First, let me tackle the flat verses sphere. The Quran speaks of the earth as expanded, vast, in layers, ect....There is no direct claim in the Quran that the earth is flat. If you have a verse please submit for my review. Your claim as far as the earth is flat is totally bogus.
As far as the claims about how humans were created. Let's look at each of these verses that you brought forward.
1- Created from earth
[11.61] And to Samood (We sent) their brother Salih. He said: O my people! serve Allah, you have no god other than He; He brought you into being from the earth, and made you dwell in it, therefore ask forgiveness of Him, then turn to Him; surely my Lord is Nigh, Answering.
In this verse, god clears up all speculations that we were created in the heaven like christians talk of and then decended to earth. God tells us that we were created from earth and meant to live on earth and our bodies will return to earth...No original sin, no man fell from heaven, no other crap.
2- dry clay.
[15.26] And certainly We created man of clay that gives forth sound, of black mud fashioned in shape.
There is no mention of the word dry clay in the Quran. The author of the site has inserted the word dry on purpose to make the wet claim in the Quran sound like a contradiiction. Still no contradiction, black mud is part of earth.
3- Nothing, 19.67
[19.66] And says man: What! when I am dead shall I truly be brought forth alive?
[19.67] Does not man remember that We created him before, when he was nothing?
In this verse, god was not at all explaining what we were created from, but he was contesting the Atheist believe that the dead will not come back to life, so god reminds us that, we were created from almost nothing, lack of life, clay, death, ect, and yet we were brought to life in our mother's wombs at what stage exactly, we have no idea. There is no contradictions here.
4- Not from nothing.....This is a total bogus claim from you. Examine the verses below
[52.33] Or do they say: He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe.
[52.34] Then let them bring an announcement like it if they are truthful.
[52.35] Or were they created without there being anything, or are they the creators?
[52.36] Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay! they have no certainty.
In these verses, god is saying that those who won't believe claim that the Quran is forged, so god asks them to bring a similar announcement, the Atheists also say that they were created without anything being around, or that they created themselves, ect.....Where in these verses does god say that we are not created from nothing....Seems to me the person that put this contradiction list was trying real hard to smear Quran at any cost.
5- wet earth.
As mentioned in 2, the word dry was never used in the Quran, so the assertion that the mud is wet is not contradictory to earth or mud.
6- Mire
Let's examine the Sura.
[38.71] When your Lord said to the angels; Surely I am going to create a mortal from dust:
The english translation here mentions dust. The arabic word is really clay, and what is the difference between dust and clay. Dust is the particle, while clay is wet dust. The word Mire is not used in this translation.
7- Water.
Water is a component. God doesn't say here that we are created from only water. He just says water. No contradiction.
8- Dust
See comment 6, Again no contradiction.
James. Lack of faith is entirely not your problem. Ignorance and lack of understanding is hurting you big time. First ask yourself that question. Is it really worth is for a man like you to go to a non checked site without making any effort to check the orginal arabic verses to assert a wrong belief in your head that the Quran is wrong? Is it really worth it?
If you are planning on feeding on English translated Quran and the fact that English is way limited than arabic in vocublry and grammer which will result in imminent trivial contradictions to blaphsem the book....then go ahead, but you are digging yourself deeper in your ignorace about the subject, and ignorant is how you'll be treated by me in the future.
You are so damn hilarious. What a hypocrite???? You are willing to consider a stupid scholar idiot word as command and diss a miracle work of art compiled 1500 years ago and accepted by billions. How the hell do I know that he is muslim? And who the hell care if he is muslim or being fucked by a donkey? How the hell do I know who is muslim????Only god can evluate the submittion state, since submittion is to god and not me or you....Are you retarded James?????
I don't give a shit if other people disagree with me. It's my life, my salvation, my understanding, my neck, my responsbility.
The rest of your bull shit
I noticed you added more garbage later, so let me explain.
Have you ever studied topography James? From a man's prespective, the earth can have zero slope, positive slopes, negative slopes, ect.... Also, can you cover the earth with a carpet? Yes of course. Who the hell said the carpet has to be flat??? I can lay out carpet on a sphere, downhill, uphill, anyway you want it. Again, the word flat was never used. Yet the word carpet is very accurate, because it implies that the earth is anchored in place like a carpet with gravity.
Well, according to our most modern calendars and time systems. China is the place designated the zero hour. The place that is touched by the sun first. Look at your globe and you'll find that china is the place of the sun setting and starting. Nothing wrong about that verse, unless I act dumb and start imagining the sun literally touching the ground.
What is the definition of lamps? There was no lamps back 1500 years ago? There was no electricity. Lamps meant stars. We are the idiots that used the word lamp to describe our current light fixtures.
I noticed you added more garbage later, so let me explain.
Have you ever studied topography James? From a man's prespective, the earth can have zero slope, positive slopes, negative slopes, ect.... Also, can you cover the earth with a carpet? Yes of course. Who the hell said the carpet has to be flat??? I can lay out carpet on a sphere, downhill, uphill, anyway you want it. Again, the word flat was never used. Yet the word carpet is very accurate, because it implies that the earth is anchored in place like a carpet with gravity.
Well, according to our most modern calendars and time systems. China is the place designated the zero hour. The place that is touched by the sun first. Look at your globe and you'll find that china is the place of the sun setting and starting. Nothing wrong about that verse, unless I act dumb and start imagining the sun literally touching the ground.
What is the definition of lamps? There was no lamps back 1500 years ago? There was no electricity. Lamps meant stars. We are the idiots that used the word lamp to describe our current light fixtures.
Flores:
Interesting response. You're really stretching to try to make things fit, aren't you?
I mean, it's quite a stretch to claim that water and clay and mud and dust are all the same thing. But never mind. Maybe the Qu'ran is not actually wrong here, but just very vague. That suggests to me that it is less than perfect, because presumably a perfect text would be clear and unambiguous about important matters such as this.
<i>Is it really worth is for a man like you to go to a non checked site without making any effort to check the orginal arabic verses to assert a wrong belief in your head that the Quran is wrong? Is it really worth it?</i>
Given that every major text contains some errors, it would be astounding indeed if the Qu'ran contained not a single error. But with just a little checking, it is easy to see that the evidence points towards the text being less than perfect.
I notice you also avoided the point about the original arabic verses (incorrect grammar etc.)
<i>What a hypocrite???? You are willing to consider a stupid scholar idiot word as command and diss a miracle work of art compiled 1500 years ago and accepted by billions.</i>
I'm not dissing the Qu'ran. I'm just rebutting the silly claim that it contains no errors. Of course it is a very significant book, but it is nevertheless a book written by human beings, who are fallible.
<i>How the hell do I know that he is muslim? And who the hell care if he is muslim or being fucked by a donkey? How the hell do I know who is muslim????Only god can evluate the submittion state, since submittion is to god and not me or you....Are you retarded James?????</i>
No, I am not retarded, but thankyou for asking. Do you have something in particular against intellectually handicapped people, Flores?
BTW, it says a lot about you that you will call a fellow Muslim who, presumably, has dedicated a reasonable portion of his life to study your sacred text, a "stupid scholar idiot" when you know nothing more about him than his name.
<i>I don't give a shit if other people disagree with me.</i>
Therein lies the problem. You'll never learn anything with that attitude.
<i>Have you ever studied topography James? From a man's prespective, the earth can have zero slope, positive slopes, negative slopes, ect....</i>
Yes, I have, as it happens.
<i>Also, can you cover the earth with a carpet? Yes of course. Who the hell said the carpet has to be flat??? I can lay out carpet on a sphere, downhill, uphill, anyway you want it.</i>
How many bumpy carpets have you come across, Flores? LOL.
<i>Well, according to our most modern calendars and time systems. China is the place designated the zero hour. The place that is touched by the sun first. Look at your globe and you'll find that china is the place of the sun setting and starting. Nothing wrong about that verse, unless I act dumb and start imagining the sun literally touching the ground.</i>
That is exactly what the verse seems to imply. And again, you are severely stretching things to say the sun only rises and sets in China, don't you think? No, I'm sure you've convinced yourself.
<i>What is the definition of lamps? There was no lamps back 1500 years ago? There was no electricity. Lamps meant stars.</i>
Thanks for clearing that up. So:
The stars (lamps) are therefore in the lowest heaven. The moon is also within the seven heavens. Therefore, the Qu'ran is saying that, at the very least, the closest stars to the Earth are at least as close as the moon.
Scientifically, that seems to be incorrect. Oops! Another mistake in the perfect book.
Interesting response. You're really stretching to try to make things fit, aren't you?
I mean, it's quite a stretch to claim that water and clay and mud and dust are all the same thing. But never mind. Maybe the Qu'ran is not actually wrong here, but just very vague. That suggests to me that it is less than perfect, because presumably a perfect text would be clear and unambiguous about important matters such as this.
<i>Is it really worth is for a man like you to go to a non checked site without making any effort to check the orginal arabic verses to assert a wrong belief in your head that the Quran is wrong? Is it really worth it?</i>
Given that every major text contains some errors, it would be astounding indeed if the Qu'ran contained not a single error. But with just a little checking, it is easy to see that the evidence points towards the text being less than perfect.
I notice you also avoided the point about the original arabic verses (incorrect grammar etc.)
<i>What a hypocrite???? You are willing to consider a stupid scholar idiot word as command and diss a miracle work of art compiled 1500 years ago and accepted by billions.</i>
I'm not dissing the Qu'ran. I'm just rebutting the silly claim that it contains no errors. Of course it is a very significant book, but it is nevertheless a book written by human beings, who are fallible.
<i>How the hell do I know that he is muslim? And who the hell care if he is muslim or being fucked by a donkey? How the hell do I know who is muslim????Only god can evluate the submittion state, since submittion is to god and not me or you....Are you retarded James?????</i>
No, I am not retarded, but thankyou for asking. Do you have something in particular against intellectually handicapped people, Flores?
BTW, it says a lot about you that you will call a fellow Muslim who, presumably, has dedicated a reasonable portion of his life to study your sacred text, a "stupid scholar idiot" when you know nothing more about him than his name.
<i>I don't give a shit if other people disagree with me.</i>
Therein lies the problem. You'll never learn anything with that attitude.
<i>Have you ever studied topography James? From a man's prespective, the earth can have zero slope, positive slopes, negative slopes, ect....</i>
Yes, I have, as it happens.
<i>Also, can you cover the earth with a carpet? Yes of course. Who the hell said the carpet has to be flat??? I can lay out carpet on a sphere, downhill, uphill, anyway you want it.</i>
How many bumpy carpets have you come across, Flores? LOL.
<i>Well, according to our most modern calendars and time systems. China is the place designated the zero hour. The place that is touched by the sun first. Look at your globe and you'll find that china is the place of the sun setting and starting. Nothing wrong about that verse, unless I act dumb and start imagining the sun literally touching the ground.</i>
That is exactly what the verse seems to imply. And again, you are severely stretching things to say the sun only rises and sets in China, don't you think? No, I'm sure you've convinced yourself.
<i>What is the definition of lamps? There was no lamps back 1500 years ago? There was no electricity. Lamps meant stars.</i>
Thanks for clearing that up. So:
The stars (lamps) are therefore in the lowest heaven. The moon is also within the seven heavens. Therefore, the Qu'ran is saying that, at the very least, the closest stars to the Earth are at least as close as the moon.
Scientifically, that seems to be incorrect. Oops! Another mistake in the perfect book.
P
Proud_Syrian
Guest
ABSOLUTELY, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT.
P
Proud_Syrian
Guest
LOOOOOOOOOL
Quote from a muslim scholar ?? DASHTI ??? lol who the hell is he ??? I never heard of him and I am sure the majority of muslims never heard of him........I know, it is answering islam site at it again.
Down to the nitty gritty, tell me how this is a far stretch
I'm extremely convinced and you also have to be convinced. Check this out. Zul Qarnein means the man with two horns translated in Greek to be Al (The) Qarn(Asken in Greek), means horn (dr = dual in Greek). So Zul Qarnein is Alexander the Great. The Quran is telling the story of Alexander the Great, a history character that although it never was known to believe in god was described in the Quran as a man of vision and insight to understand the world. Alexander is known to visit China. Now, do you know that China has a muddy spring? Yes, they do...It's called the Yellow river....It's the most amazing thing for a sediment transport major like me, since this river is able to hold an incredible out of ordinary amount of sediment at all time and hence called the yellow river. China is also the place of the setting and rising of the sun, so geographically defining the place by it's time zone is an incredibly and miraculous way to do it 1500 years ago.
The Quran didn't say that, you did. No one knows the extent of each heaven. One heaven could encompass all the stars and planets that we see, and perhaps the other heaven are out of our knowledge and reach. Stating that the moon and some stars may lie in the same heaven doesn't speak of their proximity to one another.
You are the biggest oops, I've ever seen. Until now, you have not proved one single mistake in the Quran yet.....
I'm extremely convinced and you also have to be convinced. Check this out. Zul Qarnein means the man with two horns translated in Greek to be Al (The) Qarn(Asken in Greek), means horn (dr = dual in Greek). So Zul Qarnein is Alexander the Great. The Quran is telling the story of Alexander the Great, a history character that although it never was known to believe in god was described in the Quran as a man of vision and insight to understand the world. Alexander is known to visit China. Now, do you know that China has a muddy spring? Yes, they do...It's called the Yellow river....It's the most amazing thing for a sediment transport major like me, since this river is able to hold an incredible out of ordinary amount of sediment at all time and hence called the yellow river. China is also the place of the setting and rising of the sun, so geographically defining the place by it's time zone is an incredibly and miraculous way to do it 1500 years ago.
The Quran didn't say that, you did. No one knows the extent of each heaven. One heaven could encompass all the stars and planets that we see, and perhaps the other heaven are out of our knowledge and reach. Stating that the moon and some stars may lie in the same heaven doesn't speak of their proximity to one another.
You are the biggest oops, I've ever seen. Until now, you have not proved one single mistake in the Quran yet.....
Proud_Syrian:
Professor Ali Dashti was an Iranian Muslim scholar who wrote the book "23 years", about Muhammad and his 23 years of prophetic life. For his efforts, he was inprisoned during the rule of the Ayatollah Khomeni. He died in prison.
It seems he greatly upset a number of fundamentalist Muslims.
Another victory for free speech in Islam, it seems.
Professor Ali Dashti was an Iranian Muslim scholar who wrote the book "23 years", about Muhammad and his 23 years of prophetic life. For his efforts, he was inprisoned during the rule of the Ayatollah Khomeni. He died in prison.
It seems he greatly upset a number of fundamentalist Muslims.
Another victory for free speech in Islam, it seems.
Flores,
The whole thing about the sun only rising and setting in China is just silly, but let me go back a little. You said:
<i>Well, according to our most modern calendars and time systems. China is the place designated the zero hour.</i>
I missed this before. It's totally wrong, of course. If anything, the zero hour is defined by the Greenwich meridian, which passes through Greenwich (in England), not China, funnily enough.
Of course, the concept of time zones is very very recent, and was unknown when the Qu'ran was written.
I think I'm going to score at least 1 for the number of errors in the Qu'ran uncovered in this thread at this stage.
The whole thing about the sun only rising and setting in China is just silly, but let me go back a little. You said:
<i>Well, according to our most modern calendars and time systems. China is the place designated the zero hour.</i>
I missed this before. It's totally wrong, of course. If anything, the zero hour is defined by the Greenwich meridian, which passes through Greenwich (in England), not China, funnily enough.
Of course, the concept of time zones is very very recent, and was unknown when the Qu'ran was written.
I think I'm going to score at least 1 for the number of errors in the Qu'ran uncovered in this thread at this stage.
P
Proud_Syrian
Guest
Scholar ?? wrote a book ??? GIVE ME A BREAK !!
Proud Syrian,
Of all the major religions in the world, I will fully admit that Islam is the one I know the least about, so I can not comment on the supposed contradictions that are being pointed out.
But I would like to learn much more about it, so I look for threads like this (showing both sides of arguments, plus pointing out the history and tennets etc in the religion).
What I would like to point out is your reaction to these alleged contradictions.
First of all your argument with Randalfo is silly at best.
You are both stating that the other is wrong and both telling each other to check for themselves, but neither of you are stating any sources of facts regarding some very simple things to prove, but expecting the other to do it.
OK, the Cow is very long.
How long?
How long is the first one?
Are there any after the Cow that are longer?
Which ones?
How long?
Same thing with the contradicting historical "facts"...
Where's the evidence from either of you?
"I'm right"
"No, you are stupid, you're wrong."
"Check your facts."
"No, you check YOUR facts."
It sounds like a couple of 4 year olds.
Also...
Your attitude seems to be pretty closed-minded, irrational and detrimental to your own personal growth and understanding.
You effectively issued a challenge by stating:
James called you on that and posted a link to a web page that listed quite a few contradictions with links to some fairly comprehensive papers that back up the claims with verse and reason.
Your reply was to simply discount it because it comes from a "hate" site.
You question the intelligence and intentions of someone you admittedly know nothing about and mock him and call his credentials into question.
Then, when James answers, you continue to mock him and completely discount him without even addressing any real issues.
You still have not addressed a single alleged contradiction listed.
If it is bullshit and meaningless drivel from a hate site, then it should be quite easy to debunk and disprove.
Did you even bother to read the claims put forth?
So reason and logic tells you to not even bother considering someone's point of view, regardless of how intelligent it may be, simply because they are of a different opinion than you?
I understand now.
If I agree with you I am a wise person that deserves your respect, regardless of any supporting evidence I may offer, however, if I disagree with you, regardless of any supporting evidence I offer, I am simply a brain-washed dullard that doesn't even deserve enough respect from you to even read what I have to say, nevermind respond to it.
Is that your basic policy with everything, or just Islam?
Again:
Can you?
Or do you prfer to sit in your statgnat myopic muddle of UNREASONABLE faith?
Of all the major religions in the world, I will fully admit that Islam is the one I know the least about, so I can not comment on the supposed contradictions that are being pointed out.
But I would like to learn much more about it, so I look for threads like this (showing both sides of arguments, plus pointing out the history and tennets etc in the religion).
What I would like to point out is your reaction to these alleged contradictions.
First of all your argument with Randalfo is silly at best.
You are both stating that the other is wrong and both telling each other to check for themselves, but neither of you are stating any sources of facts regarding some very simple things to prove, but expecting the other to do it.
OK, the Cow is very long.
How long?
How long is the first one?
Are there any after the Cow that are longer?
Which ones?
How long?
Same thing with the contradicting historical "facts"...
Where's the evidence from either of you?
"I'm right"
"No, you are stupid, you're wrong."
"Check your facts."
"No, you check YOUR facts."
It sounds like a couple of 4 year olds.
Also...
Your attitude seems to be pretty closed-minded, irrational and detrimental to your own personal growth and understanding.
You effectively issued a challenge by stating:
James called you on that and posted a link to a web page that listed quite a few contradictions with links to some fairly comprehensive papers that back up the claims with verse and reason.
Your reply was to simply discount it because it comes from a "hate" site.
You question the intelligence and intentions of someone you admittedly know nothing about and mock him and call his credentials into question.
Then, when James answers, you continue to mock him and completely discount him without even addressing any real issues.
You still have not addressed a single alleged contradiction listed.
If it is bullshit and meaningless drivel from a hate site, then it should be quite easy to debunk and disprove.
Did you even bother to read the claims put forth?
I see.
So reason and logic tells you to not even bother considering someone's point of view, regardless of how intelligent it may be, simply because they are of a different opinion than you?
I understand now.
If I agree with you I am a wise person that deserves your respect, regardless of any supporting evidence I may offer, however, if I disagree with you, regardless of any supporting evidence I offer, I am simply a brain-washed dullard that doesn't even deserve enough respect from you to even read what I have to say, nevermind respond to it.
Is that your basic policy with everything, or just Islam?
Again:
If that is true, then why not attempt to have a REASONABLE and LOGICAL discussion on the matter, rather than simply saying, "I am right, and the facts back me up, (without, of course, stating and supporting any of these "facts") and YOUR facts are simply hate induced propaganda (without, of coursem, refuting any of the "facts" offered)?
Can you?
Or do you prfer to sit in your statgnat myopic muddle of UNREASONABLE faith?
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You score negative.....You are laughable.
You are so so so silly. Just view the current times all over the world and tell me who is ahead of everybody is it your silly England? Your brits are currently procrastinating and having their mid day nap thinking it's August 29th, while the chinease are getting up early to welcome August 30th. China is the first place that the sun of the new day touches and the Quran knows that, too bad you don't know that.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
To you it's a very very recent concept, to god, he creates the sun, moon, and earth, he knows that china the place of the yellow river recieves the sun rays first.
You score shit...yet you are determined to continue in being a donkey.
You are so so so silly. Just view the current times all over the world and tell me who is ahead of everybody is it your silly England? Your brits are currently procrastinating and having their mid day nap thinking it's August 29th, while the chinease are getting up early to welcome August 30th. China is the first place that the sun of the new day touches and the Quran knows that, too bad you don't know that.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
To you it's a very very recent concept, to god, he creates the sun, moon, and earth, he knows that china the place of the yellow river recieves the sun rays first.
You score shit...yet you are determined to continue in being a donkey.
Proud Syrian is only familiar with the concept of accredited colleges. The university of Osama Bin Laden or the christian coalition can issue all the PHD's they wish and it is less worthy than an accredited kindergarden degree.
A thorough investigation of your Ali Dashti didn't reveal anything. There is no professor in any accredidted university by the name of Ali Dashti. The only one I found in an unaccredited University happen to be another Ali Dashti a staff in the computer science department.
http://ecealpha.ece.eng.kuniv.edu.kw/computer/staff/alidashti.html
You got duped by Jerry Falwell and his clones James......I pity your ignorance.
Re: You score negative.....You are laughable.
On the globe japan and vladivostok (russia) are disposed towards east than china. moreover there is no first ray on a revolving globe. Koran has more better points to high light than senseless statistics like this.
if God wanted to highlight statistics He could have done in a better way. obviously that is not His intention. leave Koran alone for what it is.
Flores,
On the globe japan and vladivostok (russia) are disposed towards east than china. moreover there is no first ray on a revolving globe. Koran has more better points to high light than senseless statistics like this.
if God wanted to highlight statistics He could have done in a better way. obviously that is not His intention. leave Koran alone for what it is.
The yellow river traverse this entire area and the Quran never mention china per say. The Quran mentions the race of the occupants of this land as the gog and Magog, who are known to us as the mongols. This is the race of some chinease, Japanease, and Russians.
In any geographic information system, a revolving globe or any other geometric piece is defined by a set of coordinates subject to universal directions which are set as east, west, north, and south coordinates, and since we revolve clockwise, the east become the initiator of each revolution.
I agree completely, and I'm not in favor of using the Quran to demonstrate miracles or to even show it's worth, but the stupid discussion was initiated by Proud Syrian and by him starting it, I feel responsible for butting in and clearing imminent attacks and misconceptions.
Amen to you everneo. When us humans try to take a universal piece of writing that is designed to withstand the test of time and try to analyze it based on our limited understanding, then we are automatically running the risk of limiting the meaning of the passage to our current understanding....We will be in constant needing to adjust our analysis in the future to match future understanding. And there will always be people like James that feed on this human incompetance in understanding to show that the Quran is inaccurate.
Again, any traveller following silk route would know this. This need not be considered as a great revealation. atleast this is not one of core points of Quran.
Now, this is a problem. It seems using Quran and Allah is the best way to be protected by Muslims. irrespective of the validness.. do you see the irony.? proudsyrian might have done this out of enthusiasm, but some of the misguided islamists use this weakness of muslims for their own use. when is the ummah going to realise this, Flores.?