The Broad Brush? Women and Men; Prejudice and Necessity

[Tiassa]

¿Human Rights as a Matter of Political Correctness?

I’m a woman, an attractive woman. I am very aware of misogynistic behavior, trust me.

Well, see, that's the thing; one can reasonably presume you're aware of misogynistic behavior.

As to whether you're attractive, that's a matter of opinion, and, frankly, I don't care; it's irrelevant.

My comment was factitious, and on the abortion issue, at that. She took from that, that I was a rape advocate, and would enjoy watching another woman get raped, that I would actually cheer it on. That is highly offensive, not to mention extremely odd.

Reminds me of the radio hosts a few years ago who couldn't understand why rape survivors would be upset by jokes about raping famous women to death because they're bitches. You know, just a joke.

I am in no way romanticizing a mass murderer or in any way justifying misogyny. I don’t understand why you would say that?

Well, there is nothing unexpected about the idea that you would try making that claim, but your post at #31 is nearly swooning.

What you don't seem to understand is that a general classification of disorder can have diverse manifestations. Elliot Rodger was psycho? Well, of course he was. But why did his psychopathy emerge and express itself as it did?

While you're at it, why don't you try excusing Gary Lee Ridgway? After all, he only targeted women he thought were prostitutes. Maybe you can try arguing he didn't hate women so much as want to clean up the neighborhood by littering the bodies elsewhere.

I don’t understand why you think it’s fair to equate Elliot Rodger to all men in our society.

It would appear that you fail to understand the rhetoric you're dealing with, but that's hardly unexpected when you're holding a position out of spite.

In other words, what you express that you do not understand is your own damn invention. There is a real and functional difference between abstraction and effect. If it is a woman's job to stop men from raping, then all men are potential threats. What you don't understand, then, is a result of the Infinite Protection Advocacy so many women are sick of and any number of men can see clearly as the daylight.

Get rid of the IPA and apologism that places the burden of a man's behavior on women, and the question of all men in our society evaporates. That question is a product of rape justification arguments.

I left out all of your unnecessary insults, but honestly, I don’t see how you can call me a rape advocate and misogynist with a clear conscience.

As I said, it's more likely a matter of ego dystonia or self-loathing. But when you decide to back rape advocates because you don't like the person they're arguing with, yeah, you're a fucking rape advocate and misogynist.

You should probably stop ignoring so much of other people's posts.

I said that political correctness should not trump common sense and good judgment.

If you don't like being seen as a rape advocate and misogynist, then perhaps you should stop characterizing women's human rights as a matter of "political correctness".

 

[cluelusshusbund]

This should be super easy (without cheating). Billvon has stated that we should just be able to tell these things.

Its prolly Number 4... an if not its number 5.!!!

Wrong again on both counts.

Hmmm... then my guess is... Billvon is wrong.!!!

 

[Bells]

Hmmm... then my guess is... Billvon is wrong.!!!

He's too busy digging the trench.

 

[Trooper]

yeah, you're a fucking rape advocate and misogynist.

Definitely not. You're just excessively sensitive to criticism and overly dramatic.

And Bells is being manipulative.

 

[Alerya]

Number 3 is the rapist

The reason I didn't want to say 3, honestly, is to me he looks just like Michael Phelps, and I don't want to think of Michael Phelps as a rapist, but as Kitt said, I did say I wouldn't have been surprised to find it was any of them, especially knowing that most rapes are acquaintance rapes and how many rapes go unreported every year because of that fact. Many raped women (AND MEN) are ashamed to admit that they have been raped, and most of those are even more ashamed because of the fact that it is someone they know. Unfortunately rape is far too common and too many people have come to see some of the most common types of rapes (such as spousal rape) as not truly being rape.

If the other person says no, is incapable of giving consent, or is too far gone due to alcohol/drugs/whatever, it is rape, no matter the circumstances, no matter who it is that is having sex with them. Plain and simple. A person can "do everything right" and still end up being raped in their own home by someone they know. Nothing any man or woman does is a 100% guarantee that they will not be raped.

No, this post is not aimed at anyone. Just getting my point out there while I am posting anyway putting in my two cents about the picture.

 

[Tiassa]

Accidents of Vice

Definitely not. You're just excessively sensitivity to criticism and overly dramatic.

I wouldn't call your clueless vice "criticism".

And, see, "accidental" rape advocacy does achieve a certain parity with "accidental" rape itself: I don't really care how one construes the accident.

But neither do I really care if you can't figure out the problem with adopting a factually incorrect stance simply because you don't like the person on the other side of the argument. If that is enough to make you stoop to rape advocacy and defense of misogyny?

Okay, then. As you like.

 

[Trooper]

I wouldn't call your clueless vice "criticism".

And, see, "accidental" rape advocacy does achieve a certain parity with "accidental" rape itself: I don't really care how one construes the accident.

But neither do I really care if you can't figure out the problem with adopting a factually incorrect stance simply because you don't like the person on the other side of the argument. If that is enough to make you stoop to rape advocacy and defense of misogyny?

Okay, then. As you like.

Obviously, you don’t possess the ability to view the world from the perspective of other people.

I was advocating rape prevention, not rape, smart one.

I don't know who may murder me either, but I'm still cautious.

Rape Prevention

You're being overly defensive, Tiassa.

 

[Bells]

Ah. And since I don't do that, I guess that makes you a liar.

Nope. Never said that.

Nope. Never said that.

However, a woman should use common sense and not marry violent, irresponsible and/or criminal men. Fortunately most make such sensible decisions - which is why that particular bit of sense is, in fact, common. This, of course, does not excuse rape.

When asked how a woman is meant to know that the guy she marries isn't going to rape her one day, since it is such a common misconception that there are such visible signs..

How is a woman to know that the man she has known and trusted for years is going to rape her one day?

She can't. It is still a good idea to attempt to prevent it. See examples above.

See, these common sense rape prevention strategies always, and I mean always, deliberately ignore that the majority of rapes are committed by men and women known to the rapist. Most are in a very close relationship with their rapist prior to the rape. I know, I get it, you're just one of those people who believe that women just know these things, that they can read the signs.

Nope. But I believe that women who prepare themselves and make good decisions are less likely to be the victims of crime, including rape. (And to forestall your next departure, it is also true that any people who prepare themselves are less likely to be the victims of crime.) Do you disagree?

Note I am not saying they can absolutely PREVENT crime. I am saying they can reduce its likelihood.

And how do you propose that women prepare themselves to prevent being raped?

Use good judgment in what parties to attend. What to wear. Who to date. What to drink and how much. What to tell people they talk to. How to let people know when they are worried about someone's attention. How to escape risky situations. How to defend themselves.

I would love to know what drinks or clothes you think will prevent women from being raped. Since I have known women to become a victim of rape after one glass of wine and others while wearing flanny pj's to bed.

You're a man. What clothes do you wear for rape prevention? What do you avoid drinking to prevent yourself from being raped?

And you, since women rape as well.

Of course. Same for pretty much everyone you know and don't know.

Definitely. In fact, not getting too drunk is a good way to reduce the odds of ANY violent attack - for men and women alike.

Not really. Victims of violent attacks can be just as sober as they can be drunk. See, the onus is on the attacker to not attack the other. Not for people to alter their lives to the point of what "what to wear" because some random individual may or may not one day decide to rape or attack them.

Nope.

Well according to you, she is being irresponsible for 1) getting drunk and 2) marrying someone who turned out to be her rapist.

Cool, since I never claimed that.

You claimed there are signs.. All of which mean zip, since the rapist will usually want to hide that they are a rapist.

I could show you pictures of six cars and ask you to tell me which one had the drunk driver in it. You would be unable to as well.

Well, you believe that we are meant to know who is going to rape us. Surely one of the first queues is what he looks like. I could be in a bar and have 6 men looking at me, talking to me and wanting me to answer them and buying me a drink. Which one of them would be the possible rapist?

Do you wear a seatbelt?

Well yes. The law dictates that I do.

Yes. And the cars that drunk drivers drive often look like any other cars. And thieves often look like ordinary people. And serial killers often look like the guy next door.

Which begs the question of how you seem to believe that women should know and be responsible to not marry someone who may rape them one day in the future..

Still, if you use those facts to decide that you can do nothing to help yourself - and you tell people they are victims with no control over their own destinies - you will get people raped (and assaulted, and killed.) Decide if that's what you want to do.

And here is the point you miss entirely. While I may have absolute control over my own destiny, I have absolutely no control over what is going through the mind of a would be rapist, whoever he or she may be. Now, I could certainly control my destiny by assuming that everyone around me is a possible rapist, but what sort of life would that result in? One of paranoia, fear, terror? I'm already there. What more do you want?

See, I controlled my destiny, I was in my home and someone I knew broke into my home and raped me while I was asleep. And when I see people such as yourself trying to lecture me about how to control my destiny to avoid being raped, I throw up a bit in my mouth because it is so clear that you have absolutely no idea. Do you live in a bubble?

Depends how well I know them. Have I known them all my life? Then the odds are very low that they will try to drug me. Were they just convicted of rape? Then the odds are high. Again, common sense.

Rape victims often know their rapists for years or all their lives before they are raped.

Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.1
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.1
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.1
28% are an intimate.1
7% are a relative.1​

Why do you think the odds are so low?

Not unless you want to. Up to you.

So why do you think people should be learning to read the signs that aren't there or easily seen?

If you mean that your rape taught you more about rape than her rape taught this woman - you would have to take that up with her. She disagrees with your "just be a victim" approach, and would be much more suited to the conversation than I would be.

Well you advised how she was actually raped in response to my comments.. At no time did I claim she was more of a victim or vice versa. I just find your response to be bizarre. You do realise that not everyone responds to it the same way? Or are you one of those people who believe that only certain responses are correct? Nor have I ever said 'just be a victim'. So I find it strange that you believe I am. Well not strange. People like you often make such arguments. Not surprising really.

You have said over and over again that there is NO WAY to protect yourself against rape. You ridicule the very idea. The only remaining choice is to submit.

Then you clearly have a comprehension issue or you are being deliberately dishonest. I have said there is no way for someone to know who her rapist may be in response to your ridiculous claim that if a woman wants to prevent or reduce her chances of being raped, then she should be more responsible and not marry someone who could rape her in the future.

But I will ask you directly. If a woman is at risk of being raped - should she act to protect herself?

Well why wouldn't she?

But how is she to know she is at risk? Or do you expect women to live a life of hyper alertness just in case?

OK by me. You clearly hate my guts. And given your stated views on the subject - that is absolutely fine with me.

No. See, I am just following your advice. You're just a complete stranger on the internet. I don't know who you are. Why should I trust you? So I am being responsible by your very standards. Just as you should be as well.

 

[Bells]

The reason I didn't want to say 3, honestly, is to me he looks just like Michael Phelps, and I don't want to think of Michael Phelps as a rapist, but as Kitt said, I did say I wouldn't have been surprised to find it was any of them, especially knowing that most rapes are acquaintance rapes and how many rapes go unreported every year because of that fact. Many raped women (AND MEN) are ashamed to admit that they have been raped, and most of those are even more ashamed because of the fact that it is someone they know. Unfortunately rape is far too common and too many people have come to see some of the most common types of rapes (such as spousal rape) as not truly being rape.

If the other person says no, is incapable of giving consent, or is too far gone due to alcohol/drugs/whatever, it is rape, no matter the circumstances, no matter who it is that is having sex with them. Plain and simple. A person can "do everything right" and still end up being raped in their own home by someone they know. Nothing any man or woman does is a 100% guarantee that they will not be raped.

No, this post is not aimed at anyone. Just getting my point out there while I am posting anyway putting in my two cents about the picture.

Absolutely excellent points.

 

[pjdude1219]

Obviously, you don’t possess the ability to view the world from the perspective of other people.

I was advocating rape prevention, not rape, smart one.

I don't know who may murder me either, but I'm still cautious.

Rape Prevention

You're being overly defensive, Tiassa.

I suppose your solution to murder is don't look murderable?


you can keep saying your advocating rape prevention but your not.looking at what your saying doesn't come across as protect your self but as if you have not done these things you deserve to be raped.

 

[Kittamaru]

I suppose your solution to murder is don't look murderable?

you can keep saying your advocating rape prevention but your not.looking at what your saying doesn't come across as protect your self but as if you have not done these things you deserve to be raped.

And that's the rub - rape isn't like theft or mugging where targets are picked because they look affluent... don't want to be mugged? Don't go out into a bad part of town wearing a 200 karrot diamond beset with rubies and a six thousand dollar gold chain and four thousand dollar mink coat...

Don't want to be raped? Don't look... like... well, what, exactly? Don't "look like a target"? What defines a "rape target"? Being an 18 year old woman who's husband just passed away?

I mean, yeah, some could say "don't dress like a slut"... but herein again... what looks "slutty" on one person could look absolutely stunning and tasteful on another.

 

[Trooper]

you can keep saying your advocating rape prevention but your not.looking at what your saying doesn't come across as protect your self but as if you have not done these things you deserve to be raped.

That link was from the Nation Library of Medicine.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/007461.htm

This does not make me a rape advocate.

Here, I think, is an aspect our neighbors are overlooking: If it's ever, say, Trooper's turn to be fucked and beaten into a bloody pulp in an alley, should we treat her with the same cruel hatred she shows rape survivors today?

The thing is that as much as we might think such a moment would bring us satisfaction, it doesn't. Poetic justice that ends up with the class asshole finding a Slurpee poured down his shorts is one thing, but there is no justice, poetic or otherwise, in the idea of Trooper being fucked and beaten into code blue. It is always easy to dispense self-righteous, hateful advice if one entertains the notion that they are somehow immune. But I sincerely doubt that, should it ever be Trooper's turn, or perhaps someone close to her, that she will cling to this misogyny she's undertaken for the sake of how she does or doesn't like someone else.

Your continued use of foul language and overly aggressive behavior is making me uncomfortable.

 

[pjdude1219]

That link was from the Nation Library of Medicine.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/007461.htm

This does not make me a rape advocate.

your link doesn't make you a rape advocate; your piss-poor attitude, your endless equivocating, and your focus on the victims does .

Your continued use of foul language and overly aggressive behavior is making me uncomfortable.

if you want to be treated with kids gloves perhaps you shouldn't have attacked people. for god's sake you had the audacity to attack a rape victim for mentioning there rape and suggesting they were trying "score points" by mentioning it.

 

[Trooper]

your link doesn't make you a rape advocate; your piss-poor attitude, your endless equivocating, and your focus on the victims does .




if you want to be treated with kids gloves perhaps you shouldn't have attacked people. for god's sake you had the audacity to attack a rape victim for mentioning there rape and suggesting they were trying "score points" by mentioning it.

Where in the hell did you get that idea from? I never said anything like that at all.

You're really weird.

 

[Tiassa]

Brief Notes

Brief Notes

Dan Savage on the hashtag war of the sexes:

In the wake of the killings at Isla Vista, and all the #YesAllWomen and #NotAllMen hashtag campaigns, I want a change in the dialogue. I want to hear the story of the man who warned a woman after he found out a friend was planning on drugging her, the story of the man who dropped a friend when he found out that his friend had assaulted his girlfriend, the story of the man who blamed the vindictive ex for posting private naked photos and not his female partner who was being victimized. I want to hear those stories. Can you ask your readers to send in stories that will give us women hope that the men who say they are on our side understand and are standing up for us in their everyday lives?

One Sad Woman

The #YesAllWomen and #NotAllMen were not concurrent, complementary Twitter hashtag campaigns, OSW.

After Elliot Rodger decided to murder the women who had rejected him—women he felt entitled to, per his deranged and misogynistic "manifesto"—millions of women began tweeting under #YesAllWomen about the sexism, sexual violence, and misogyny they experience on a daily basis. When some men—but not all men (sorry)—began responding to those tweets with variations on "We're not all like that!" the #NotAllMen hashtag was born, OSW, and it was a critique. As Phil Plait wrote at Slate: "Why is it not helpful to say 'Not all men are like that'? For lots of reasons. For one, women know this. They already know not every man is a rapist, or a murderer, or violent. They don't need you to tell them... Instead of being defensive and distracting from the topic at hand [misogyny, sexism, violence], try staying quiet for a while and actually listening to what the thousands upon thousands of women discussing this are saying."

So I'm a little hesitant to invite men to share their not-all-like-that stories, OSW, because I agree with Plait: Maybe men should shut up and listen? And then there's this: It's also entirely possible for a guy to do the right thing on one occasion—dropping a male friend who did something shitty to a female friend—and then immediately turn around and do something deeply shitty himself. Men shouldn't be encouraged to think that one noble act frees them—frees all of us—from our collective responsibility as men to fight sexism and misogyny. (A quick note to my fellow faggots: What's in fighting sexism and misogyny for us? Well, homophobes hate us because they perceive us to be like women—we're effeminate, we're cocksuckers, we're penetrated. Homophobia is misogyny's little brother, and a less misogynistic world is going to be a less homophobic world. So if you won't fight sexism and misogyny for the sake of your moms, sisters, nieces, and female friends—and there's something wrong with you if you won't do it for them—then do it for yourselves, boys.)

But I'm running your letter, OSW, and inviting women—stick a cork in it, menz—to jump into the comment thread and share your stories about men who've done the right thing. This is not meant to exonerate men of their responsibility to fight sexism and misogyny, or to minimize the problem because "not all men are like that," but to give men who are reading concrete examples of what it looks like when a dude fights sexism and misogyny.​

It should be noted, and some of his readers corrected him on this point, that Mr. Savage has the hashtag chronology wrong.

And last month, in the wake of Isla Vista, Madeline Davies wrote:

They don't believe us. Hundreds of thousands of women from around the world can weigh in and tell their first hand experiences and there are men out there — seemingly reasonable and intelligent men — who still refuse to admit that maybe, just maybe, we have good reasons to be afraid. A 22-year-old kid spouts the same misogynist rhetoric that my coworkers and I receive in our inboxes on a daily basis and goes on a shooting rampage with the expressed purpose of punishing women for not giving him the sexual attention he felt entitled to and we're still told that we have no right to be scared because #NotAllMen are like that.

As Michelle Dean wrote yesterday on Gawker:

People who live with that risk learn to presume the worst. Living your life in preparation for the moment when a man possibly snaps and tries to kill you can bring on serious resentment. Resentment not just of men, though there is that, but of the way that even mentioning that risk makes you subject to claims that you are "oversimplifying" how men behave. That you somehow have a lesser read on human nature and violence than the more reasonable sort who, not having had to deal with the behavior, claim you must have imagined it. Even when you literally have the YouTube video proving you aren't making it up.​

​

And those who want to remind women how to prevent men from raping need only keep reading:

In college, I had a male roommate who badgered me endlessly about my frequent choice to take a cab home from my restaurant job where I would — more often than not — clock out well after midnight. The walk from work to our house wasn't long (maybe 20 minutes), but it was poorly lit and remote, taking you over railroad tracks and past warehouses. Honestly, it shouldn't have mattered if the walk was 5 minutes and through the busiest part of town — I was paying for the taxi with my own money and it was my own business, but for some reason, it drove my otherwise decent roommate mad. He would call me lazy. He would imply that I was cowardly and weak. On multiple occasions, we got into shouting matches about it that left me feeling stupid, small and crazy.

While we were living together, a girl at our university was murdered by a stranger who broke into her on-campus apartment. They never caught the man who did it and still, my roommate couldn't see why I would get mad when I came home to find our house unlocked and empty or why I'd be mildly nervous about being alone and vulnerable.

That was years ago, but recently, we met up for dinner.

"I've gotta apologize about something, Mads," he said, pouring a glass of wine. "I know I used to give you a hard time about not wanting to walk alone at night, but a couple weeks ago around bar time, I saw a girl get attacked. It was crazy."

To my friend's credit, he didn't stand by and simply watch the attack happen. He tried his best to help, but I still left the conversation with a sour taste in my mouth. I tried so many times to tell him about the scary realities of existing while female and he, like all of those dudes on Twitter, refused to believe me. He had to see someone undergo traumatic assault with his own eyes before he would recognize what we women know inherently.​

Imagine that, a woman taking precautions and getting shit from a male in her life for doing so. And the male? Well, you know, it's good that he finally figured it out, but the problem with having to see it happen in front of him is that it's happening at all.

An' I'll tellyawhat, boys, it's not just us men; she saves some of that venom for herself, too.
____________________

Notes:

Savage, Dan. "Savage Love". The Stranger. June 18, 2014. TheStranger.com. June 18, 2014. http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=19896960

Davies, Madeleine. "I Am Not an Angry Feminist. I'm a Furious One." Jezebel. May 28, 2014. Jezebel.com. June 18, 2014. http://jezebel.com/i-am-not-an-angry-feminist-im-a-furious-one-1582748709

 

[Bells]

Where in the hell did you get that idea from? I never said anything like that at all.

You're really weird.

You just agreed with the guy who did. And very openly.

Your continued use of foul language and overly aggressive behavior is making me uncomfortable.

Why is that?

See, the difference you fail to note is that if something as awful as that were to ever happen to you, he would never tell you it was just about sex, nor would he lecture you about drinking, taking your clothes off or getting into bed with a guy. In fact, he'd show you the empathy you are clearly unable to have or show. I also know that if anyone commented about what your agenda was if you dared to bring it up, or if another reminded you that it was just sex and commented that a moose will have a go at a tree stump to prove that point, or another a mallard duck having sex with a dead duck, or another who insinuates that you should simply have known better or another who compared women to a laptop, an object that was desired in a round about way of reminding you just how you should have protected yourself to prevent yourself from being raped, or worse yet, gained some sick pleasure out of abusing you for your experience.. his response to them would be just as visceral. And so would mine. But then again, I am not you.

One can only hope that if it ever happens to someone close to you, that you keep your misogyny on a tight leash, like you have failed to do here.

It is easy to be like you. We've seen that aplenty in this thread already. You have tried to explain yourself by claiming that it is because of who you argue against. And so be it. If that is your excuse, then good for you. But I don't know what's worse. That you would sink so low? Or that perhaps you actually are such a fawning apologist for that level of misogyny. You accuse me of having a man hating agenda because I detest misogyny. One could just as well ask you what your agenda is for defending it so soundly.

I don't hate men, Trooper. I just hate misogyny. But I now see why you can't tell the difference. And for that I pity you. Because I cannot imagine what led you to think that the two are one and the same. It must be a truly awful thing.

 

[pjdude1219]

Where in the hell did you get that idea from? I never said anything like that at all.

You're really weird.

Your posts is where I got it from. Or am I to honestly believe that your truly that clueless? What is it about the internet that's makes people think claiming to be stupid is a valid defense

 

[GeoffP]

Yikes.

This is a really bruising discussion/argument to read.

The tenor of the discussion is deliberately and hurtfully personal from almost all participants.

I think you should all consider backing off before you do even more permanent damage. It may already be too late.

In my opinion, this is not the kind of tone we should be encouraging here.

I think the tone has arisen as a result of some of the stances of the contributors. I can appreciate a strong sense of outrage over the raising of an outrageous topic, but the threshold for this seems very low for some of those same contributors; the thread then becomes a witch hunt. "Where is the sexist/rapist/misogynist?" they cry. "I know there's one here! Is it you? You? You? On whom can I stick this tail?" There's kind of an intellectual disjunction where it's thought - emotionally or otherwise - that by making other posters targets, the sin of sexual assault can be somehow expunged. But this is just an internet forum. Might as well just close the thread.

Which case do you think is extreme?

Palmer and Thornhill.

Should we blame this on your comprehension skills?

Just sarcasm and justified indignation.

I cited the studies. You can make of it what you will. You have yet to cite a single study of actual rapists, to support your contention in this thread.

The biological evidence of some presumably historical meme is very strong. The studies cited are pilots. They would be able to detect major effects - such as those arising from damaged psychologies - but not some minor, distal impulse. (I suppose, on reflection, that 'trigger' connotes a more proximal and important promoter. Mea culpa; this is not what was meant.)

And what is your point again?

Let's face it, you have been supporting the side that actively places the blame on women.

The fuck I have. How in the hell is supposing some minor atavistic meme for sexual exploitation placing the blame on women in anything but the deluded scenarios you concoct? Jesus, if you're really that out of sorts about the fact that Republicans exist, why not go after them? You know, there was some decent discussion above, for a moment, and then this unsupportable shit again. Here's more in the same vein:

And what do you think you earned when upon learning that I had been raped, you went on to dismiss it as being just about sex, biological and then commented that even moose try to fuck a tree to get off?

Bells, it's not my job to validate your life experiences. I am not to blame for anything that happened, is happening, or will happen to you. If you're angry about something, talk to a support specialist, not me. Done.

 

[Bells]

I think the tone has arisen as a result of some of the stances of the contributors. I can appreciate a strong sense of outrage over the raising of an outrageous topic, but the threshold for this seems very low for some of those same contributors; the thread then becomes a witch hunt. "Where is the sexist/rapist/misogynist?" they cry. "I know there's one here! Is it you? You? You? On whom can I stick this tail?" There's kind of an intellectual disjunction where it's thought - emotionally or otherwise - that by making other posters targets, the sin of sexual assault can be somehow expunged. But this is just an internet forum. Might as well just close the thread.

Well, when someone says that women should be taking certain actions to prevent being raped, such as watching how she dresses, what she drinks, who she talks to, what party she goes to, who she marries, what would you call that?

Your silence on the issue is noted however. Very much so.

Palmer and Thornhill.

The thing is, GeoffP, if you are going to advocate a position, and then bring up certain authors, people are going to assume this is what you believe in. But how is their position extreme to you? What is extreme about it? Their belief that if only women would just enjoy it? Their comments about rape prevention and how women should be acting and dressing a certain way to avoid being raped? That particular position is being argued in this very thread, by the very people who rushed to your defense. Kremmen likened a woman and her body to that of a laptop being left exposed and in plain sight in a car, Billvon, well, frankly, the less said about that one the better. Trooper is too busy arguing for misogyny because of who she is arguing against while also plugging rape prevention.

So which position of theirs do you find extreme? Why do you find it extreme?

Just sarcasm and justified indignation.

Is that what you call it?

The biological evidence of some presumably historical meme is very strong.

No actually. It isn't.

What you have is opinion that it could be. Sociobiologists have yet to do any studies on rapists to back up this assertion. Palmer and Thornhill used a study on scorpion flies and we are expected to believe that this proves their point about humans? Ermm okay. So where are the studies on rapists?

As I said, show some studies on rapists, on people, to support your claim. As one geneticists I quoted points out, there is absolutely no genetic evidence to support this assertion. Just the opinion that it could be, and so, from that, we should say that is how it is?

The studies cited are pilots. They would be able to detect major effects - such as those arising from damaged psychologies - but not some minor, distal impulse. (I suppose, on reflection, that 'trigger' connotes a more proximal and important promoter. Mea culpa; this is not what was meant.)

In 1979, A. Nicholas Groth, an American clinical psychologist working with both victims and offender populations, published a study of over 500 rapists. In his study, he found that rape, like other crimes that satisfy emotional needs, is complex and multi-determined. That is to say, that the act of rape itself serves a number of psychological needs and purposes (motives) for the offender. The purpose of his work was clinical, to understand the motivations of rapists for the purpose of the development of effective treatment plans.​

As I said, he wrote the book on rapists and rape typologies. Also wrote the book on child abusers and pedophiles. I could believe the guy who studied over 500 rapists, or I could believe a couple of sociobiologists who keep referring to Thornhill and Palmer's book (and they do repeatedly) while whining about feminists and advocating rape prevention - based solely on opinion and belief and vague tweaking of studies to support their claims? As a scientists, which would you believe? The person who studied over 500 rapists and wrote the book for law enforcement and universities to use in regards to rape and rapists in legal, psychology, psychiatric, law enforcement courses? Or the person who studied scorpion flies?

The fuck I have. How in the hell is supposing some minor atavistic meme for sexual exploitation placing the blame on women in anything but the deluded scenarios you concoct? Jesus, if you're really that out of sorts about the fact that Republicans exist, why not go after them? You know, there was some decent discussion above, for a moment, and then this unsupportable shit again. Here's more in the same vein:

Because that is what sociobiologists argue and what your very vocal supporters in this thread argue. Have you failed to notice that?

Pray tell, which part of decent discussion was there above? The rape prevention advocacy from billvon, trooper, captain kremmen? Or the discussion about science? About science, I definitely agree. Which begs the question as to why you are ignoring it?

Bells, it's not my job to validate your life experiences. I am not to blame for anything that happened, is happening, or will happen to you. If you're angry about something, talk to a support specialist, not me. Done.

I never said it was your job or that you are to blame. Far from it.

But when you advocate a position that diminishes what I experienced to be just 'sex' and demean me in the process by declaring that what I experienced was not about control because it couldn't be, that it had to be about sex, because that is what you personally believe has to be the case, then you're damn straight I'm going to disagree with you.

I will certainly disagree with you when you ignore science, dismiss and discredit "social sciences", because you want something to be true without any evidence that it is true.

Let me ask you a question. It has been found that sex offenders, especially the case for paedophiles, who display or exhibit paraphilias have found that chemical castration can reduce their sex drive. As a result, recidivism amongst these groups are quite low if previous studies in Europe are any indication (where castration (especially chemical castration) is offered at times for some sex offenders - again, usually those who are sexually attracted to children). But not all agree and the results are not always supportive of this.. However, what they have found is that sex offenders who display anti-social behaviour or psychotic behaviour, castration is virtually ineffective.

We will understand chemical castration as the administration of CPA, MPA, or GnRH agonists where the intention is to reduce testosterone to prepubescent levels. Chemical castration of sex offenders has most frequently targeted individuals exhibiting paraphilias. Not all sex offenders suffer from paraphilia and not all paraphiliacs are sex offenders. However, paraphilias are more prevalent in sex offenders than in the general population, with exhibitionism and paedophilia being most common (Gordon and Grubin 2004; Thibaut et al. 2010). Chemical castration via administration of CPA and MPA has been found effective in reducing recidivism in sexual offenders with paraphilias in some small-scale, controlled studies (e.g., Fedoroff et al. 1992; Maletzky, Tolan, and McFarland 2006; Meyer et al. 1992). However, other studies found no significant effect (e.g., Hucker, Langevin, and Bain 1988; Maletzky 1991).2 Several studies have shown high efficacy rates for GnRH agonists in dramatically reducing testosterone levels and self-reported deviant sexual desires and behaviours, including in individuals who did not respond to CPA or MPA. However, no randomised controlled trials have yet been published (Thibaut et al. 2010). Thus, for both traditional agents and GnRH agonists, evidence for effectiveness is not robust. Moreover, chemical castration appears to be ineffective in antisocial or psychopathic sex offenders who do not suffer from paraphilia (Berlin 2009), and certain comorbidities may preclude effective intervention in individuals with paraphilia (Saleh and Guidry 2003).​

Why do you think that is?

Why is it that the lowering of a rapist's sex drive ineffective if said rapist is not solely driven by his or her arousal - such as a paedophile who is sexually aroused by children?

 

[Kittamaru]

Where in the hell did you get that idea from? I never said anything like that at all.

You're really weird.

Trooper... here's the thing... that is now the fifth or sixth person to think you have done just that... my wife, after reading through the thread, turned to me and asked simply why you and GeoffP seem intent on making this issue as muddy as possible... and she has absolutely zero vested interest in this site at all...

If all these people are getting that kind of vibe from you, then whether you intend it or not, perhaps, just perhaps, that is actually how you are coming across, and you should rethink what you are saying to ensure that your ACTUAL intent is clear.