The Holy Quran

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Michael said:
Shadow, you do understand you continuously make circular arguments? Over an Over and OVER and OVER....

Let me demonstrate: You stated "we believe in all prophets". Oh, really. ALL prophets huh? Do you believe in The Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith Jr., Do you believe in the Prophet Ron Hubbard?
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oh, so those people are prophets?
the prophets (in islam)= who come carrying the message of beleiving in god, in one god, and none but god (no they are not christians, or muslims, or jews, they are all of those, they beleive in one god, and none but god)
and the last relegion of beleiving in god, was islam

No, you don't. Because Islam is not tolerant. Can you get that in your head? Your religion is founded on intolerance. It's so fundamental to your believe system thay you don't even "get it" when you about to say NO we don't "believe in" Ron Hubbard or the Mormon revelation.

"We"
"believe in"
"all"
"prophets"

My Gods, that sentence alone is so stuffed with gobbledygook it's take years to purge your hard drive. You know how your PC gets slower and slower as more and more viruses and malwar attack it and integrate into the OS? You can conciser Islam the mother of all malwar - which is why your OS runs around in circles making little to no progress :shrug:
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waaow, what a strong arguments and civilised discussion, i'm very impressed, really, very very impressed, pleas keep up with the good work

:peace:
 
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Michael have very strong arguments, and such civilised discussion :itold:

No, you don't. Because Islam is not tolerant. Can you get that in your head? Your religion is founded on intolerance. It's so fundamental to your believe system thay you don't even "get it" when you about to say NO we don't "believe in" Ron Hubbard or the Mormon revelation.

"We"
"believe in"
"all"
"prophets"

My Gods, that sentence alone is so stuffed with gobbledygook it's take years to purge your hard drive. You know how your PC gets slower and slower as more and more viruses and malwar attack it and integrate into the OS? You can conciser Islam the mother of all malwar - which is why your OS runs around in circles making little to no progress
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I didnt know you are so smart and wise :D

:roflmao:
 
shadow said:
nope, you can't actually, even arab speaking muslims, don't find it easy to understand some or many parts of quran
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Then we are faced with the fact that no one is basing their faith on any infallible message contined in the Quran itself - but on human authority instead.
shadow said:
so, anyway, why you (atheists) can't respect people's choice of that relegion or faith?
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There is nothing to respect in someone's attributing infallibility and eternal truth to some human authority.
NMS said:
and the quran (from what i get from not actually studying it) is the most confusing of the religious texts, yea it is honorable that it has not changed or edited, but there is value to making it clearer, more understandable.
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The most common source of trouble seems to be from modern people trying to avoid reading the Quran as saying stuff that modern people find physically in error, abhorrent and objectionable, obviously mistranslated or mistranscribed, or otherwise not indicative of its presumed perfection and holy eternal infallibility.

It reads pretty simple, at least in English, most of the time. As it spends much less time in retailing stories, parables, poetry, etc, and more time in straightforward assertion and declaration and recountings of event, it's certainly less subtle and inference dependent than the Bible.

More like the Book of Mormon might read, if a bunch of intelligent and sophisticated editors had been allowed to clean it up in the generation after the Prophet's death.
shadow said:
Let me demonstrate: You stated "we believe in all prophets". Oh, really. ALL prophets huh? Do you believe in The Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith Jr., Do you believe in the Prophet Ron Hubbard?
”
oh, so those people are prophets?
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They are much like Muhammed, except it is more certain they actually wrote their attributed books. Does that make them prophets?
 
iceaura said:
Then we are faced with the fact that no one is basing their faith on any infallible message contined in the Quran itself - but on human authority instead.
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no, there are the grammar rules, many many of them, and a person that is not specilized in that, and in quran studies and etc... can't explain all the parts of it, but they yeah by researching, and i didn't say all of it is not understandebal very much, but knowing that arabic, the correct one not the dilacts, have many corners and details and vocabluaries
for example, you may not beleive me, there are many parts of quran that are about real scientific facts, like other univerces, space expansion, big bang
for example
It is We Who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Surat adh-Dhariyat: 47)
Do those who are disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were sewn together and then We unstitched them and that We made from water every living thing? So will they not have faith? (Surat al-Anbiya': 30)
source
etc... and when it is in arabic, people who don't have a good know of the language, and the scientific fatcs and etc... can't notice those, just an example


They are much like Muhammed, except it is more certain they actually wrote their attributed books. Does that make them prophets?
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all who comes calling to beleive in god, and none but god, is a prophet
 
shadow said:
They are much like Muhammed, except it is more certain they actually wrote their attributed books. Does that make them prophets?
”
all who comes calling to beleive in god, and none but god, is a prophet
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So Joseph Smith is a prophet, then.
shadow said:
for example, you may not beleive me, there are many parts of quran that are about real scientific facts, like other univerces, space expansion, big bang for example
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That stuff wasn't in the Quran until recently - because the authorities you are relying on couldn't find it.

The authorities did not find that in the Quran until after modern scientists told them it was in the real world. Before that, the authorities found different meanings entirely in those verses. So you are relying on these authorities keeping up with modern science, and changing their interpretations of the Quran accordingly.

Similarly with women's rights, slavery, and other ethical or moral problems with the original Quran.

You are not getting your religion from the Quran. You are getting it from these authorities, who are capable of squaring the Quran with more modern understandings of moral, ethical, political, and physical reality. And that's a good thing, by and large, as long as you don't fool yourself about what's happening there.
 
Shadow1 said:
oh, so those people are prophets?
the prophets (in islam)= who come carrying the message of beleiving in god, in one god, and none but god (no they are not christians, or muslims, or jews, they are all of those, they beleive in one god, and none but god)
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The Mormon prophet Joseph Smith Jr. only believed in One God.

So? Do you believe in "All the prophets" or are you an intolerant Muslim brainwashed by Islam to only believe in Muslim prophets?


Shinto build places inside their Shrines for Buddhists to pray.
Buddhist build Shinto Shrines inside their Temples for Shinto.

Can you see how these two religions are accepting and tolerant of one another beliefs?


Now: IS Joseph Smith Jr a Prophet that you "believe in" Shadow? You said "I believe in ALL the Prophets". Well? Do you? Or are you intolerant and ONLY believe in YOUR prophets.

Islam IS NOT for everyone - it's ONLY for Muslims.
 
so would a prophet be recognized today or would he be dismissed as a religious nut?
 
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the last prophet was Mohamed (pbuh) and everyone before him, because he was the last one who came with the message, of beleving in one god and none but god.

and, ui'm very impressed by your civilized discussion and strong arguments, esspecially Michael :rolleyes:

i'm not going to waste my time, i have more important things to do
 
Shadow1 said:
the last prophet was Mohamed (pbuh) and everyone before him, because he was the last one who came with the message, of beleving in one god and none but god.

and, ui'm very impressed by your civilized discussion and strong arguments, esspecially Michael :rolleyes:

i'm not going to waste my time, i have more important things to do
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What are you whining about? You're the one that said you believe in all prophets. The fact is you do NOT believe in ALL prophet - you ONLY believe in Muslim prophets. Islam is not an inclusive religion and as a religious paradigm it is intolerant - - of even other very similar belief systems.

You phrase "I believe in all prophets" has been shown to be circular religious gobbledygook Islamic Malwar causing you to think in circular arguments as has been pointed out to you time and time again OVER and OVER and OVER. If you'd like your OS to work properly again, then please run a full system scan and delete as many Islamic memes as possible. If not, then keep thinking in circular intolerant gobbledygook where ONLY your Prophets are even Prophets, ONLY your books are Perfect and ONLY your Gods exist.
 
Guess who I am: I believe in all Perfect Books. Oh, only my book is perfect. I believe in all Gods. Oh, only my God exists. I believe in all Prophets. Oh, only my religions Prophets are real.

See the circle yet?
 
Shadow1 said:
no, there are the grammar rules, many many of them, and a person that is not specilized in that, and in quran studies and etc... can't explain all the parts of it, but they yeah by researching, and i didn't say all of it is not understandebal very much, but knowing that arabic,
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You don't understand what you follow?

I hope I never see another accusation against the Trinity on here. But I will.
 
greenboy said:
Please don't miss Catholics with Christian, catholics are a cult based in Christianity like muslims have several of those too.
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Oh of course. It's always the other believers that are a cult, isn't it?

The old pagan religion based of before the pre-Islamic religion were worshipers of the moon.
Among other things please read.
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/Hajj/umra.htm
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Er, that link doesn't even mention Catholics, let alone lend support to your contention.
 
Michael when they place in a country the Sharia Law That's is is the law of the land and nothing else is valid. Sharia (Arabic: means"way" or "path") is the sacred law of Islam. Most Muslims believe Sharia is derived from two primary sources of Islamic law: the divine revelations set forth in the Qur'an, and the example set by the Islamic Prophet Muhammad in the Sunnah.
Muslims believe Sharia is God's law, but they differ as to what exactly it entails. Once this law is the law of the land that forget about freedom the way you know it.
 
Hey

Knowing you for a while now I am not surprised of your comments... Catholic are a variation of Christianity. Wanted you or not...

Dywyddyr said:
Oh of course. It's always the other believers that are a cult, isn't it?


Er, that link doesn't even mention Catholics, let alone lend support to your contention.
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greenboy said:
Knowing you for a while now I am not surprised of your comments...
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Did you, or did you not write
catholics are a cult
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Did your link support that?

Catholic are a variation of Christianity. Wanted you or not...
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Okay.
So why did you also write
greenboy said:
Please don't miss Catholics with Christian
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Now I'll give you some leeway here, since I know your spelling is less than admirable, but I read the word "miss" (highlighted) as an attempt at "mix". If you meant otherwise then please rewrite the statement.
As it stands on the one hand you're telling us not to consider Catholics as Christian (don't mix them up with Christians) and that they are a "cult" and you are also saying they ARE "a variant of" Christianity.
Which of those positions do you actually hold?
Here's one view:
The three largest groups in the world of Christianity are the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox churches, and the various churches of Protestantism.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity
Or even
The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the world's largest Christian church
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church
Now, since Catholicism predates, for example, Protestantism and by a fair margin too, what leads you think that Catholicism is "variation". Surely Protestantism would be the variant. No?
 
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