I do not know.
THE BIBLICAL EXODUS ACCOUNT
- Thread starter SetiAlpha6
- Start date
I do not know.
Actually, all the evidence would prove is that Jews were in Egypt and then left. It would say nothing about whether Jewish or Christian theology is factual. In the same way, I could write a sci-fi novel featuring the events of 9/11, but the fact that 9/11 happened wouldn't prove the whole book was non-fiction.
Well, there goes your evidence.
So I tell you the truth that I don't know and the Petroglyph disappears into thin air.
That would be a miracle, there is hope for you.
OK, if that is what you really want?
I just think it should be investigated by someone who might have a shot at doing it correctly instead of me.
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The information on this site may interest you.
https://againstjebelallawz.wordpress.com/jebel-al-lawz/
https://againstjebelallawz.wordpress.com/jebel-al-lawz/
Unfortunately, if you can't demonstrate for us on this forum with a link or otherwise that it is from the correct time period, then you must abandon it as evidence in support of your argument.
Otherwise you are using a technique known as the Gish Gallop.
The Gish Gallop is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of small arguments that their opponent cannot possibly answer or address each one in real time. More often than not, these myriad arguments are full of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments — the only condition is that there be many of them, not that they be particularly compelling on their own.
Lots of crappy evidence doesn't add up to good evidence.
Thanks Captain!
I have read all of that before, and everyone else should read it as well.
In my opinion, the website is a classic example of Gish Gallop.
The Gish Gallop is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of small arguments that their opponent cannot possibly answer or address each one in real time. More often than not, these myriad arguments are full of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments — the only condition is that there be many of them, not that they be particularly compelling on their own.
Lots of crappy arguments that do not add up to good arguments.
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I just said that it should be investigated and now I am doing Gish Gallop?
And I am completely honest about my limit of knowledge?
And I provide an internet link, and it is rejected for no reason?
Come on?
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Double Post
I'm not saying you are doing that, but you are getting close. Also your notion that chariot wheels were discovered in the Dead Sea is an obvious hoax.
http://www.snopes.com/religion/redsea.asp
You should really not depend on that for your argument.
http://www.snopes.com/religion/redsea.asp
You should really not depend on that for your argument.
Bells
Staff member
Coral does not grow that fast as to cover it in a matter of months to preserve it.
It should also be noted that the gold wheels, etc supposedly found were super-imposed on the coral formation.
These wheels would have been made from very thin pieces of wood. Not gold. I provided you with more than enough links to show the history of such vehicles in Egypt for you to know that there is no way that documentary was saying the truth.
Also, not only would the current have shifted them around and away, but they would have been buried in sand and silt.
Not resting on top of the sand like it was shown in the video after thousands of years.
Then comes the fact that the Gulf of Aqaba is literally full of shipwrecks and other vehicles, which means metal parts from those ships and boats are scattered all over the place and yes, some even look like wheels, which is why it is such an attractive diving spot.
If metal ships, sunk in the last 100 years are so corroded that they warn divers to not touch them or tie ropes to any parts of it because it will break it, do you really think very thin pieces of wood would have survived that long or maintained its shape like that?
The thing with coral is that it covers everything. It would not have kept the wheel shape. The upright or the central beam between the two wheels would have collapsed under the weight.
They certainly would not have remained sitting on top of the sand as though just placed there in that position. Because they would have been buried in the sand.
I doubt anyone in their right mind would accept something so flimsy as being evidence of anything.
It is all a scam. Which is why Christian religious groups and publications denounced Ron Wyatt and his associates years ago about their discoveries and why not a single biblical scholar, scientist, archaeologist agrees with him and his cohorts. And he made a lot of money out of it and his associates and those who continue his work continue to make an insane amount of money out of it, because they prey on the stupid and the gullible to buy their stories.
Many have checked them out. Ron Wyatt and his associates have swindled a lot of money that his own religion denounced him as a fraud. As Wayne Jackson from Christian Courier notes:
His work has been debunked thoroughly by professional archaeologists and respected biblical scholars. On August 8, 1996, Joe Zias, Curator of Anthropology/Archaeology with the Israel Antiquities Authority (Jerusalem), issued the following statement:
Wyatt’s religious affiliation was with the Seventh-day Adventist sect. Ironically, the most thorough exposé of the gentleman’s claims was produced by two scholars of his own denomination, Russell R. and Colin D. Standish.
The Standish brothers were identical twins who were from New South Wales, Australia. Russell (who died in 2008) was a physician, hospital administrator, and a medical missionary; Colin is the founder and president of Hartland College in Virginia. Both were ordained as ministers in the conservative branch of SDA church. They have been prolific writers, co-authoring numerous books, among which is Holy Relics or Revelation – Recent Astounding Archaeological Claims Evaluated (hereafter designated as HRR).
______________________________________________________
In this brief review of the Standish brothers’ book, we offer two devastating examples of the hoaxes perpetrated by Ron Wyatt. Actually, the ninety-plus examples, touted by Wyatt and his followers, is a “house of cards” that falls under the weight of its own absurdity! Consider the following two most sensational examples.
Bones and Chariot Wheels
Wyatt claimed to have discovered the exact place where the Israelites crossed the Red Sea on dry ground, before the waters returned and drowned Pharaoh’s forces. He contended that he explored the floor of the Gulf of Aqaba, using scuba gear. Supposedly, he discovered “chariot litter” in the form of wheels, body frames, and the bones of both humans and horses, scattered over a lengthy area.
Several things may be said of this claim (HRR, 184ff). First, the site of the exodus route, as described in Exodus 14:1ff, is highly disputed. The three specific sites mentioned in Moses’ record (v. 2) “have been lost in the sands of time” (Bruckner, 2008, 129). No one knows the precise place of the crossing. Conservative scholarship strongly argues that Israel crossed the Gulf of Suez (Vos, 2003, 104ff), and not the Gulf of Aqaba, as Wyatt contended.
Second, Wyatt claimed that he was using simple recreational scuba equipment when he discovered these wheels, etc., at a depth of some 200 feet in the Gulf. However, ordinary scuba apparatus is designed to accommodate only a depth of approximately 125-130 feet. Beyond this more sophisticated equipment is required.
Third, Pharaoh’s army was said to have been destroyed “in the middle of the sea” (Exodus 14:23) which, according to measurements of the British Admiralty, is almost 2,800 feet deep in the midst of Aqaba. This hardly harmonizes with Wyatt’s 200 feet “discoveries”!
Then there is the issue of the “bones” — of both horses and men — that Wyatt reputedly found. Recall that the destruction of Pharaoh’s army took place about 3,500 years ago. Compare this with the following facts. The Titanic went down in 1912 and 1,553 people were lost in the wreckage. In 1985, 73 years following that Atlantic catastrophe, the submerged vessel was discovered and explored. Specially designed underwater TV and video equipment was employed; in addition, more than 53,000 photos were taken. The remains of not a solitary person — neither skin nor bone — was found. Everything had been completely consumed by fish, crustaceans, and the destructive effect of salt water (HRR, 179ff).
After their extensive investigations, the Standish brothers declared that no chariot wheels, or remains of human or horse bones found in the Gulf of Aqaba, were ever submitted to scientific authorities for examination and testing (HRR, 283-284). In spite of this fact, the Wyatt Museum web site states: “Ron actually retrieved a hub of a wheel which had the remains of 8 spokes radiating outward from it.”
In fact, he claimed to have found wheels with 4, 6, and 8 spokes! One authority suggests that the video tape Wyatt employed to show these underwater “artifacts” appears to be a hoax; he challenged him to subject the items to a C14 dating test — if indeed he ever had an actual sample of anything (Zias, op. cit.).
“Mr. Ron Wyatt is neither an archaeologist nor has he ever carried out a legally licensed excavation in Israel or Jerusalem. In order to excavate one must have at least a BA in archaeology which he does not possess despite his claims to the contrary. We are aware of his claims which border on the absurd as they have no scientific basis whatsoever nor have they ever been published in a professional journal. They fall into the category of trash which one finds in tabloids such as the National Enquirer, Sun, etc. It’s amazing that anyone would believe them…” (http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/Zias.html).
Wyatt’s religious affiliation was with the Seventh-day Adventist sect. Ironically, the most thorough exposé of the gentleman’s claims was produced by two scholars of his own denomination, Russell R. and Colin D. Standish.
The Standish brothers were identical twins who were from New South Wales, Australia. Russell (who died in 2008) was a physician, hospital administrator, and a medical missionary; Colin is the founder and president of Hartland College in Virginia. Both were ordained as ministers in the conservative branch of SDA church. They have been prolific writers, co-authoring numerous books, among which is Holy Relics or Revelation – Recent Astounding Archaeological Claims Evaluated (hereafter designated as HRR).
______________________________________________________
In this brief review of the Standish brothers’ book, we offer two devastating examples of the hoaxes perpetrated by Ron Wyatt. Actually, the ninety-plus examples, touted by Wyatt and his followers, is a “house of cards” that falls under the weight of its own absurdity! Consider the following two most sensational examples.
Bones and Chariot Wheels
Wyatt claimed to have discovered the exact place where the Israelites crossed the Red Sea on dry ground, before the waters returned and drowned Pharaoh’s forces. He contended that he explored the floor of the Gulf of Aqaba, using scuba gear. Supposedly, he discovered “chariot litter” in the form of wheels, body frames, and the bones of both humans and horses, scattered over a lengthy area.
Several things may be said of this claim (HRR, 184ff). First, the site of the exodus route, as described in Exodus 14:1ff, is highly disputed. The three specific sites mentioned in Moses’ record (v. 2) “have been lost in the sands of time” (Bruckner, 2008, 129). No one knows the precise place of the crossing. Conservative scholarship strongly argues that Israel crossed the Gulf of Suez (Vos, 2003, 104ff), and not the Gulf of Aqaba, as Wyatt contended.
Second, Wyatt claimed that he was using simple recreational scuba equipment when he discovered these wheels, etc., at a depth of some 200 feet in the Gulf. However, ordinary scuba apparatus is designed to accommodate only a depth of approximately 125-130 feet. Beyond this more sophisticated equipment is required.
Third, Pharaoh’s army was said to have been destroyed “in the middle of the sea” (Exodus 14:23) which, according to measurements of the British Admiralty, is almost 2,800 feet deep in the midst of Aqaba. This hardly harmonizes with Wyatt’s 200 feet “discoveries”!
Then there is the issue of the “bones” — of both horses and men — that Wyatt reputedly found. Recall that the destruction of Pharaoh’s army took place about 3,500 years ago. Compare this with the following facts. The Titanic went down in 1912 and 1,553 people were lost in the wreckage. In 1985, 73 years following that Atlantic catastrophe, the submerged vessel was discovered and explored. Specially designed underwater TV and video equipment was employed; in addition, more than 53,000 photos were taken. The remains of not a solitary person — neither skin nor bone — was found. Everything had been completely consumed by fish, crustaceans, and the destructive effect of salt water (HRR, 179ff).
After their extensive investigations, the Standish brothers declared that no chariot wheels, or remains of human or horse bones found in the Gulf of Aqaba, were ever submitted to scientific authorities for examination and testing (HRR, 283-284). In spite of this fact, the Wyatt Museum web site states: “Ron actually retrieved a hub of a wheel which had the remains of 8 spokes radiating outward from it.”
In fact, he claimed to have found wheels with 4, 6, and 8 spokes! One authority suggests that the video tape Wyatt employed to show these underwater “artifacts” appears to be a hoax; he challenged him to subject the items to a C14 dating test — if indeed he ever had an actual sample of anything (Zias, op. cit.).
Wyatt, his relatives and his associates' lies and misrepresentation have cost people a lot of money. And they are still doing it and people still buy into their fraudulent claims. As this thread sadly shows.
I did not post that.
I am done here. Waste of my time.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Did Wyatt have anything to do with the video clip?
Bells
Staff member
The video you linked was produced by someone called Michael Rood.
The full video can be purchased on the WND site..
Here is a video of Michael Rood discussing Ron Wyatt's discovery...
Michael Rood tells about the real Red Sea crossing site and Ron Wyatt who found it. Ron Wyatt followed the Bible literally and the Lord partnered with him in finding biblical sites. Rood went to Ron's home and asked questions, then went out in the field to see the discoveries himself.
So what do you think Ron Wyatt had to do with the video clip?
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
OK, that was another member, sorry.
Bells
Staff member
One of the most disturbing things about these issues is that people go out and spend money to support those like Ron Wyatt and other 'treasure hunters' and then you have those who try and encourage people to spend money to support these people, such as what we see in the OP of this very thread, where Seti encourages people to buy tickets because it might be a sellout.I agree with you.
Thanks for spending the time to explain the situation
The people who go out and pull these kinds of stunts have no expertise or qualifications, often destroy and damage archaeological sites or the environment (such as Ron Wyatt lifting giant pieces of coral out of the water to prove it was a wheel - he never did, but think of the ecological damage he caused by doing so). And then when Governments and Governing bodies fence off these areas to preserve rock art, archaeological sites and even the ecology of the area, these people cry foul and claim it is a conspiracy.
Ron Wyatt has claimed to have found everything, from Noah's Ark to the blood splatter from Christ's crucifixion. All unproven. More concerning is that he often films or photographs himself and his sons digging for these things, with no idea or clue what they are doing, and all illegally. Israel, for example, have strict laws for archaeological digs. The same applies for other Middle Eastern countries. You cannot do it without having a permit and you cannot obtain a permit without having a degree in the respective fields. The reason for that is simple. Israel and the Middle East area is littered with archaeological wonders, with caves that housed early hominids in the first waves from Africa through to Roman archaeology. Can you imagine the damage people like Wyatt and his cohorts do when they go there and just start digging anywhere and everywhere?
And people give them money because they convince then to fund them to prove the bible. They aren't proving anything. They have nothing to show for any of it. They refuse to have anything dated or tested. All they have are their claims and what they say they discovered. They are, in effect, fraudulent.
Who supposed that?
exchemist
Valued Senior Member
Wasn't this the nitwit who found bits of old steam locomotives in the sea (from the 1st World War, probably - Lawrence of Arabia, the Hejaz railway etc) and thought they were Pharoah's chariot wheels?
