Mind Over Matter
Registered Senior Member
Right, but there are threats to freedom such as oppression, injustice, prejudice, ignorance, etc.
Stuck (primarily for theists)
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Mind Over Matter
Registered Senior Member
I think so.
That's not what I said. Assuming one never needs to change ones mind is to remain insane, IMO. Everyone is ignorant to some degree and needs change-sometimes called metanoia in Christian parlance-or else there'd be no need for our faith, let alone the Atonement. The difference is in who we listen to, where the truth we all need is to be found.
because it doesn't make sense; it's illogical. there's god, and there's people, and there's your perspective or perception.
how is someone else's perception of god any better than your own? and how is your perception of other people any better than your perception of god would be?
Mind Over Matter
Registered Senior Member
Once we realize the importannce of freedom in our lives, it is easy to see why any threat to our freedom is an attack on humandignity. Just as with our discussion of freedom, I will divide the threats to freedom into inner and external types.
External threats to Freedom
external threats to freedom are forces in society which directly endanger our quest for inner freedom. This includes such things as oppression, injustice and prejudice.
Events such as the Revolution, people such as Jose Rizal and Martin Luther King, movemenst such as community development and women's liberation, are examples of the constant need to struggle against the forces of oppression in any form.
Certainly, Christians must be in the forfront with those workingfor a free society. The Fathers of the second Vatican Council state:
Whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment...disgraceful working conditions, where men are treated as mere tools for profit....all these things and other of their like are infamies indeed....Moreover, they are a supreme dishonor to the Creator(Constitution of the Church in the Modern World, No. 27).
The bishops go on to point that Jesus does not simply call us to heaven as individuals, but he also calls us as a people to the kingdom of God. We are nound by the love of Christ to work toward the perfection of society in preperation for the kingdom. Put in other terms, a Christian never goes to heaven alone. Our call from God comes in through the society in which we live. We are committed to work toward the perfection of society so that all people may find the means to become all they can possibly be. This may often involve reaching out and helping those whose freedom is being abused.
Internal Threats to Freedom
Internal threats to freedom are, as the term implies, the threats to freedom which come from within ourselves. The internal threats to freedom which we will discuss are ignorance, passions and habit. Within each of these in an element for which we are not responsible because we do not have total control of all our thoughts, emotions and life experiences. At the same time there is an element for which we are responsible. it is, of course, the responsible aspects of these hindrances to freedom that are the concern of moral theology.
External threats to Freedom
external threats to freedom are forces in society which directly endanger our quest for inner freedom. This includes such things as oppression, injustice and prejudice.
Events such as the Revolution, people such as Jose Rizal and Martin Luther King, movemenst such as community development and women's liberation, are examples of the constant need to struggle against the forces of oppression in any form.
Certainly, Christians must be in the forfront with those workingfor a free society. The Fathers of the second Vatican Council state:
Whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment...disgraceful working conditions, where men are treated as mere tools for profit....all these things and other of their like are infamies indeed....Moreover, they are a supreme dishonor to the Creator(Constitution of the Church in the Modern World, No. 27).
The bishops go on to point that Jesus does not simply call us to heaven as individuals, but he also calls us as a people to the kingdom of God. We are nound by the love of Christ to work toward the perfection of society in preperation for the kingdom. Put in other terms, a Christian never goes to heaven alone. Our call from God comes in through the society in which we live. We are committed to work toward the perfection of society so that all people may find the means to become all they can possibly be. This may often involve reaching out and helping those whose freedom is being abused.
Internal Threats to Freedom
Internal threats to freedom are, as the term implies, the threats to freedom which come from within ourselves. The internal threats to freedom which we will discuss are ignorance, passions and habit. Within each of these in an element for which we are not responsible because we do not have total control of all our thoughts, emotions and life experiences. At the same time there is an element for which we are responsible. it is, of course, the responsible aspects of these hindrances to freedom that are the concern of moral theology.
A person is always free to explore their understanding of the universe in a way that makes sense to them. In fact, that is the only way it can be done.
:shrug:
Mind Over Matter
Registered Senior Member
Ignorance
Ignorance is a threat ti freedom becuase in ignorance we can hurt ourselves as well as others. Consider, for example, that you have a close friend who is very sensitives about a particular aspect of his or her personality. You, however, find this trait of your friend to be amusing and never miss an opportunity to mention it. Months later your friend tells you about his or her feelings on this matter. You then suddenly realize that in ignorance you have been hurting your relationship with your friend. The same holds true with your relationship with God. We must always make an honest effort to properly inform our conscience. It is morally wrong to deliberately remain in ignorance about what is morally wrong.
Another aspect of ignorance as a hindrance to freedom is seen in light of the mysterious nature of our own minds. So many of our deepest needs have their roots in the depths of the subconscious where we do not have access to them. This means that we may be doing a certain thing when we suddenly become aware that our deepest motives may be unworthy ones. Perhaps jealousy, revenge, or even hatred is motivating us to do what we are doing under the cover of friendship or perhaps our obligation to correct another. In conclusion, we are not responsible for that of which we are ignorant. But we are responsible not to remain ignorant to the extent we are able to do so. We must constantly work toward an ever greater understanding of ourselves and of our relationship to God.
Passions
The passions or the emotions or the emotions are those iner forces that affect us both spiritually and physically in moving us to act in certain way. These passions, such as joy, love, fear and sorrow, are in themselves good, and they learn from an important dimension in our lives. But it id important to see that while under their influence we are restricted in out freedom. This restricting power on our freedomiis where the passions are potential sources of immorality.
Some actions have no morl significance and so giving way to our emotions in such circumstances is also without moral significance. For example, the wild enthusiam at a basketball game is neither moral nor immoral in itself.
Some actions are directly immoral and so the giving way to the emotions that move us to do such things increases our involvement in the action. What is more, the emotions such as fear, hate sorrow, can do more than move us to intensify our involvement in destructive acts to ourselves and others. The emotions can become overpowering and, under their influence, we temporarily lose our use of free will and so become dehumanized.
While under the full impact of these emotions we are not responsible for our actions to the extent they have taken over. We are responsible, however, not to let ourselves become so dominated by these emotions. For example, one who has a violent temper is not fully responsible for his actions while he or she is acting in a rage. This person is, however, to see it that he or she checks these emotions before they get our of hand. We can see here how the threats to freedom can act upon one another in terms of moral responsibility. For example, a person who continually loses his temper has an obligation to do his best not to become dominated by his distractive feelings. He must also try to overcome his ignorance concerning why he is so prone to behave the way that he does.
Once again, it should be made clear that the passions are themselves good. They become evil only when directed toward an evil action that dehumanizes us. The passions involved in sexual love in marriage, for example, are directed toward a good end; namely, the deepening of love and the procreation of children. The same thing can be said about the strong emotions of joy that are often experienced at celebrations or at the meeting of close friends who have been separated for a long period of time. A stoic rejection of the passions is not the goal of Christian morality.
Habits
If you have ever watched a baby trying to learn how to use a spoon for the first time, you were probably struck by the humorous sight of someone trying to find his or her own mouth! If you try to think of how it is you are able to find yours, you come to some understanding of the importance of habits. Habits are a form of second nature to us. Habits are things we do spontaneously, effortlessly, without thinking. It is easy to see why habits are invaluable in our lives. Imagine how it would be if every time you sat down to eat you had to begin all over again to learn how to find your own mouth in order to feed yourself!
Habits are very significant in our moral life as well. As with the passions, when involving actions such as driving a car, that is, actions which are neither moral nor immoral, we can say that habits themselves are neither moral nor immoral. When the habit is a good habit we say that it is a virtue. This means that we can develop the virtue of going out of our way to help others, for example. A virtuous person is one who spontaneously does what is good because he or she has developed good habits. Here good living example becomes a way of life.
Habits that are directed toward immoral actions are called vices. Bad habits form us to do spontaneously that which in the beginning called for a deliberate act of the will. For example, the first time a person steals something, he or she may feel a great degree of guilt in the awareness they have done something wrong. But after repeatedly stealing, the act becomes effortless. In stealing long enough the person takes on the identity of a liar.
To determine the degree of responsibility in actions involving habits, we can use the same principle we applied to the passions. In other words, to the extent a person has been taken over by a particular habit, that person has a decreased amount of responsibility for what he or she is doing. By the same token, the individual is bound to avoid becoming entrenched in bad habits, and is obligated to try to replace them with good habits.
Ignorance is a threat ti freedom becuase in ignorance we can hurt ourselves as well as others. Consider, for example, that you have a close friend who is very sensitives about a particular aspect of his or her personality. You, however, find this trait of your friend to be amusing and never miss an opportunity to mention it. Months later your friend tells you about his or her feelings on this matter. You then suddenly realize that in ignorance you have been hurting your relationship with your friend. The same holds true with your relationship with God. We must always make an honest effort to properly inform our conscience. It is morally wrong to deliberately remain in ignorance about what is morally wrong.
Another aspect of ignorance as a hindrance to freedom is seen in light of the mysterious nature of our own minds. So many of our deepest needs have their roots in the depths of the subconscious where we do not have access to them. This means that we may be doing a certain thing when we suddenly become aware that our deepest motives may be unworthy ones. Perhaps jealousy, revenge, or even hatred is motivating us to do what we are doing under the cover of friendship or perhaps our obligation to correct another. In conclusion, we are not responsible for that of which we are ignorant. But we are responsible not to remain ignorant to the extent we are able to do so. We must constantly work toward an ever greater understanding of ourselves and of our relationship to God.
Passions
The passions or the emotions or the emotions are those iner forces that affect us both spiritually and physically in moving us to act in certain way. These passions, such as joy, love, fear and sorrow, are in themselves good, and they learn from an important dimension in our lives. But it id important to see that while under their influence we are restricted in out freedom. This restricting power on our freedomiis where the passions are potential sources of immorality.
Some actions have no morl significance and so giving way to our emotions in such circumstances is also without moral significance. For example, the wild enthusiam at a basketball game is neither moral nor immoral in itself.
Some actions are directly immoral and so the giving way to the emotions that move us to do such things increases our involvement in the action. What is more, the emotions such as fear, hate sorrow, can do more than move us to intensify our involvement in destructive acts to ourselves and others. The emotions can become overpowering and, under their influence, we temporarily lose our use of free will and so become dehumanized.
While under the full impact of these emotions we are not responsible for our actions to the extent they have taken over. We are responsible, however, not to let ourselves become so dominated by these emotions. For example, one who has a violent temper is not fully responsible for his actions while he or she is acting in a rage. This person is, however, to see it that he or she checks these emotions before they get our of hand. We can see here how the threats to freedom can act upon one another in terms of moral responsibility. For example, a person who continually loses his temper has an obligation to do his best not to become dominated by his distractive feelings. He must also try to overcome his ignorance concerning why he is so prone to behave the way that he does.
Once again, it should be made clear that the passions are themselves good. They become evil only when directed toward an evil action that dehumanizes us. The passions involved in sexual love in marriage, for example, are directed toward a good end; namely, the deepening of love and the procreation of children. The same thing can be said about the strong emotions of joy that are often experienced at celebrations or at the meeting of close friends who have been separated for a long period of time. A stoic rejection of the passions is not the goal of Christian morality.
Habits
If you have ever watched a baby trying to learn how to use a spoon for the first time, you were probably struck by the humorous sight of someone trying to find his or her own mouth! If you try to think of how it is you are able to find yours, you come to some understanding of the importance of habits. Habits are a form of second nature to us. Habits are things we do spontaneously, effortlessly, without thinking. It is easy to see why habits are invaluable in our lives. Imagine how it would be if every time you sat down to eat you had to begin all over again to learn how to find your own mouth in order to feed yourself!
Habits are very significant in our moral life as well. As with the passions, when involving actions such as driving a car, that is, actions which are neither moral nor immoral, we can say that habits themselves are neither moral nor immoral. When the habit is a good habit we say that it is a virtue. This means that we can develop the virtue of going out of our way to help others, for example. A virtuous person is one who spontaneously does what is good because he or she has developed good habits. Here good living example becomes a way of life.
Habits that are directed toward immoral actions are called vices. Bad habits form us to do spontaneously that which in the beginning called for a deliberate act of the will. For example, the first time a person steals something, he or she may feel a great degree of guilt in the awareness they have done something wrong. But after repeatedly stealing, the act becomes effortless. In stealing long enough the person takes on the identity of a liar.
To determine the degree of responsibility in actions involving habits, we can use the same principle we applied to the passions. In other words, to the extent a person has been taken over by a particular habit, that person has a decreased amount of responsibility for what he or she is doing. By the same token, the individual is bound to avoid becoming entrenched in bad habits, and is obligated to try to replace them with good habits.
OP:
IOW you're a perfect example of Signal's original point.
Listen to me, because my view is that I'm right.
MoM how and why do you think your posts are answering the question? All you're doing is espousing someone's view (either your own or the church's) of how things are.
IOW you're a perfect example of Signal's original point.
Listen to me, because my view is that I'm right.
The issue is - How can one know one isn't merely imagining things? How can one know that what one thinks is an experience of God, also truly is an experience of God, and not merely imagination, hallucination?
Normally, people turn to other people for confirmation/disconfirmation of their experiences and beliefs.
OP:
MoM how and why do you think your posts are answering the question? All you're doing is espousing someone's view (either your own or the church's) of how things are.
IOW you're a perfect example of Signal's original point.
Listen to me, because my view is that I'm right.
Exactly!
But the problem is that an ignorant person per definition does not know where to look.
So why instruct them to go "to the right source", when they don't know what that is?
An ignorant person does not know whether the RCC is the right source or not.
So telling them to go to the RCC is useless.
again, how is someone else's perspective or perception any better or more trustworthy than your own. honey i hate to break it to you, but your perception, of god, yourself, and everything around you IS ALL YOU'VE GOT. you may as well go with it.
How do you know you have this freedom?
How do you know, what reason do you have to believe that acting on this freedom will not have adverse effects on you?
But then so many people will be against me!!!! How am I supposed to defend myself against them?
Not to mention that I will be concerned for my own sanity.
What are you doing right here and now if not trying to understand things on your own terms?
How do you know life won't have adverse effects on you? There are no guarantees.
Yazata
Valued Senior Member
I don't like looking at things that way.
Epistemology, even religious epistemology, doesn't simply reduce to power. Obviously interpersonal issues are going to intrude upon any sort of person-to-person discourse. But questions of 'who's on top' can't be allowed to obscure or replace the 'fact of the matter' issue. Ostensibly at least, that's what people are actually talking about.
I'm not a theist, nor am I "seeking God". But just in general, whenever I inquire about anything among other people, I consider myself an 'intellectual free-agent'. I always make my own decisions (I know of no way to avoid doing that). So intellectually, I treat other people as 'resource persons'. I decide whether or not particular individuals seem to know anythng that might be valuable to me. If I think that they can be helpful, I devote some time and effort reading/listening to what they say and then thinking carefully about it afterwards.
But I never give anyone a blank check. (I wouldn't give a blank check to Jesus Christ if he ever returns.)
I guess that I developed that approach in response to university professors. They may claim all kinds of intellectual authority and in many cases they deserve it. But whatever their intellectual authority, they are still just 'resource people' to me, people who can provide me with information that may or may not prove to be true, helpful or relevant. I still need to decide for myself what I think about what they say.
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grow a set.
signal,
you've been "stuck" for so long now. you know how they say that you can't keep doing things the same way and expect a different result? it makes sense.
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can one think of anything that one doesn't learn from people?
from recognizing the different political machinations pertinent to general categories of person : kannistha, madhyama and uttama.
I've been telling you that since day 1 when you first hinted at it.
Instead you insist you are not qualified to make such distinctions and have no option but to blindly follow whoever and whatever - which of course, is a plan for failure.
My perspective on things had better be prefaced by what it stems from:
One, I'm a solitary, eclectic witch with strong Buddhist leanings. Not really an uncommon thing under the Pagan umbrella.
Two, I used to be an anarcho-syndicalist.
Therefore...I find the idea of assuming that anyone else's understanding of deity is superior to one's own is a false idea...considering the nature of the apprehension of Spirit-something that CANNOT be expressed adequately in words-why on earth would you accept the authority of another in this matter? Seek the Source, and when, after spending some years looking, you find it,then you know.
...I think that it is far more important to quest internally for a personal, intimate connection with Spirit than it is to take the seductive path of accepting, whole-cloth, the answers of others...because the fact of the matter is (and drawing on the tao te ching here) the description is always going to fall far short of the reality.
...I believe that it is the act of questing for the personal connection that makes us better human beings; whether or not we seek what we find in some degree...and even if we do, there can always be better connection, more improvements to be made...if you're in a body you are not perfected. We're all mad around here, Alice.
...I embraced Paganism because of a moment of ecstacy I had. I cannot explain it. I can only tell you that I was impressed upon with the tremendous sacredness of Life.
...Buddhism I take on because it is wise, kind, and useful.
But don't take my word for it. Or anybody's. To paraphrase a Zen buddhist saying, all the holy books are just fingers pointing at the moon. Go see the moon, then you don't need the guy standing there with his finger pointing at it.
Go find your own damn truth.
One, I'm a solitary, eclectic witch with strong Buddhist leanings. Not really an uncommon thing under the Pagan umbrella.
Two, I used to be an anarcho-syndicalist.
Therefore...I find the idea of assuming that anyone else's understanding of deity is superior to one's own is a false idea...considering the nature of the apprehension of Spirit-something that CANNOT be expressed adequately in words-why on earth would you accept the authority of another in this matter? Seek the Source, and when, after spending some years looking, you find it,then you know.
...I think that it is far more important to quest internally for a personal, intimate connection with Spirit than it is to take the seductive path of accepting, whole-cloth, the answers of others...because the fact of the matter is (and drawing on the tao te ching here) the description is always going to fall far short of the reality.
...I believe that it is the act of questing for the personal connection that makes us better human beings; whether or not we seek what we find in some degree...and even if we do, there can always be better connection, more improvements to be made...if you're in a body you are not perfected. We're all mad around here, Alice.
...I embraced Paganism because of a moment of ecstacy I had. I cannot explain it. I can only tell you that I was impressed upon with the tremendous sacredness of Life.
...Buddhism I take on because it is wise, kind, and useful.
But don't take my word for it. Or anybody's. To paraphrase a Zen buddhist saying, all the holy books are just fingers pointing at the moon. Go see the moon, then you don't need the guy standing there with his finger pointing at it.
Go find your own damn truth.
:bravo: