fatigued, fire at full strength, while the red and blue fire at sub-optimal strength.

Your brain really is getting a "green" signal. It's your eyes that are not up to the task of reporting accurately.


It's effectively the same thing as this one.
Stare at the dot in this pic for 20 seconds and then look at a white screen.

 

[DaveC426913]

And yet, there will still be BF enthusiasts who insist that all that evidence doesn’t matter. It couldn’t be a bear’s footprint!!

Oh. I misread that. Heh.
I thought you were saying they were skeptical. You were saying they're fervent believers, despite evidence to the contrary.
My bad.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Well, if five people have claimed to see Big Foot last night in the town they all live in, separately/together (that part doesn't matter) - I'd consider that a hallucination, or just a mistake in identifying something else as Big Foot. Now if they insist on holding their claims to be true, and we know there's no evidence to support the existence of Big Foot, they'd be delusional.

But where do we draw that line? Idk.

(just musing here...)
if the assessment is lacking proof but the event is real.
then it does not by default make the assessment a delusion by the continued people/party/person holding of that opinion ?(conspiracies, propaganda, brain washing, manipulation, false facts, un proven factual ideas etc)
the interpretation of the perception being unfounded by physical reality...
it is a thought process assessing a thought process of a perceptio0n.
mostly, facts tend to be somewhat circumstantial.
only by collective agreement(hallucination?) does the assignment of the term "fact" become assigned to something that is on the most part, just a perception.

the state of the mind in its ability to identify reality is a subjective metaphor of the perceptions self definition(?)[philosophy discussion]

my point of reference is a often controversial[however, contains the majority of root causes for division of collective agreement and driving force behind proclamations of fact, fiction, delusion & hallucination and has vast amounts of documentation... historic cultural archeological belief systems and practices etc]
concepts of religion driving law ... the inquisition, death penalty's etc etc....(non specific, the point of belief collectively held and being something that has differing beliefs of it and to it)
the collective hallucination of the perceptions being held on to as a delusion, driving an over arching hallucination of what could be the delusion ?

e.g sometimes[many times] i have questioned my own perception thinking this must be a hallucination based on a theory of delusion, only to find it to be apparent fact]
equally, many times more i have tested such perception to find it to be one or both delusional thought process with or without hallucination.
[i think i am done editing for clarification]

 

[wegs]

(just musing here...)
if the assessment is lacking proof but the event is real.
then it does not by default make the assessment a delusion by the continued people/party/person holding of that opinion ?(conspiracies, propaganda, brain washing, manipulation, false facts, un proven factual ideas etc)
the interpretation of the perception being unfounded by physical reality...
it is a thought process assessing a thought process of a perceptio0n.
mostly, facts tend to be somewhat circumstantial.
only by collective agreement(hallucination?) does the assignment of the term "fact" become assigned to something that is on the most part, just a perception.

the state of the mind in its ability to identify reality is a subjective metaphor of the perceptions self definition(?)[philosophy discussion]

my point of reference is a often controversial[however, contains the majority of root causes for division of collective agreement and driving force behind proclamations of fact, fiction, delusion & hallucination and has vast amounts of documentation... historic cultural archeological belief systems and practices etc]
concepts of religion driving law ... the inquisition, death penalty's etc etc....(non specific, the point of belief collectively held and being something that has differing beliefs of it and to it)
the collective hallucination of the perceptions being held on to as a delusion, driving an over arching hallucination of what could be the delusion ?

e.g sometimes[many times] i have questioned my own perception thinking this must be a hallucination based on a theory of delusion, only to find it to be apparent fact]
equally, many times more i have tested such perception to find it to be one or both delusional thought process with or without hallucination.
[i think i am done editing for clarification]

Yea, I see what you’re saying. I’ve sometimes had to step back from my own perceptions to rethink things.

I’m not sure I’ve ever had a literal hallucination, though. Hmm.

Although, I do believe in the possibility of ghosts. Don’t tell anyone. :-}

 

[RainbowSingularity]

I do believe in the possibility of ghosts.

there are many concepts of science around energy types that we do not understand.
ghosts could easily fall inside one of those aspects of unknown science.
all be those not as intelligent life forms with dynamic thought, as some might wish to define them.

I’m not sure I’ve ever had a literal hallucination,

this surprises me

(going down the rabbit hole a little)
is not life a hallucination to the fluid creative mind ?(philosophical spiritualism)
i have had visual, audio, sensory, time, spacial hallucinations.

metaphysical examples to use for reference ...
having a sudden urge to eat something ... all to most pregnant women claim to have these.
are they hallucinations ?
you need to eat to live
but you choose to live
you also choose to eat
you do not "need" to eat that which the craving is for to live = ? delusion or hallucination ?

 

[wegs]

there are many concepts of science around energy types that we do not understand.
ghosts could easily fall inside one of those aspects of unknown science.
all be those not as intelligent life forms with dynamic thought, as some might wish to define them.



this surprises me

(going down the rabbit hole a little)
is not life a hallucination to the fluid creative mind ?
i have had visual, audio, sensory, time, spacial hallucinations.
having a sudden urge to eat something ... all to most pregnant women claim to have these.
are they hallucinations ?

Yea, you could be right. I’ll have to think about it. The definition of hallucination is to perceive something as though it were real in the absence of external stimuli. That’s a pretty wide net that could potentially catch a lot of possibilities!

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Yea, you could be right. I’ll have to think about it. The definition of hallucination is to perceive something as though it were real in the absence of external stimuli. That’s a pretty wide net that could potentially catch a lot of possibilities!

(rabbit hole seat-belt advisory)
i have had drug induced hallucinations before
also hallucinations from sleep deprivation
also hallucinations from sleep disturbance
the mind seeks to actuate a sense of stimulation as a process of action to normalize its functional process of existence...


the only way i know they were hallucinations is because i could discover they were not real.
if they never became hallucinations, they would be real because of my inability to define what is real and what is not.
if you have never knowingly had a hallucination, how do you know that anything is in fact NOT a hallucination ?

 

[wegs]

(rabbit hole seat-belt advisory)
i have had drug induced hallucinations before
also hallucinations from sleep deprivation
also hallucinations from sleep disturbance
the mind seeks to actuate a sense of stimulation as a process of action to normalize its functional process of existence...


the only way i know they were hallucinations is because i could discover they were not real.
if they never became hallucinations, they would be real because of my inability to define what is real and what is not.
if you have never knowingly had a hallucination, how do you know that anything is in fact NOT a hallucination ?

Ooookay, yea. Sleep deprivation can play tricks on the mind. Like I’ve awakened from dreams, awake for say 30 minutes, feeling that the dream was a reality until enough time passed and I was like woah, that was just a dream.