Street Harrassment.!!!

[youreyes]

Who are you to make such an accusation against me?

And a word of caution, tali89. If you continue to launch such personal attacks against me or anyone else on this site, then you will face moderation. As it is, your posting style and your avid use of proxies to post on this site has already raised suspicion. I would strongly suggest you stop posting like a misogynistic tool and drawing even more unwanted attention to yourself.

She is a woman and she treats men and women equally. That is who she is.
And personal attacks are too well known tool by you, so why complain about it?

 

[Bells]

Nope. You've made several statements (implicit and explicit) that I am male, even though you have never met me in person. You are in no position to determine my gender, and that you would trumpet baseless conjecture hurts what little credibility you have.

I assumed you were male. So did others. And yet, you do not respond in such a way to them, do you?

That still does not absolve you of the issues you clearly have with women in general. Your comments about women is offensive as they are ridiculous.

I haven't made any comments denigrating women in general. You, on the other hand, have adopted the victim status for women, and in doing so have denigrated them as a gender.

Really? So when you claimed that women hate guns because we have penis envy and all the lurid details you explained how a gun is phallic, you were not denigrating women?

How about when we consider the fact that you post negatively about women and feminists obsessively on this site. You have not posted about anything else or even participated in any other discussion on this site.

I mean sure, you might think you are fooling some people, but you are not that clever.

Oh dear, you're going to get me in trouble, are you? Once again, you're adopting the status of victim while simultaneously threatening me with your status as moderator on this forum.

You have only been here for 3 weeks. You know nothing about me or this site.

Apparently I'm persecuting you because I referenced a recent statement you made in a related thread.

Recent?

The statement to which you are referring to was back in May of this year, in a discussion about birth control and rape. Hardly recent, especially when one considers how time and posts fly on this site, and has nothing to do with this discussion, nor is it even remotely related to it. Or are you going to claim that you have gone back and read through thousands of my posts going back to May or earlier?

I'm targeting you because I haven't argued as much with other posters, in spite of you initially responding to me.

Right.. And this is why you are apparently reading through thousands of my posts for what I said to GeoffP about something completely unrelated to this discussion...?

A tad obsessive, don't you think? Not to mention somewhat creepy.

I'm suspicious because I want to protect myself with a proxy server.

You are suspicious because you have every appearance of being a sockpuppet.

I'm engaging in personal attacks, despite you having accused others of being rape apologists (an allegation that in real life could lead to social isolation and unemployment). Waa waa waa, you're such a precious little creature, aren't you? Listen, I don't have patience for your threats. Either ban me, or don't. Otherwise shut up and ignore me if you don't like what I have to say.

And either support your argument with evidence that the woman in this video was doing something to attract that type of attention to yourself or stop making such ridiculous and unfounded assertions. Such as the completely unfounded comments and accusations you have tried to make that I and others view the actions of the men in that video as threatening rape. You have repeatedly and deliberately missed context and accused others of saying things they have not said or done.

You won't get a third warning from me tali89.

 

[tali89]

I assumed you were male.

And yet you were previously denying this. You made an unfounded assumption, then when I called you on it, you repeatedly denied what you had said. Now you are handwaving your conjecture away, acting as though it wasn't a big deal. Honestly, I don't really care who or what you think I am. What is concerning is your tendency to present unfounded assumptions as fact.

Really? So when you claimed that women hate guns because we have penis envy and all the lurid details you explained how a gun is phallic, you were not denigrating women?

Nope. My observation was related to feminists who want to ban guns, not all women.

A tad obsessive, don't you think? Not to mention somewhat creepy.

You are suspicious because you have every appearance of being a sockpuppet.

You and Kittamaru have both admitted to attempting to trace my IP address, and you're calling *me* creepy? Haha, that's rich.

You won't get a third warning from me tali89.

I know you'd like to think I'm quaking in my boots, but trust me. I'm not.

 

[Capracus]

1) No, her clothes do not appear in the least intentionally sexy. 2) So what if they were?

Her clothes suited the strategic needs of the producers in that they were form fitting enough to highlight her curves, yet plain enough not to be considered overly provocative. You don’t think that the producers, whose stated intent was to elicit such behavior from men, desired some degree of provocatively from their actor?

How does that excuse their behavior? Are you arguing that any attractive woman walking through a populated area should, as a normal and expected constant in their lives, have to put up with that crap endlessly and without complaint?

You mean crap like saying hello and commenting on her good looks? Having to endure such obscenities every 500 meters of her journey must have been torturous.

That their behavior - the manner in which they "acknowledged" her - seems to be acceptable to people like you does not diminish its role or excuse its effect as harassment. There are many ways of "acknowledging" the attractiveness of a passing woman. This is chosen behavior.

But in a free society, you and I don’t necessarily get to dictate how others voice their appreciation.

So we agree that this behavior is common and seems normal.

I would say more common and normal in some locals than others.

Would you treat an attractive woman like that if she were your employer? If she were a police officer? Is that how your friends treat your daughter?

Personally I’m not in the habit of making such comments to women in public, and I seriously doubt a police women would put someone in cuffs over it. And I don’t recall hearing my friends making similar comments to my daughter.

They just looked like normal jeans and t-shirt to me.

Normal form fitting clothing.

So she should have worn a burka?

Being Jewish, I doubt wearing burka is her thing.

http://www.totpi.com/jewish-actress-shoshana-roberts-gets-death-threats-sex-harassment-video.html

But we know that doesn't work either - just need to read up on street harassment in Middle Eastern countries where women covered from head to toe in the loose garb are also harassed and sexually assaulted by men on the street.

Saying hello and commenting on her good looks on public streets is not sexual assault, and it’s a real stretch to call it sexual harassment.

Or wait.. Are you saying that women need to change how they dress so that random strangers on the street do not harass them?

If that’s what it takes to stop the perceived “torture.”

Does that mean that men need to harass her and stalk her and comment on her looks, tell her to smile?

Apparently many men felt the need to compliment her appearance, and possibly some endevored to establish a more personal relationship. How utterly criminal.

What should she have worn to not be harassed? Perhaps made herself look ugly?

She should‘ve worn a more reasonable definition of harassment.

It does if the recipient of such attention feels harassed.

So if a woman walks down the street and doesn’t get enough attention, is she also being slighted?

Complimentary?

You don’t recognize a compliment when you hear one? Never had such attention in public?

Should be thankful and grateful? Should she have given the guy who followed her and pestered her about how she was refusing to acknowledge him her phone number? Since he was being so complimentary and all?

You do realize it was part of the script to not acknowledge her commentators, and that a simple statement of rejection to an unwanted advance may have stopped them in their tracks. If it was a handsome well dressed Jewish doctor trying to get her attention, would it still be harassment in her eyes?

I mean, it is not viewing her as a mere sexual object, is it?

Is sexual objectification assumed to be absent from a purely visual encounter involving a member of the desired gender? Would this be biologically consistent with the human condition?

Do you also "compliment" women this way, Capracus? Do you yell out to women that way in the street? You know, since it is complimentary to women to comment on their bodies, faces, tell her smile, stalk her?

It’s not my style, but then again many socially accepted behaviors aren’t either.

Well good for her. Do you "compliment" her that way as well? Since you and she do not think it is harassment or even sexual harassment, do you say "damn girl.. mmm mmm mmmm" when she wears something nice? Do your friends say it to her? Since you seem to think that this is just behaviour that conveys a compliment to women.. How about as Iceaura asked above, do you say this to your boss? I dare you to walk up to a female officer, look her up and down and say it to her face. After all, you are just giving her a compliment on her body and her looks, right?

You seriously think that the use of the above language between familial adults is generally considered offensive? Certainly not in my neck of the woods. In the case of a female boss or coworker it would depend on the context of its use.

With all of the truly offensive, legally protected language hurled at female officers in their daily routine, you think they’re going to take offense at your above examples? HA!

Can I be arrested for yelling or swearing at a cop?

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/can-i-arrested-yelling-swearing-cop.html

After all, if it isn't sexual harassment or even harassment, and as you claim, it is just guys giving an attractive woman a compliment, what's the harm, right?

It may not be the way you and I choose to express ourselves, but like I said to Iceaura, in a free society you and I don’t necessarily get to dictate how others choose to express themselves.

 

[Bells]

And yet you were previously denying this. You made an unfounded assumption, then when I called you on it, you repeatedly denied what you had said. Now you are handwaving your conjecture away, acting as though it wasn't a big deal. Honestly, I don't really care who or what you think I am. What is concerning is your tendency to present unfounded assumptions as fact.

I asked you what your sex had to do with your being a misogynist.. I get how this confuses you, somewhat, but hey, the end result is still the same.

Nope. My observation was related to feminists who want to ban guns, not all women.

And in doing so, completely missed the context of what you were trying to comment on and made a ridiculous statement that was also offensive. Well done you! You should meet up with youreyes. You sound like you would get along great. He also has similar views on women and feminists and guns.

You and Kittamaru have both admitted to attempting to trace my IP address, and you're calling *me* creepy? Haha, that's rich.

We have the ability to check IP's and we tend to check those we suspect are sockpuppets. Your behaviour, manner of posting, and the very arguments you are making and the manner you make them screams sockpuppet.

No, we do not trace you, nor do we have the desire to do so. I mean, it's not like we're the type of people to go back months and vapidly read someone's posts from way back when in the hope that we may find something to use against them and then get it so spectacularly wrong in the process.

I know you'd like to think I'm quaking in my boots, but trust me. I'm not.

Still unable to explain how and what she was doing to draw that attention to herself?

Tsk, like a troll, you spout shit and scurry away.

Let me know when you stop hiding and you are actually able to support your claims with some evidence.

Normal form fitting clothing.

And what about it? What is so "come and make comments at me about my body" about it?

Is she wearing something that women just do not wear that her wearing them screams "LOOK AT MEEEE!"? Do you live in the sort of place where jeans and a t-shirt stands out from the crowd that you would find what she is wearing as being attention getting?

Because, I can tell you now, my mother wears jeans and t-shirts like she is wearing and she is in her late 70's...

Being Jewish, I doubt wearing burka is her thing.

So?

You are saying that she dressed in a way that would attract unwanted attention.. Would something like a burka have covered everything up and not attracted attention?

What should women wear to not attract that type of attention from men on the street?

You're a guy Capracus. What type of clothing stops you from saying "damn girl!" to a passing woman on the street? Share your perspective on the matter, since you were so keen to point out that jeans and a t-shirt are designed to attract street harassment.

Saying hello and commenting on her good looks on public streets is not sexual assault, and it’s a real stretch to call it sexual harassment.

Why do they need to comment on her good looks?

Would you comment on the good looks of your female boss? Would you look her up and down and comment on it at her after she walks past you? It's not sexual harassment, so what's the harm? And if you are like the men in the video, you should also stare at her breasts and her arse when doing so. For added affects of it not being sexual harassment.

If that’s what it takes to stop the perceived “torture.”

Or perhaps the men who behave in such a way should just not do it..?

Or are you going to suggest that men are incapable of self control when confronted with an attractive woman?

Apparently many men felt the need to compliment her appearance, and possibly some endevored to establish a more personal relationship. How utterly criminal.

Who said it was criminal?

I really like how the defenders of this type of behaviour take it to the extreme of suggesting that these men are threatening rape or are acting in a criminal way. The campaign against street harassment is to ensure women can walk on the street without having strangers harass them and without having women being afraid to walk on the street.

Do you disagree with the very basis of such a campaign?

Or do you think that men should continue to harass women on the street, even after they have clearly indicated that they are not interested by either continuing to walk away from them and refusing to acknowledge them? Like the guy who literally started following her and having a go at her for not talking to him... Is this acceptable behaviour in your opinion? Do you do this to women?

She should‘ve worn a more reasonable definition of harassment.

How does one wear a definition of harassment?

What type of clothes do you think would stop men from harassing women on the street?

What type of clothes stop you from harassing women around you?

So if a woman walks down the street and doesn’t get enough attention, is she also being slighted?

What?

Why does a woman need attention when she is walking down the street, going about her business?

Do you need attention of complete strangers when you walk down the street going about your daily business?

You don’t recognize a compliment when you hear one? Never had such attention in public?

Too many times actually. And it is unwelcome and is not complimentary at all. I don't consider being viewed as an object to be talked at and yelled at in the street about how my boobs look or my arse looks or how my mouth would look wrapped around a man's penis, to be complimentary. Do you think such things are complimentary? And do you say this to women as a form of compliment?

You do realize it was part of the script to not acknowledge her commentators, and that a simple statement of rejection to an unwanted advance may have stopped them in their tracks. If it was a handsome well dressed Jewish doctor trying to get her attention, would it still be harassment in her eyes?

Wow..

Nice anti-Semitic stereotyping there... Scraping the bottom of that barrel I see..

As was clearly evidenced in previous pages, some women who give such simple statements of rejection are sometimes beaten, raped, sexually assaulted, run over by cars and stalked and harassed in the street in full view of other people. Is this an acceptable risk for you?

Is sexual objectification assumed to be absent from a purely visual encounter involving a member of the desired gender? Would this be biologically consistent with the human condition?

I don't know, if a guy is looking at a woman's breasts or backside and licking his lips and going "damn mammi", you don't think he is objectifying her?

I get it, you are trying to find every single excuse under the sun to excuse this type of behaviour. I really do.. And perhaps you are defending it because this is normal for you to behave this way. But the reason this video caused such an uproar was because the majority agree that it is not acceptable and that it is downright creepy to behave this way.

It’s not my style, but then again many socially accepted behaviors aren’t either.

Why ever not?

After all, it isn't sexual harassment, is it?

You seriously think that the use of the above language between familial adults is generally considered offensive? Certainly not in my neck of the woods.

See, where I come from, a guy looking at his daughter's arse and saying "Damn girl" would be considered weird and somewhat perverse. And as you have just explained, commenting on a woman's backside, boobs, vagina and her body is not considered offensive in your neck of the woods and perhaps this is how you all behave around your relatives.

In the case of a female boss or coworker it would depend on the context of its use.

Next time your female boss walks past you, stare at her backside and say "damn mammi" and offer her your phone number. See how well that goes down.

Since you seem to believe this is not sexual harassment, what is the harm?

Just a small reminder for you though... You can tell us which camp you fall into!

With all of the truly offensive, legally protected language hurled at female officers in their daily routine, you think they’re going to take offense at your above examples? HA!

Can I be arrested for yelling or swearing at a cop?

Who said anything about swearing?

 

[Bells]

Let's make it about the 'dudes'..

Elon James White has a brilliant observation about the street harassment video..

The dialogue inspired This Week in Blackness CEO Elon James White to question why, if this behaviour is so harmless, or "complimentary," don't men do it with other men.​

A valid question.

Why don't men do this with other men?

#dudesgreetingdudes

If women don't want men to talk to them, then say it to other men. Since it is not sexual harassment or harassment at all but just some guys feeling the need to be friendly and "complimentary", there is nothing wrong with it. So these men should be saying it other men. Leave those pesky women out of the equation altogether! And there are so many things that you can say to another guy, what he is wearing, what he looks like in his clothes, etc..

 

[iceaura]

Her clothes suited the strategic needs of the producers in that they were form fitting enough to highlight her curves, yet plain enough not to be considered overly provocative

So we are agreed: the clothes she was wearing were not noticeably provocative, and neither was her behavior.

You haven't explained, btw, why that was even an issue with you or the other folks here who seem obsessed with her provocativeness or attitude or whatever. Why is that? Why are you guys bringing the topic up, repeatedly and from various (even contradictory) angles?

You mean crap like saying hello and commenting on her good looks?

I mean the crap the guys in that video were dishing out to a complete stranger minding her own business on the public street.

But in a free society, you and I don’t necessarily get to dictate how others voice their appreciation.

In a free society we can defend ourselves, and others, from casual assault - regardless of whether the perp "appreciates" his behavior or not. In a free society we don't have to put up with harassment. In a free society we get to "appreciate" harassment, and respond accordingly - such as by stuffing it back in the perp's pie hole with full community support, at our discretion entirely. Clearly a whole lot of women in our society find it less free than you seem to think it is, for you.

Personally I’m not in the habit of making such comments to women in public, and I seriously doubt a police women would put someone in cuffs over it. And I don’t recall hearing my friends making similar comments to my daughter.

And no one is surprised. Funny, that. It's almost as if you guys know what you are doing - you're not half as clueless, in the presence of consequences, as you talk. Your friends, at least those who expect to remain your friends, know better than to treat your daughter like that. They would face consequences.

Apparently many men felt the need to compliment her appearance, and possibly some endevored to establish a more personal relationship. How utterly criminal.

Feeling needs is one's own business. Using one's felt needs to justify harassing people on the street is a symptom of mental disorder. Attempting to "establish a more personal relationship" in the manner videotaped is a form of assault.

You do realize it was part of the script to not acknowledge her commentators, and that a simple statement of rejection to an unwanted advance may have stopped them in their tracks

It would have taken more than one hundred such "simple statements", a new one every six minutes on average. And each one would carry the risk of escalation - as you acknowledge, in that key word "may".

In the case of a female boss or coworker it would depend on the context of its use.

And you would be aware of that context, not running your mouth without consideration of your target's point of view. That's because you would be accountable for your behavior, and vulnerable yourself.

 

[tali89]

Harassment. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[GeoffP]

Right.. And this is why you are apparently reading through thousands of my posts for what I said to GeoffP about something completely unrelated to this discussion...?

Not to detract from the discussion, but I would ask this moderator "not to use my name or make claims about me", since in context of this post - http://www.sciforums.com/threads/i-guess-jamesr-didnt-read-all-the-rules.142951/#post-3239758 - there is now a new stipulation on non-interaction:

GeoffP - Please do not use my name and make claims about me. And please do not call people names.

 

[Tiassa]

Mod Hat — Closure

Since this thread has pretty much always been about something other than its ostensible topic, and the way of the walk for the pro-harassment side is to keep changing the subject, we can pretty much send this one the way of the other discussions they work so hard to wreck.

I will, however, make a comment on a larger issue: When you troll other threads to closure, and then immediately post multiple new versions in order to isolate related components for examination in a contextual vacuum, and struggle so mightily to keep the discussion focused on personal pride and other distractions, it's hard for the staff to not notice what is going on, and we will only play pretend for the benefit of those delicate egos for so long.