Splinter: Hating Muhammad

The model is one of ethnocentrism, not of a Muslim country. The Saudis don't want you to dress or speak like other Muslims. They want you to dress and speak like Saudis [although the rules are slightly relaxed for foreigners]. The law also applies to Moroccans, Indians, Pakistanis and Tunisians.
 
S.A.M. said:
The model is one of ethnocentrism, not of a Muslim country. The Saudis don't want you to dress or speak like other Muslims. They want you to dress and speak like Saudis [although the rules are slightly relaxed for foreigners]. The law also applies to Moroccans, Indians, Pakistanis and Tunisians.
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So what? What does this have to do with my post? The Saudi's are free to demand what they want of their immigrants.
 
Sure, and this is the model you support, although its not the model you feel comfortable with. Or is your feeling of comfort more significant than that of Arab women who move to western countries?
 
S.A.M. said:
Sure, and this is the model you support, although its not the model you feel comfortable with. Or is your feeling of comfort more significant than that of Arab women who move to western countries?
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What model is it you think I support? Elaborate exactly what it is you mean and are referring to or you are just attempting to put words in my mouth. What do you mean about my level of comfort? I can live in NY but choose not to. I guess I could live in Singapore but I also choose not to, so really I don't understand what you are talking about. I have no desire to live in KL or Dubai though they are nice for a vacation. The Saudi's are free to do whatever they choose in their own society, if I lived there its because I want to comply with these things otherwise I wouldn't live there.
 
But you don't live in England either. Why would you take away the right to make the kind of choice you have made, by living in a country that accomodates your culture, from other people in your own country?
 
S.A.M. said:
But you don't live in England either. Why would you take away the right to make the kind of choice you have made, by living in a country that accomodates your culture, from other people in your own country?
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What are you talking about Sam? You are not being clear at all. What difference does it make if I am back in England or NY? What choices are you talking about? I live in a country where there is a very small expat group and we are not immigrants, most of us stay anywhere from 1 year to 5 and then leave. We ask nothing of the Khmers as far as essential rights, we are there on visa's and would have to leave the moment the cambodian government stated so. Some stay longer if they marry a local in which case they begin to integrate into Khmer households and thereby the culture. If I had to live a country where I was forced to wear a veil I would either wear it or leave. If I go on vacation to Israel and go into an orthodox community in Jerusalem I would have to cover my shoulders and knees, that's the way it is. If I didn't want to do that I wouldn't go, I certainly wouldn't demand that they accommodate me.
 
I just find it odd that you live as an Englishwoman in Cambodia and yet promote an ethnocentric point of view for your own country. What does it matter if you follow your own culture for 5 years or 50? Should Americans have reverted to the native American way of life in 5o years? Should Australians have reverted to the Aboriginal way of life in 50 years? Should the native Americans or Aboriginals have been forcibly assimilated by the people who wanted them to "integrate"?

f I go on vacation to Israel and go into an orthodox community in Jerusalem I would have to cover my shoulders and knees, that's the way it is. If I didn't want to do that I wouldn't go, I certainly wouldn't demand that they accommodate me.
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And, you would not choose to live there because it is unfriendly to your culture. But you would support European culture becoming similarly unfriendly to other cultures.

The idea that anyone can decide what is the appropriate "culture" for someone else is really weird to me. I cannot understand how someone like you could possibly support such a notion, having read many of your posts on similar topics.
 
S.A.M. said:
I just find it odd that you live as an Englishwoman in Cambodia and yet promote an ethnocentric point of view for your own country. What does it matter if you follow your own culture for 5 years or 50? Should Americans have reverted to the native American way of life in 5o years? Should Australians have reverted to the Aboriginal way of life in 50 years? Should the native Americans or Aboriginals have been forcibly assimilated by the people who wanted them to "integrate"?

And, you would not choose to live there because it is unfriendly to your culture. But you would support European culture becoming similarly unfriendly to other cultures.

The idea that anyone can decide what is the appropriate "culture" for someone else is really weird to me. I cannot understand how someone like you could possibly support such a notion, having read many of your posts on similar topics.
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So to you integration is ethnocentric? Its not my definition of integration.

No I would not choose to live there because I would not choose to live there. I have no indication to believe that they are unfriendly. Why would I want to live there? You do not make a valid point by asking why I don't want to live in a muslim country or in Israel especially in regards to immigrants who are requesting the right to live and work in another country. Immigrants who are looking for citizenship need to adapt to their new society if this is necessary to get along in the new society.

Which Europeans are you referring to? Its made up of different countries with different cultures. Oh yes I forgot you homogenize the 'west' as other's do with Muslims.

I think many western European countries have been quite open to other cultures and people and some even pay the price for it.

Where have you seen me say that I support someone deciding someone elses culture? You again are putting words in my mouth or fail to read and comprehend posts. I say that it is right to demand that immigrants

A. learn the language
B. Not isolate their children in schools where the host language is a second language
C. Integrate into the society they live in and not live in isolated groups cut off from the host society so that the two never mix
D. Honor their new nation as opposed to waving the flag of their former nation and not even including that of the new nation.
E. Show respect for the new society that has adopted them.

You shouldn't find it odd that an Englishwoman lives in Cambodia...'mad dog's an Englishman' and all that.:rolleyes:

Cambodia doesn't need immigrants but it does need its expats for the time being, like Thailand there will be a time when that is no longer needed, where the expats do not fill a gap and we will leave or they will change their visa requirements and we will leave. Thailand now has strict visa requirements as they no longer need foreigners to fill jobs, they are now able to hire their own for many positions.
 
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A. learn the language
B. Not isolate their children in schools where the host language is a second language
C. Integrate into the society they live in and not live in isolated groups cut off from the host society so that the two never mix
D. Honor their new nation as opposed to waving the flag of their former nation and not even including that of the new nation.
E. Show respect for the new society that has adopted them.
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So you would never live in the US, Canada or Australia because they have done none of the above?

You think Indians are not integrated because most of the immigrant communities are discrete and self sufficient and mostly, do not mix?

So to you integration is ethnocentric? Its not my definition of integration.
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Speaking English in Cambodia, wearing English clothes, dating white English men and assuring me that you have no intention of staying on [which justifies all of the above in your mind] is ethnocentricism. I don't recall ever behaving like that in any country. In Saudi Arabia, I learned the language, wore the veil, hung out with Saudi and Egyptian and Sudanese and Moroccan men and women and cooked and ate Arabic food alongwith Filipino food and Indonesian food and Indian food. I still however considered myself Indian.

In the US, my best friend is a Korean, my other good friend is a white American. I along with my other Asian friends celebrated Thanksgiving by making an Asian style turkey, spoke English and wore western clothing. However I was still very Indian.

So yes, I find you ethnocentric in your practices. Don't you?


I think many western European countries have been quite open to other cultures and people and some even pay the price for it.
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And what "price" is that?
 
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S.A.M. said:
So you would never live in the US, Canada or Australia because they have done none of the above?

You think Indians are not integrated because most of the immigrant communities are discrete and self sufficient and mostly, do not mix?
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I have lived in the States, my mother lives in NY. I have no interest in living in Canada nor Australia but it has nothing to do with that list. What about timbuktu or New Zealand or Ghana? You pick countries out of a hat and ask why I don't live there :rolleyes:

Why do you insist on spending time in the West which you criticize for its politics and hypocrisy? I think its hypocritical of you. Why don't you just stay in India or other countries like it? If you don't like the West you should do yourself and a favor and stay out of it and be with the democratic, multicultural society that you think is so great. I liked India but I wouldn't want to live there either, one year was enough.

What Indians?
 
Lucysnow said:
I have lived in the States, my mother lives in NY. I have no interest in living in Canada nor Australia but it has nothing to do with that list. What about timbuktu or New Zealand or Ghana? You pick countries out of a hat and ask why I don't live there? :rolleyes: Why do you insist on spending time in the West which you criticize for its politics and hypocrisy? Why don't you just stay in India or other countries like it? If you don't like the West you should do yourself and a favor and stay out of it.
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I visit many countries and accomodate myself accordingly, I have no problem staying in anyplace that is accomodating to my culture. You'll not find me living for long in a place that bans the scarf [e.g. Turkey] or otherwise acts like they have a right to tell me how Indian or Muslim I can be before it is offensive to their sensibilities.

What Indians?
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The brown ones.:rolleyes:
 
S.A.M. said:
Speaking English in Cambodia, wearing English clothes, dating white English men and assuring me that you have no intention of staying on [which justifies all of the above in your mind] is ethnocentricism. I don't recall ever behaving like that in any country. In Saudi Arabia, I learned the language, hung out with Saudi and Egyptian and Sudanese and Moroccan men and women and cooked and ate Arabic food alongwith Filipino food and Indonesian food and Indian food. I still however considered myself Indian.

So yes, I find you ethnocentric in your practices. Don't you?

And what "price" is that?
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Their tax dollars and social welfare system.

The Khmers wear western clothes, many speak french and english, some (actually quite a few) of the women date, marry and have children with white men.

I will only date western men but never said they had to be white, that's your estimation and as usual you label and judge people, motive and opinion wrongly.

I speak English with Khmers because they speak English with me even if I speak to them in Khmer. I do not have to justify myself to you who is so arrogant. The more you speak the less I respect you.

How many black men have you dated?

How many white european men have you dated?

How many non-muslim men have you slept with?

Would you date a jew?
 
So they feel obliged to cut down on their welfare system because the immigrants they bring in to do the dirty work they don't want to do might capitalise on it. Thats not surprising at all. Its how the Brahmins bitch and moan now that the "untouchables" have affirmative action. You never heard a peep from them when they had the notion that Brahmins had the "right" to keep knowledge and hence the best positions to themselves as a sacred "right".

I don't need your respect nor anyone elses. I don't discriminate between people based on where they come from or how they dress or speak or what colour they are or which God they worship. My ex was an areligious Moroccan whose first language was French. He was very white and European, albeit an Arab European. I have several black friends and I never treat them any differently, I have no objections to dating white, black, purple or green men so long as they share my values.

The Khmers wear western clothes, many speak french and english, some (actually quite a few) of the women date, marry and have children with white men.
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Maybe the Europeans can learn from that.
 
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Oh jesus all you ever go on about are the bloody brahmins. We are not discussing bloody india here. And india doesn't have a social welfare system.

I wouldn't want to learn from you, nevermind Europe. I hope you have a happy life where you are and STAY THERE.

You are a presumptuous idiot.

So what about jews sam would you ever date a jewish guy?

I am glad you don't treat your 'black friends' differently than anyone else, I am sure they are so grateful for your inclusiveness and democratic spirit.

Sounds like your morroccan friend wasn't a white european, just a light skinned morrocan.

Yeah Europeans really have to learn how to speak french and english and sport western clothes. Whoopie! Here's to another fruitless waste of discussion time with Sam.
 
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Oh I don't know. You've inspired to go to western countries albeit only for a few years, be very Indian Muslim, date only Muslim men, be very very Islamic in my views etc. Maybe even invest in a hijab or two. I can always declare I have no intention of getting citizenship. :D

I'll even credit you for the inspiration.

So what about jews sam would you ever date a jewish guy?
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I did once. Wasn't very religious and was extremely rude to his parents. Can't stand the type.
 
S.A.M. said:
Oh I don't know. You've inspired to go to western countries albeit only for a few years, be very Indian Muslim, date only Muslim men, be very very Islamic in my views etc. Maybe even invest in a hijab or two. I can always declare I have no intention of getting citizenship. :D

I'll even credit you for the inspiration.
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Honestly Sam I don't think other men would be interested in you.
 
Lucysnow said:
No not muslim girls. You. I mean you're not married right? All liberated and lesbian or just left on the shelf?
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Aww, you're really pissed, eh? :p

Does it matter? Maybe I'm married and adventurous. Maybe I'm trisexual [I'll try anything], maybe I'm a nun with cobwebs between my legs.

Does that change any of the points we are addressing?
 
S.A.M. said:
Aww, you're really pissed, eh? :p

Does it matter? Maybe I'm married and adventurous. Maybe I'm trisexual [I'll try anything], maybe I'm a nun with cobwebs between my legs.

Does that change any of the points we are addressing?
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Pweaaase be pansexual!
 
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