Street Harrassment.!!!

[tali89]

It obviously doesn't take hours. This woman got over 100 comments in 10 hours. 100 comments in 10 hours is one every 6 minutes, on average.

A woman who designed an experiment aimed at attracting the attention of others supposedly received said attention? Shocking. I didn't know you considered a single sketchy case study a reliable form of evidence.

You don't seem to get it either. "Innocent look or comment". Right. Saying "Well, hello there!" might be innocent if the guy doing it said it to passing men as well as to women, that's not what happens.

So you think the comment "Well, hello there!" is so devastating to a woman that it merits some sort of serious action. Is your opinion of women so low that you feel the patriarchal need to protect them from even the slightest form of imagined discomfort.

And I can't really comprehend how purposefully walking silently alongside a complete stranger for five minutes can be construed as "innocent".

So now men shouldn't travel in the same direction as women? This is getting ridiculous.

 

[Bells]

A woman who designed an experiment aimed at attracting the attention of others supposedly received said attention? Shocking. I didn't know you considered a single sketchy case study a reliable form of evidence.

What was she doing to attract the attention?

Can you please pin point this exactly? The camera was hidden, so it isn't that.

But people keep saying she was attracting attention and I would like you to explain exactly what she was doing to attract said attention.

So you think the comment "Well, hello there!" is so devastating to a woman that it merits some sort of serious action. Is your opinion of women so low that you feel the patriarchal need to protect them from even the slightest form of imagined discomfort.

Once again, you leave out context. Which is very important.

But this is the level of dishonesty we come to expect from you.

So now men shouldn't travel in the same direction as women? This is getting ridiculous.

Is that what he said? See, there is that dishonesty of yours again.

So you define 'harassment' based on the say-so of the supposed victim, instead of via legal definition or social consensus? You are aware of the implications of this, I'm sure. A sword of Damocles would be hanging over the head of every male (since males can't be harassed according to James R). While Hugh Jackman could gyrate against strange women in the street and be met with affection and an exchange of phone numbers, the average worker bee man would need to avert their eyes from women in public out of fear of being accused of harassment. Indeed, you'd have men actively going out of their way to avoid contact with women. They would cease to look or talk to them. They would refuse to work with them. Male doctors would refuse to treat female patients, male teachers would refuse to talk to female parents, male plumbers would not be able to fix a burst water pipe for a female client. Dates would no longer occur as they do now, with the man (usually) initiating the courting process. Indeed, I suspect courtship and relationships would come to an end. Such paranoia would be justified if your sexist and paternalistic views were enforced.

Well who files the complaint? The victim. And why would the victim file such a complaint? Could it be because they felt harassed? Gee, what a thought!

Are you suggesting that men are unable to not harass women and that this is some sort of mating or dating ritual?

Would you date a stranger who invaded your personal space, acted in a threatening manner towards you by deliberately following you and kept asking you to ride his penis as you walked down the street?

How dare anyone suggest that men not harass women as they go about their daily lives! The horror!

Has it occurred to anyone that if women were to wear abayas, or at least dress very modestly, that would cut down on a lot of harassment. Think about, things like push up bras and lowcut blouses, or tight black clothes like in the OP video, are they necessary? I'm not saying women's fashion ought to be regulated, but a lot of what they wear is deliberately provocative.

How is what she was wearing not modest? She was wearing dark jeans and a black t-shirt.. Nothing was hanging out. It was hardly tight.

Why don't you ask the women in Egypt and other countries where they are forced to cover up? It is so bad there that the Government has had to outlaw street harassment. Or Saudi Arabia, a country where women are forced to cover up from head to toe... It's just as bad there.

There was a similar video made, a while ago now, showing the level of harassment that women in Egypt face while going about their daily lives.

Little girls, children walking home from school, also suffer similar harassment. Most will have experienced this before they are even teenagers. Are you going to suggest that little girls not dress in a provocative manner? Or is the school uniform they are forced to wear too much for some men? What about women and girls who are disabled?

‘The first time I went out in my wheelchair my mum and I were so shocked when an aggressive man leaned over me, shook my wheelchair and quickly thrust his groin in my face as he squeezed past. There was about three feet of space in front of us he could have easily used without pressing up against me or moving my chair at all. I was 16. The second and third time a man did "the groin thing" it still bothered me…I felt dirty. I felt ashamed. I even blamed myself.’​

It never ceases to astound me just how so many people blame women for being harassed by strangers while walking down the street.

It has nothing to do with what she is wearing.

 

[tali89]

Would you date a stranger who invaded your personal space, acted in a threatening manner towards you by deliberately following you and kept asking you to ride his penis as you walked down the street?

I didn't see that in the video. Supposedly this woman walked around the street for 10 hours, and then showcased 2 minutes of the most egregious catcalling, which included one man saying "God Bless you", and another referring to himself as 'ugly'. Oh the horror! Call the National Guard, we have a crisis on our hands here!

 

[Bells]

I didn't see that in the video. Supposedly this woman walked around the street for 10 hours, and then showcased 2 minutes of the most egregious catcalling, which included one man saying "God Bless you", and another referring to himself as 'ugly'. Oh the horror! Call the National Guard, we have a crisis on our hands here!

What I noted is a common occurrence with street harassment.

Now, can you please explain exactly how she drew attention to herself?

A woman who designed an experiment aimed at attracting the attention of others supposedly received said attention?

What exactly was she doing to attract the attention of others to herself?

How was the experiment designed to attract attention to herself?

 

[GeoffP]

I didn't see that in the video. Supposedly this woman walked around the street for 10 hours, and then showcased 2 minutes of the most egregious catcalling, which included one man saying "God Bless you", and another referring to himself as 'ugly'. Oh the horror! Call the National Guard, we have a crisis on our hands here!

The clammy creepiness of the men is tangible - individual comments are, in some respect, unexceptional since each man making the comment observes the subject once each. Still, the sheer frequency of the comments suggests that this is common for women in NY; assuming the makers of the film are honest in their reporting, this implies an impressive frequency per capita for women, or at least in NYC.

And there is a crisis here. Rape, sexual belittling, glass ceilings, general misogyny. This is part thereof: the visualisation of women as sex objects without respect of either individuality or basic rights to dignity. Or more simply: sure, if a woman is wearing revealing clothes, people probably will sneak a peek. That's human nature, although not precisely honourable. What is much more egregious is the constant hitting-on by passersby. Take your position: oh no, she got chatted at as she walked around in tight clothes. All right: multiply that across distance traveled. A leering comment - and "smile, baby" is a pretty sleazy way to introduce yourself - every six minutes. So what's the average commute time of a New Yorker? 48 minutes, apparently. (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/new-yorkers-havelongest-commute-times-article-1.1426047) So that's eight comments on average per morning, eight at night. No idea how many that is on a per mile basis, but should we just expect that women should run this gauntlet every day? Nearly twenty droolers per diem.

And "smile baby" is not the way you introduce yourself or talk to a woman as she hurries by. If you're taking that shot at her as she walks by, that's kind of sleazy. You chat up a woman, essentially, in a stationary social locale, or really anywhere she isn't rushing by to go somewhere. Maybe our disdain is coloured by the desperation of it all, whatever. I don't think these guys were throwing up similar comments at the average passer-by; say, a balding black guy in golf pants and a wifebeater. So it isn't about 'being friendly'. It's about desperate attempts to 'score'. And it's disrespectful. I don't behave like this. Do you? It's unacceptable.

Admittedly, NYC is probably one of the worse places for this. In fact, I'd warrant there are few places outside major metropolises where such behaviour goes on on a wide scale. But that's still pretty damning. And it's motivated by the same factors that motivate misogyny generally. It's too much. This society needs an overhaul in a variety of areas, and this is utterly one such. Addressing male behaviour would be the shortest cut to relaxing the creeping misogyny that this society presently tacitly permits. IMHO.

 

[Motor Daddy]

If it's harassment then the woman should have filed formal charges, no? I mean, she has video evidence of the "harassment." I wonder if she will be filing a formal complaint at the Police Station? It will be a good opportunity for everyone to assess the Police Officer's handling of the situation!!

Edit: Maybe Obama can call a special news briefing to fill us in on the status of this mess.

 

[sculptor]

Just a curiosity:
Did the actress in the video clip get paid for this gig.
Or, do we have an emerging union problem here?
....................................................

Reminiscing about the army(stratcom) days long ago and far away.
Some of those WACs could fill out a set of fatigues in a way that delighted my eyes. (We were all a lot younger then)
One WAC was completely excalibur via the armies IQ tests. She scored the max right across the board.
She was one of the crypto kids when the computations were done without computers. The crypto kids worked inside a vault inside a secure building inside a secure site under a mountain.
Her brain ruled my mind and heart, and, while following her in a set of fatigues, she ruled my body.

Nice memories.....................

...............
another question:
Are sanity and political correctness always mutually exclusive?

 

[cosmictraveler]

Once I paid for two nice looking womens dinner at a French Restaurant downtown and told the waiter not to tell them who picked up their tab because I just enjoyed watching them while I ate alone. No , not gawking but glancing over every now and then just for admirations sake. No I did not follow them out of the place, I left before they did so as not to even be there for them to think it was me. It is nice, to me, to but a drink, dinner or other thing that I might be around for a lovely lady for to see them smile pays me back more than any money can.

 

[milkweed]

The clammy creepiness of the men is tangible - individual comments are, in some respect, unexceptional since each man making the comment observes the subject once each. Still, the sheer frequency of the comments suggests that this is common for women in NY; assuming the makers of the film are honest in their reporting, this implies an impressive frequency per capita for women, or at least in NYC.

Go back and do a count. The video makers claim over 100 instances of 'street harassment'. My rough count is approx 20 people making approx 35 comments. Thats one person commenting every 30 mins or one comment every 17 mins. So it appears the makers of the video are not exactly honest. I mean, why cut it unless its really not convincing. One guy saying "Nice" is walking the opposite direction apparently on a cell phone. I am not sure he's even commenting about her.

And we have no idea how many people she walked past. Is a thousand an hour an unreasonable guess? 100 an hour seems awful low. 500 an hour is less than one in 150.

Maybe you enjoyed walking in boy/girl lines and remaining silent in the halls of grade school... Just saying...

 

[GeoffP]

Go back and do a count. The video makers claim over 100 instances of 'street harassment'. My rough count is approx 20 people making approx 35 comments. Thats one person commenting every 30 mins or one comment every 17 mins. So it appears the makers of the video are not exactly honest. I mean, why cut it unless its really not convincing. One guy saying "Nice" is walking the opposite direction apparently on a cell phone. I am not sure he's even commenting about her.

They don't say they included all the comments. We're back here to the question of veracity, I guess. Do we have reason to conclude that the presenters are lying?

And we have no idea how many people she walked past. Is a thousand an hour an unreasonable guess? 100 an hour seems awful low. 500 an hour is less than one in 150.

This is a good point about proportionality. Tough to gauge from the video. Assuming your 500 in an hour, that would be 5000 people passed in the total of 10 hours, so roughly 1 in 50 making a comment. But only half - males - make such comments, so that gives 1 in 25 of all people likely to make such comments, and of that I think you could shave off 20% as either not seeing her, being too old, too young, homosexual (2-4% of the population I believe), or otherwise unable to comment. So probably 1 in 20 commented, or 5% of the available possible commenters. And the filmers also cite 'innumerable' winks and whistles. Could that be as much as half of those observing her? Even at 5%, that's a serious problem in my book: 5% of all males making lewd comments at the girl. That's a freaking nightmare, even without considering the absolute effect: 100 comments, if the filmers are taken at their word. In the statistical world, we'd call that 1.0 shitloads (sL) of harassment.

Maybe you enjoyed walking in boy/girl lines and remaining silent in the halls of grade school... Just saying...

How did you guess? Our hopscotch lines were also rigidly enforced, if you want to know.

 

[Liebling]

This is super creepy. I did note a few things. She was walking in a lower income part of town as evidenced by the general dingyness, all the scraped up posters, graffiti and the general slovenly look of the people around her as she walked.

I actually look strikingly similar to the girl in the video (those of you who've seen my picture in the past know that I have long brown curly hair and a fairly shapely figure) and I work with a lot of women in downtown Chicago who are even more beautiful than the girl in the video and also some who dress more provocatively than she did in the video and I can tell you that when we walk solo or as a group out to lunch, sometimes a mile or more depending on what kind of food we are looking for, we almost never get those kinds of comments or propositions. I had a speaking engagement three miles away that I walked to the other day and I was dressed very well and was alone the whole time and only heard one.

Maybe it's the area she is in, and maybe it is the kind of people she's around but I definitely think it's more of a nurture thing because we don't generally get that around here. Even my sister who works at a blue collar plant in a very bad area of town doesn't get that kind of attention in the Chicago area. Maybe it's a New York thing? It's not nature, I've never been treated like that anywhere.

I personally would have stopped walking and gone into one of the stores and asked them to call the police if the guy who followed her for five minutes followed me in. If you are in a downtown area, you have to have street smarts whether you are a guy or a girl.

 

[milkweed]

They don't say they included all the comments. We're back here to the question of veracity, I guess. Do we have reason to conclude that the presenters are lying?

Based on the evidence presented? I mean come on, If they had worse they would have shown it. They didnt because the video was the worst they saw that day.

Assuming your 500 in an hour, that would be 5000 people passed in the total of 10 hours, so roughly 1 in 50 making a comment. But only half - males - make such comments, so that gives 1 in 25 of all people likely to make such comments, and of that I think you could shave off 20% as either not seeing her, being too old, too young, homosexual (2-4% of the population I believe), or otherwise unable to comment. So probably 1 in 20 commented, or 5% of the available possible commenters. And the filmers also cite 'innumerable' winks and whistles. Could that be as much as half of those observing her? Even at 5%, that's a serious problem in my book: 5% of all males making lewd comments at the girl. That's a freaking nightmare, even without considering the absolute effect: 100 comments, if the filmers are taken at their word. In the statistical world, we'd call that 1.0 shitloads (sL) of harassment.

ah, but that is assuming over 100 comments (when they dont show that). There is a motive and its placed at the end when they tell you how to donate money to them. Going back to the evidence presented; attributing one comment per person (which it isnt 7 of the 20 commentators had more than one comment). But to play along 35 comments out of 2500 people is 1.4% of the males (if we attribute one comment per participant). If we do 20 participants out of 2500 people its 0.8% of males encountered that day.

So I guess its a half full/half empty outlook on life. But then, most of the time I appreciated when someone said "looking good babe" in my younger days. And Honestly, I dont think society as a whole would be better of banning such impulses (as some would suggest).

I agree with this commentary (reflecting on the actual examples from the video):
http://nypost.com/2014/08/18/enough-sanctimony-ladies-catcalls-are-flattering/

How did you guess? Our hopscotch lines were also rigidly enforced, if you want to know.

Hopscotch... good one LOL.

 

[James R]

Hmm... I ask where people draw the line, with a convenient list, and I get avoidance:

I really dont think you are interested. I do try to avoid discussing me personally in this thread and am choosing that option now.

I draw the line by dismissing subjectivity in favor of a more universal objectivity.

It looks to me like certain people don't want an honest and open discussion.

 

[James R]

joepistole:

LOL, once you brush aside all of your ad hominem and your illogical argument (e.g. straw man) here is the bottom line, you have no evidence the video clip in question has not been staged.

Yeah, let's all have a big LOL about harassment of women, joe.

You know it wasn't staged.

Why can't you stand up for what you actually think? That this kind of harassment of women on the street is acceptable?

And if, not, tell me where you draw the line (see link in my previous post). Or are you going to avoid answering that, too - just like the others who have been excusing harassment?

You accept what this woman has said without question.

It's right there in the video. Did you watch it? It's not her telling stories. You can see and hear the guys making the comments. You know they aren't actors.

Look: why would anybody bother faking a video like this? I previously advised you to briefly search the internet for what women have to say about street harassment. Clearly you didn't do it.

Are you really going to argue that a video like must be faked in order to get this kind of footage? Do you really think that street harassment of this type doesn't occur? You're not that naive, are you Joe?

Wouldn’t you feel funny if a few days, weeks or months from now, it turns out her video and story were fraudulent?

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that you're right and this video turns out to be 100% faked. All those guys were actors, etc. etc. Would that then prove to you that street harassment of women doesn't occur, Joe?

And liberals wonder why people think they are odd.

Nice "liberals" jibe, Joe. Always good to try to put a political spin on sexism. Well done. Very clever of you.

One more point, I didn't say or even suggest women are not on occassion harassed on the streets. My comments were limited to this instance and this woman. So you are being more tha a little disingenuous. Just because some women have been harassed, it doesn't mean this woman was harassed and it doesn't mean this video is wasn't staged.

How often do you think women are harassed on the streets, Joe? Do you think it's rare?

And more importantly, how much street harassment do you think women should put up with?

Before you go pointing fingers you need to take a few deep breaths and take a long serious look at yourself friend.

You're not my "friend", Joe.

Notice that I'm not the one saying street harassment is ok. You are. So, who should take a serious look at himself?

Maybe I am naïve, but then maybe I’ve been around the block a few times. I have worked the streets a major metropolitan city on the left coast as an EMT back in my youth. I have seen more than you can imagine. I have seen many folks like you, folks who thought they knew it all, get schooled in reality and life on the streets. I suggest you look at yourself again before casting aspersions on others.

So, in all your wide experience on the street, you've never seen any evidence of street harassment of the kind seen in the video?

 

[GeoffP]

Based on the evidence presented? I mean come on, If they had worse they would have shown it. They didnt because the video was the worst they saw that day.

I didn't say worse but 'more'. Could they cram all 100 comments in? Maybe. I suppose one could write them for a second video for verification.

ah, but that is assuming over 100 comments (when they dont show that). There is a motive and its placed at the end when they tell you how to donate money to them.

Well, I suppose there is a potential motive there for exaggeration there. The object of documentation is verification: they could be contacted; I'll see what I can do, if anything. I agree that there is such a thing as a positive compliment - but "hey, baby" and "smile" and "hey beautiful" are a bit much, especially if the incidence being reported here is correct over miles and miles and hours. If one wants to meet a girl, buy her a drink in a pub. If one has to toss it at her as she hurries by to have any chance of getting her attention, maybe save it for another day.

And if one has to walk alongside her for five minutes at a time, pretending you're with her, one should just be, you know, shot. It's harassment. The incidence issue is avoidable but not actionable - since no casual assery can be really punishable; idiot A doesn't know, similarly, that idiot B said the same damn thing to her five minutes back - unless egregious and personal.

 

[sculptor]

I draw the line by dismissing subjectivity in favor of a more universal objectivity.

It looks to me like certain people don't want an honest and open discussion.

Actually, James R, I'm extremely shy. I've been married twice, and both times, the women proposed to me. So too with most of my dating and lovers.

So, I really have no experience in approaching strangers on the street(except for getting directions when lost).

As for "drawing the line" If I had used the film clip in question to make a point in an anthropology or psychology seminar, I'd have been laughed out of the classroom, and shortly thereafter received the F I so richly deserved.
It ain't me dadio, it's my training---I just may be a victim of too much education.
From an anthropology or psychology point of view, the film clip is worth less than garbage. Without the P.C. bandwagon crap, it should be taken as a bit of kinky street theatre.

But, here we are in the midsts of P.C. brown shoe emotional insanity.

 

[James R]

tali89:

A woman who designed an experiment aimed at attracting the attention of others supposedly received said attention? Shocking.

She was walking along in the street. If that is the kind of behaviour that attracts attention, then the video shows exactly what it claims to show: that women can't walk along the street without getting catcalls and other harassment. I don't know about shocking, but it isn't how things should be in an ideal world, is it?

So you think the comment "Well, hello there!" is so devastating to a woman that it merits some sort of serious action.

Do I?

No, I think it merits a very simple action. The man doing it should stop his harassment of women. Simple. Requires no additional effort on his part.

Is your opinion of women so low that you feel the patriarchal need to protect them from even the slightest form of imagined discomfort.

Interesting. I'm partiarchal because I don't think that harassment of women is acceptable? What does that make you, then?

What I think, tali89, is that a women should be free to walk down the street without some strange guy shadowing her every move for five minutes and invading her personal space. You think that is too much to ask?

Partiarchal is you thinking you own women on the street and have some god-given right to catcall them and otherwise harass them because, well, you know, you're a man and they should just buckle under and put up with it.

So now men shouldn't travel in the same direction as women? This is getting ridiculous.

You're just like Joe, above. You know that the guy in the video didn't just happen to be travelling in the same direction, and just happen to walk right beside the woman, and just happen to keep step with her for 5 minutes without saying a single word. He didn't just happen to physically intimidate her. He set out to do that. And you apparently think that's just fine. Tell me I'm wrong.

 

[James R]

sculptor:

So, I really have no experience in approaching strangers on the street(except for getting directions when lost).

So, you're unable to comment on what forms of approaching in the street might be acceptable, apart from saying that everything you saw in the video was acceptable according to you?

As for "drawing the line" If I had used the film clip in question to make a point in an anthropology or psychology seminar, I'd have been laughed out of the classroom, and shortly thereafter received the F I so richly deserved.

The anthropological point was "This is how some men behave in regards to women on the street." It's not complicated. There's no psychology in the video, as far as I can see. It isn't trying to explain why these men set out to harass women. It's just showing that they do.

Actually, to be fair, I don't think that the guy who says "You have a nice day" to the woman as she walks past in the street is intending to harass her, necessarily. But he is making assumptions about what she will find welcome. And I'm fairly sure that he doesn't say that to all the guys he passes, which suggests to me that his motives are not entirely pure. It would probably be better, when he thinks "Wow. There's a good-looking woman that I'd like to f**k" that he keeps it to himself.

It ain't me dadio, it's my training---I just may be a victim of too much education.

On this topic, I think you may be a victim of not enough education.

Without the P.C. bandwagon crap, it should be taken as a bit of kinky street theatre.

So this is all just a non-issue for you, is it? It's just fine that a guy shadows a woman down the street for five minutes in a threatening way? Women should expect that and put up with it. Call it street theatre.

But, here we are in the midsts of P.C. brown shoe emotional insanity.

Just because you feel comfortable with something that happens all the time doesn't mean it's right. Consider.

 

[James R]

If it's harassment then the woman should have filed formal charges, no?

There's a problem: this behaviour is legal.

Do you think women should be able to file formal charges for this kind of thing? Why or why not?

 

[James R]

Challenge

This is addressed to tali89, milkweed, sculptor, joepistole, Motor Daddy and anybody else who thinks women should put up with a certain level of street harassment.

Here are some unsolicited comments directed by a hypoethical male to a woman on the street (like the one in the video). I challenge you to tell me which of these comments you think are acceptable or unacceptable in the given context?

1. "Good morning."
2. "That's a nice dress you're wearing!"
3. "Hey! Lighten up and smile! You'd look nicer if you smiled."
4. "Hey! Give me a wave, babe!"
5. "You look hot, woman!"
6. "Hey, babe. How about it?"
7. "Hey! I want to you to have my babies!"
8. "Hey honey. How's about you and me getting a room and getting it on?"
9. "Show us your tits!"
10. "Hey, bitch. Are you too stuck up to talk to me?"
11. "OOh. I'd like to take you back to my place and show you what a real man can do."
12. "I know lots of frigid c**ts just like you who won't put out. What you need is a good f**k."
13. "Hey you f**ing whore! How many guys have you had this morning?"

Note: I am not asking you about what is legal, or even may be considered acceptable by "society" in some general sense. I am asking you for your personal opinion on which of these comments is appropriate for a man who is a stranger to direct at a woman walking part in the street.

And, I want to know your reasons.