Yes, that's what you seem to be doing.
The "homophobic" lie
- Thread starter Tiassa
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Yes, that's what you seem to be doing.
So what are you arguing/posting about????????? That all people who don't like gays are fearful of gays??? Or are you just arguing about the definition of words?
Baron Max
I'm just trying to clear up the definition of homophobia. Hatred, fear, dislike, etc, it all falls under homophobia.
You might dislike gay people or gay acts, and by definition that makes you a homophobe (like it or not). Whether your dislike is due to fear, ignorance, disgust, etc, is your own problem.
No. But then I don't feel the need to haul them out back and beat the shit out of them eitherbaron said:
or get together with my buddies and make a big deal out of finding, ambushing, and humiliating them
or go around loudly proclaiming how evil they are, and how disgusted I am, and what punishments they deserve, to anyone who will listen
and I think someone who did those things would be exhibiting symptoms. I would assume that person was personally threatened by those people - or why the fuss?
Disgust would not explain that behavior.
I've never even heard of any. They are certainly very rare. And, one would assume, mentally ill.baron said:
I have never witnessed this, except on TV.
Well there are non gay people who get the shit kicked out of them, are humiliated and bullied just the same.
Some are maybe fat, ugly, poor, nerdy.....etc but not even GAY!
So you don't bother reading my posts either. OK.
True. It's a theory. If you cared to read the article and sugget another theory to explain the findings we could have what is called a discussion or debate. You don't so I won't bother trying.
Norsefire's homoerotic fantasy
So a friend of mine who was raped by her Christian father: should she go out of her way to seek laws oppressing Christians, men, or fathers? How about heterosexuals?
Why do you always "LOL" at yourself like that? It doesn't do much for your argument.
I mean, seriously, Max ... with an outlook like that, I don't think Norsefire should worry about gay men being attracted to him. To reiterate part of Mr. Steel's point:
Norsefire's complaint sounds like one of those fake letters to Dan Savage.
Let's consider Norsefire's great fear: "I don't want to be asleep in my barracks, and getting violated by some homo at the same time. No thanks."
Okay, the number of presuppositions required to make this happen is beyond silly:
Five things wrong with a single sentence offered to justify discrimination against an entire class of people.
Now, let's think about this. The "f@ck everything gay man" is a common myth among the ignorant and frightened, and is one of the standards dragged out for political action against homosexuals. We must presume that Norsefire's fantasy gay is so depraved, so nymphomaniac, that he cannot prevent himself from seeking sexual relief in his fellows, and cannot prevent himself from raping them as they sleep. (Perhaps there is an element of transference in this, given some of the military sex scandals about heterosexuals in recent years.)
Secondly, Norsefire chooses himself, as the gay soldier must. There is a relevant concern for the self, I suppose, since such homophobes consider other men's rapes alongside women's rapes, nothing to worry about. But still, it's just hilarious to watch people presume that they are so attractive to others of their sex that the gay people they know nothing about and are afraid of should want them.
Additionally, it's funny that Norsefire wouldn't notice that he's being "violated".
Beyond that, what are his fellow soldiers doing? Oh, right. Norsefire hasn't "noticed", and thus hasn't "objected", and thus is surprisingly accommodating. Or is he too frightened to object? (This could make some sense, except that he is, in this sexual fantasy, a soldier.)
The fantasy suggests two things: First, that Norsefire's homophobia is an aspect of his own self-loathing, and secondly that he doesn't really have to worry, because the vibe he puts off is a chilling one. Trust me, tangling with that kind of obvious psychological disarray in exchange for an orgasm is what het guys refer to as having a partner that comes with baggage.
And this sort of thing is what makes the closet more dangerous: Norsefire is more likely to validate his fears by engaging in risky behavior than he is to address the sexual craving responsibly. But since, at this point, he doesn't actually have to be gay to have such fantasies or even enjoy a good shagging from a bloke, his own homophobia is the strongest force pushing him into the closet.
Even if the ignorance he fears is about himself, it's ignorance and fear at the root of his hateful outlook.
Baron Max said:
So a friend of mine who was raped by her Christian father: should she go out of her way to seek laws oppressing Christians, men, or fathers? How about heterosexuals?
Why do you always "LOL" at yourself like that? It doesn't do much for your argument.
I mean, seriously, Max ... with an outlook like that, I don't think Norsefire should worry about gay men being attracted to him. To reiterate part of Mr. Steel's point:
Norsefire's complaint sounds like one of those fake letters to Dan Savage.
Let's consider Norsefire's great fear: "I don't want to be asleep in my barracks, and getting violated by some homo at the same time. No thanks."
Okay, the number of presuppositions required to make this happen is beyond silly:
• "sexual version of the Terminator" - standard prerequisite to homophobic sexual fantasy.
• "you're a slob!" - I can't speak for Norsefire specifically, but this is the arrogance of the above prerequisite; apparently Norsefire knows he's rape-bait--he's just that hot.
• We'd think you'd notice - so ... he's asleep in the barracks and getting violated "at the same time"? (We are officially getting silly.)
• Indifference? - what are his fellow soldiers doing? Watching? (Silly.)
• Closet desire? - Oh ... that's right, he's conveniently asleep and thus unable to protest. (Beyond silly.)
• "you're a slob!" - I can't speak for Norsefire specifically, but this is the arrogance of the above prerequisite; apparently Norsefire knows he's rape-bait--he's just that hot.
• We'd think you'd notice - so ... he's asleep in the barracks and getting violated "at the same time"? (We are officially getting silly.)
• Indifference? - what are his fellow soldiers doing? Watching? (Silly.)
• Closet desire? - Oh ... that's right, he's conveniently asleep and thus unable to protest. (Beyond silly.)
Five things wrong with a single sentence offered to justify discrimination against an entire class of people.
Now, let's think about this. The "f@ck everything gay man" is a common myth among the ignorant and frightened, and is one of the standards dragged out for political action against homosexuals. We must presume that Norsefire's fantasy gay is so depraved, so nymphomaniac, that he cannot prevent himself from seeking sexual relief in his fellows, and cannot prevent himself from raping them as they sleep. (Perhaps there is an element of transference in this, given some of the military sex scandals about heterosexuals in recent years.)
Secondly, Norsefire chooses himself, as the gay soldier must. There is a relevant concern for the self, I suppose, since such homophobes consider other men's rapes alongside women's rapes, nothing to worry about. But still, it's just hilarious to watch people presume that they are so attractive to others of their sex that the gay people they know nothing about and are afraid of should want them.
Additionally, it's funny that Norsefire wouldn't notice that he's being "violated".
Beyond that, what are his fellow soldiers doing? Oh, right. Norsefire hasn't "noticed", and thus hasn't "objected", and thus is surprisingly accommodating. Or is he too frightened to object? (This could make some sense, except that he is, in this sexual fantasy, a soldier.)
The fantasy suggests two things: First, that Norsefire's homophobia is an aspect of his own self-loathing, and secondly that he doesn't really have to worry, because the vibe he puts off is a chilling one. Trust me, tangling with that kind of obvious psychological disarray in exchange for an orgasm is what het guys refer to as having a partner that comes with baggage.
And this sort of thing is what makes the closet more dangerous: Norsefire is more likely to validate his fears by engaging in risky behavior than he is to address the sexual craving responsibly. But since, at this point, he doesn't actually have to be gay to have such fantasies or even enjoy a good shagging from a bloke, his own homophobia is the strongest force pushing him into the closet.
Even if the ignorance he fears is about himself, it's ignorance and fear at the root of his hateful outlook.
Baron has.shorty said:
But nevertheless often called gay, no? By a bully who seems to have a kind of odd obsession?shorty said:
We are not accounting for all bullying, here. We are describing a particular kind of violent reaction to the mere existence of a circumstance that most men are completely indifferent toward.
Very, very, very few people do that, and you know it. So why raise such a thing in a "normal" conversation?
Everyone that I know is disgusted by people who stink, yet none of them are afraid of the stinky ones.
Baron Max
but that is not born out of ignorance
So you're just going to keep saying it and saying it and saying it and .....until people finally begin to believe it, is that it, Tiassa? Like Hitler did during the 30s? Say it long enough and loud enough and people will believe it, huh?
I think, Tiassa, with that last post of yours, you've surpassed Fraggle in typing the most words to say the least ...and in your case, to say the same idiotic things over and over. At least Fraggle doesn't do that!!
Baron Max
What a tragic world we live in... where pregnancies are terminated on a whim, abortion clinics are ten a penny and those who cannot create life parade themselves like heroes.
Well, hang around a little longer ....it's only gonna' get worse!
What do you think is going to happen when the oil runs out or is so costly as to be guarded by armed guards with ammo and orders to shoot to kill? Just how nice do you think humans are going to be then?
Baron Max
Baron Max:
It's not so much fearing gay people. It's a fear of what the existence of homosexuality represents for one's own sexuality.
Invariably, the worst homophobes are those who have doubts about their own sexual orientation. They feel angry and under pressure not to admit to their own inclinations, and so, lacking the ability to lash out at the society whose values constrain them, they instead lash out at what they perceive is the source of their personal conflict. They think (incorrectly) that if the gay people would just go away, they would not have issues with their own sexuality any more.
Homophobes often rationalise their fear as simple hatred of the other. But it is fear none the less.
Similar arguments apply to most forms of bigotry, in fact.
mountainhare:
You're not looking deeply enough. Why should a person feel disgusted about something that is not done in his presence, and causes no harm to him or to society in general? That kind of disgust is indeed irrational, and it springs from fear. In this case, it is not just fear of the other, although that probably plays a part for many homophobes (who tend more often than not to be bigotted in other ways as well). It is fear for oneself; the fear that one may not be abel to control one's own sexual desires and orientation in what one considers to be the socially acceptable manner.
draqon:
Nowhere near as much as heterosexual people...
Gay people add colour to a multicultural society.
[quote...they also limit people in their choices (many people feel oppressed by that which has become gay...[/quote]
Nobody is forcing you to be gay.
1. They aren't.
2. It wouldn't be a bad thing if they were.
Some do.
It's not so much fearing gay people. It's a fear of what the existence of homosexuality represents for one's own sexuality.
Invariably, the worst homophobes are those who have doubts about their own sexual orientation. They feel angry and under pressure not to admit to their own inclinations, and so, lacking the ability to lash out at the society whose values constrain them, they instead lash out at what they perceive is the source of their personal conflict. They think (incorrectly) that if the gay people would just go away, they would not have issues with their own sexuality any more.
Homophobes often rationalise their fear as simple hatred of the other. But it is fear none the less.
Similar arguments apply to most forms of bigotry, in fact.
mountainhare:
You're not looking deeply enough. Why should a person feel disgusted about something that is not done in his presence, and causes no harm to him or to society in general? That kind of disgust is indeed irrational, and it springs from fear. In this case, it is not just fear of the other, although that probably plays a part for many homophobes (who tend more often than not to be bigotted in other ways as well). It is fear for oneself; the fear that one may not be abel to control one's own sexual desires and orientation in what one considers to be the socially acceptable manner.
draqon:
Nowhere near as much as heterosexual people...
Gay people add colour to a multicultural society.
[quote...they also limit people in their choices (many people feel oppressed by that which has become gay...[/quote]
Nobody is forcing you to be gay.
1. They aren't.
2. It wouldn't be a bad thing if they were.
Some do.
if you cannot figure it out yourself i'm sorry but i can't help you
According to you, it's common in Dallas.baron said:
It's also common for a gay man to have had it happen to him.
Gay-bashing is a perfectly normal part of any conversation about the sources of violence toward gays.
And it illustrates the point: people are not as violent aboiut things that merely disgust them. Disgust does not explain gaybashing, or hatred of gays.
So from whence cometh the hatred, the violence, the extreme overreactions to otherwise inconsequential circumstance ? I've seen two common sources of such behavior - frustration, and fear. Barring evidence to the contrary, my assumption would be that frustration or fear underlie gaybashing, and my bet is on fear. Whether fear of oneself, or fear of something about the gay man, is another matter, but homophobia is a perfectly reasonable term for it.
James R,
Isn't it the permissiveness of Western liberal society which is pressuring these people into this situation though?
Can we really be sure about what causes harm to us?
Scientists seem to change their minds almost weekly concerning what foods are good for us or otherwise.
How can we possibly determine the effect homosexual behavior is having on the world?
So you're just adopting Tiassa's tactic of just saying something as if it's true and factual. And you keep saying until everyone believes it?? I think that's what Hitler did in the 30s, wasn't it?
Saying something, even if done over and over, doesn't make something true, James.
So saying it again, and again, makes it true?
And saying the same thing again makes it true? Like drumming things into people? Like rote memorization and brainwashing tactics?
So just saying it makes it true? And if you say it long enough and loud enough, then it's automatically true?
And I caution you, posting the opinions and theories of some psychiatrist or psychologist, in some attempt to "prove" your point is not proof at all, but just more of the same ....repeating something over and over until everyone believes it. I think that's usually termed "brainwashing", ain't it?
Baron Max