Some logic for both sides...

[NDS]

do you really blame [God] for not wanting us to live in ignorance and blind obedience?

Obeying God blindly and ignorantly is the very thing which the Bible embraces and supports (Abraham-Isaac sacrifice, Mary-Jesus birth sacrifice, disciples blindly casting fish nets, etc.)

The bible supports blind obedience and ignorance, and so does experience. Seeing that there are thousands of religious sects and thousands of different opinions on what God is, whether he exists, or what he requires of us, it seems clear that God has left mankind in ignorance as to some major concepts. Also, he often commands people to do things which they don't understand. Isn't this blind obedience?


Also, Lori_7, through all your interactions and communication with God, can you please explain to me what "sin" is? You said, "God hates sin." You must, then, know what sin is in order to know that God hates it. So... what is sin exactly? We know God's a lady's man and that God is an asshole (or at least not a nice person at all), so what exactly is sin and how can we avoid it so God doesn't torture us?

 

[SnakeLord]

i do. i blame god for everything. it's true...everything is his fault. but that doesn't get you out of making choices.

My 'choice' in this instance is to try and correct all of his mistakes while he will undoubtedly get the credit for it. To quote Twain, (and I think the statement is very pertinent):

The very latest of these blessed triumphs of science is the discovery and identification of the ambuscaded assassin which goes by the name of the hookworm. Its special prey is the barefooted poor. It lies in wait in warm regions and sandy places and digs its way into their unprotected feet.

The hookworm was discovered two or three years ago by a physician, who had been patiently studying its victims for a long time. The disease induced by the hookworm had been doing its evil work here and there in the earth ever since Shem landed on Ararat, but it was never suspected to be a disease at all. The people who had it were merely supposed to be lazy, and were therefore despised and made fun of, when they should have been pitied. The hookworm is a peculiarly sneaking and underhanded invention, and has done its surreptitious work unmolested for ages; but that physician and his helpers will exterminate it now.

God is back of this. He has been thinking about it for six thousand years, and making up his mind. The idea of exterminating the hookworm was his. He came very near doing it before Dr. Charles Wardell Stiles did. But he is in time to get the credit of it. He always is.

I find these things very interesting. 'god's little army' we shall call them. Creatures created by this god for the sole purpose of causing humans the greatest of pain and misery. And yes, as Twain said, he even made many of them 'invisible' just so it would take god's enemy, (science), a longer time to track them down and go about annihilating them. And what I find really amusing is that seemingly the more religious a place is, the worse it gets.

Look at Africa, it has one of the highest percentages of religiosity on earth and the place is one of the most f***** up places on earth. These poor folk can't even find clean water and are literally terrorised by all kinds of the most disgusting 'creations' any entity could think up. Seriously, a fly that lays it's eggs inside you, the larvae of which then proceed to eat you from the inside out. [edit: Note that the bot fly is from South American/Mexican regions, not African - it was simply to make a point]

So ultimately I am an enemy of god, science is an enemy of god. He wanted women to suffer in labour - by making drugs to ease that suffering we are in fact fighting against gods wishes. Etc.

That 'choice' would be one that any decent human being would make if they believed in such an entity.

why does everyone seem to have such a problem with learning and accountability for that knowledge all of a sudden?

Well, would you expect any less if that were the case given this supposed god who wants everything to be fudged up? That is who you claim we are accountable to, and by being a moral, caring individual I'm obviously not going to be one of his chosen.

i don't think there's a way to truly understand the consequences of your actions except to experience them. i mean, you can be told about the effects of all kinds of things, but until you feel those effects, you just don't understand.

I have only be told what it is like to jump off a cliff. I understand it fully well although I have never experienced it.

you have no faith. no, not in god, but in us. in me. speak for yourself snake. i'm going to live eternally. i've got the will, and i'll get the skill.

You're right, I do not have faith. I find it a weak, disgusting attribute to have pride in. Secondly I hope you have fun with that eternal thing and that after 2 gajillion squillion billion gajillion years time you can still find something fun to do.. I personally opt out of it. I just can't see the value in worshipping something forever and ever and ever.

 

[Lori_7]

How are "we" in agreement with God about this law he created? We agreed to nothing.



You're a masochist at heart? I'm just teasing you.



So God basically punished them in order to "help" them? Since God is a role model for parents, should all parents start throwing their children into the fire so they can learn not to touch fire? After all, we can only learn by experience, right?

But, basically what you're saying is that God "made" Adam and Eve sin, so how could that be their choice? Then God punished them for following through with HIS plan. I'm sorry and mean no disrespect to you, but you're right- he is an asshole who punished Adam and Eve and all the rest of the generations for something he wanted them to do. :bugeye:

how are we being punished? and how do you get that god "makes" us do anything? no one makes YOUR decisions for you do they? no, i know that. so are you saying that you never do anything wrong? you never make mistakes? you never suffer negative consequences? you have been brow beaten in the name of christ for so long that all you ever focus on is this imaginery punishment that we innocent little lambs suffer at the hand of god. what a bunch of bs! take a look around at the world you live in. WE DID THIS! and you want to blame god for your actions, for my actions, for all of our actions and choices? it's bs. it is because of his law that we are saved of our own will. we make bad choices and suffer bad consequences. would you rather have good consequences to bad choices? you would rather not have a choice! you want to blame god for not making you some mindless drone without free will, and then blame him for your own actions. forget it. we make choices and we suffer the consequences according to a perfect law and we learn. and i LOVE to learn. you love to bury your head in the sand.

 

[shichimenshyo]

WE DID THIS! and you want to blame god for your actions, for my actions, for all of our actions and choices?

If god is the creator of all that is existence then he is also the creator of choice, and if god already knows what we do before we do it, and he created us knowing exactly what we would do, then was there ever really a choice, and how could everything not be his fault. If god created everything, then everything is his fault.

 

[Lori_7]

The whole knowledge of good and evil thing in the A&E story really doesn't make sense. If God created angels with knowledge of good and evil, then why couldn't he just create humans with this knowledge as well?

that's not what i understand about angels. from what i know about angels they are messengers that serve god in a very distinct and specific purpose, and do nothing else. satan has a very valuable purpose and serves god to perpetuate evil and lies to those who seek them. and people do seek them.

Also, what is the purpose of human existence, assuming God intentionally created us? It basically goes like this:

1. God exists in the beginning.
2. God creates humans.
3. The humans which follow his orders go to heaven, the ones who don't go to hell.
4. The end.

that is in no way what it says in the bible or what i know from my experience with him. you obviously have been brain washed by holier than thou church people too. you do not get to heaven by your acts, nor are you condemned to hell by them either. you are saved by faith in god that is based upon the knowledge of him through experience. god does not condemn anyone to hell, people choose to go and stay in hell. look at the people and their choices on earth and you will see what i'm talking about. it is no different. people love their sin despite the consequences. they ignore them like they ignore him, all the while cursing him for daring to be divine and the creator. people are evil.

What has this accomplished, besides demonstrating that some humans followed orders and figured it out and some didn't? God doesn't need us, so why create us?

it's not about following orders. i don't follow orders. i gave my life to him out of trust and of my own free will and i'm an unruly fuck up. and he loves me...

and you know what? i love being loved for exactly who i am. wouldn't you?

The other thing is this, in the Bible at the end God throws all the bad people and Satan into the Lake of Fire for eternity. Great, so what did that accomplish? What did creating X amount of humans and accepting and rejecting X amount of them into heaven accomplish?

he's given us free will while teaching us the difference between good and evil and thus allowed us the opportunity to live in an eternal paradise. awful huh?

If the Bible and Revelations is true, then when Jesus returns, there is a finite exact amount of humans that will have passed through the earth. Let's say, strictly for hypothetical purposes, that this number is 1,000,000,000. Let's assume that exactly 10% of those are accepted into eternal paradise and exactly 90% are sent to the Lake of Fire to be tortured forever.

What did that accomplish? So 10%, or 100,000,000 human spirits will live with God forever and 900,000,000 won't. Is God better or worse off if, say, 100,000,001 or 100,000,002 people make it to heaven?

it accomplished a perfect eternal human race, that i choose to be a part of.

If God created angels first and then humans to love him and worship him, why, in the Bible, is God suddenly satisifed with the love he gets from X amount of people?

god is satisfied with the love he gets from anyone. do you love god? do you know god? well what are you squawking about then? it's your choice to love him or not. it's your choice to know him or not. he loves you, so blame him?

It's almost like an odds game. God creates 1,000,000,000 people knowing that X percent of them will fail to follow his orders and will be banished to the Lake of Fire and tortured forever. Why create something, if it even has the slightest chance of burning forever? Does God need other people's love so much that he is willing to torture masses of people for eternity in order to get that love? That's a heavy and brutal price to pay from humans seeing that we didn't even choose to exist. God forced us into existence without our permission.

it is NOT about following orders. you are really WAY off base. it has nothing to do with your works. it's a choice you make. and i understand that there's not a not of people out there willing to make that choice. they don't want to have a relationship with god. but i don't understand how they can blame him.

One more thing, if God created humans to love him (he is lonely?) then wouldn't it best serve his interests to give us more than one chance to get it right instead of torturing us for eternity if we don't get it right the first time? Or is God trying to meet a deadline?

well, if you know how long this has been going on, then you're the only one.

and...

what are YOU waiting for?

 

[Lori_7]

If god is the creator of all that is existence then he is also the creator of choice, and if god already knows what we do before we do it, and he created us knowing exactly what we would do, then was there ever really a choice, and how could everything not be his fault. If god created everything, then everything is his fault.

the law is his fault. creation is his fault. the plan is fool proof, but i'm sorry, the choice is ALL YOURS. come on people, how can you argue this?! i live! i'm a human just like you! you're not fooling me! i know that i make my own choices every minute of every day of my life just like you do! for god's sake!

 

[shichimenshyo]

I'm just simply saying that if you god already knows what choice you will make and he created you a specific way then you really dont have a choice. So in a sense god is punishing you for him creating you. WTF?

 

[Lori_7]

You call yourself and asshole, and you still expect to be taken seriously?

And what of other people then - you have made us into people who discuss with an asshole.

So niiiiice of you! :bugeye:

are you trying to tell me that you're never an asshole? is that right?

well then, the difference between you and i is, that i'm honest and you're not.

so maybe that does mean that we can't have a dicussion...that really means anything. i was trying to be funny. and sometimes being an asshole is very warranted and serves a purpose. say if you're defending an innocent child of abuse. if you're telling someone the truth and it hurts, but will help them too.

everybody has a purpose in god. even us assholes. not everyone can be so pristine and goody goody nice nice as you right? even you have a purpose...

 

[Lori_7]

I'm just simply saying that if you god already knows what choice you will make and he created you a specific way then you really dont have a choice. So in a sense god is punishing you for him creating you. WTF?

are you honestly sitting there trying to convince me that you and i don't make choices? wtf back.

 

[shichimenshyo]

are you honestly sitting there trying to convince me that you and i don't make choices? wtf back.

if the out come can already be seen then you have the illusion of choice

 

[Lori_7]

Obeying God blindly and ignorantly is the very thing which the Bible embraces and supports (Abraham-Isaac sacrifice, Mary-Jesus birth sacrifice, disciples blindly casting fish nets, etc.)

The bible supports blind obedience and ignorance, and so does experience. Seeing that there are thousands of religious sects and thousands of different opinions on what God is, whether he exists, or what he requires of us, it seems clear that God has left mankind in ignorance as to some major concepts. Also, he often commands people to do things which they don't understand. Isn't this blind obedience?


Also, Lori_7, through all your interactions and communication with God, can you please explain to me what "sin" is? You said, "God hates sin." You must, then, know what sin is in order to know that God hates it. So... what is sin exactly? We know God's a lady's man and that God is an asshole (or at least not a nice person at all), so what exactly is sin and how can we avoid it so God doesn't torture us?

the bible does not talk about blind obedience and neither do i. the bible talks about people who have a personal relationship with god and/or jesus. it talks about people hearing his voice and actually getting to know him like your or i would get to know anyone. an intimate relationship such as the one that the bible talks about, and the one that i have experienced builds trust, if the one that you're having the relationship with is trustworthy. god and jesus proved to be trustworthy apparently to many people who knew them. i know that i'll trust them with my life. only because i know them. is there anyone that you trust? how did you come to trust them? and trust is the faith that you have in them. do you have faith in anyone? is it blind? no it's not. the problem is that you don't understand that you can actually know god. well, i know god.

 

[Lori_7]

if the out come can already be seen then you have the illusion of choice

i don't agree with that at all. actually, what you're saying completely twists my brain into spasms. if no one interferes with your decision, then you are the one making it...period. it doesn't matter who or when someone else may observe the decision that you choose to make. you are still the one that is making the choice. certainly you understand that observing a decision that is being made is not making the decision don't you? why is this so difficult?

 

[shichimenshyo]

i don't agree with that at all. actually, what you're saying completely twists my brain into spasms. if no one interferes with your decision, then you are the one making it...period. it doesn't matter who or when someone else may observe the decision that you choose to make. you are still the one that is making the choice. certainly you understand that observing a decision that is being made is not making the decision don't you? why is this so difficult?

But if your creator creates you knows already even before you exactly what decision you will make then are you really making a decision? I dont think you are. Also if god already knows what decision you will make then why punish you for it?

 

[Lori_7]

Also, Lori_7, through all your interactions and communication with God, can you please explain to me what "sin" is? You said, "God hates sin." You must, then, know what sin is in order to know that God hates it. So... what is sin exactly? We know God's a lady's man and that God is an asshole (or at least not a nice person at all), so what exactly is sin and how can we avoid it so God doesn't torture us?

oops, forgot a part. i guess god will have to torture me for that. woe is me.

sin is like a birth defect right now for all of us. it's a condition. and it's also an act. but in our case right now, it's a condition that leads us to act. if i'm not mistaken, sin is any transgression of his perfect law. his law is perfect in that if applied, it creates a perfect balance and equilbrium in the universe. it eliminates death. so sin must be anything that causes death in the universe.

 

[Lori_7]

But if your creator creates you knows already even before you exactly what decision you will make then are you really making a decision? I dont think you are. Also if god already knows what decision you will make then why punish you for it?

you don't make decisions? is that really what you want to say here?

god does not punish anyone. there is law. every action has a reaction and it's according to law. if you set yourself on fire, is god punishing you for it?

no, you burn and hurt, and maybe even die because you chose to set yourself on fire, and setting yourself on fire has consequences according to law.

 

[shichimenshyo]

you don't make decisions? is that really what you want to say here?

god does not punish anyone. there is law. every action has a reaction and it's according to law. if you set yourself on fire, is god punishing you for it?

no, you burn and hurt, and maybe even die because you chose to set yourself on fire, and setting yourself on fire has consequences according to law.

Yes, I'm saying that if god exists we really do not make decisions.

So hell is not a punishment?

 

[heart]

how are we being punished? and how do you get that god "makes" us do anything? no one makes YOUR decisions for you do they? no, i know that. so are you saying that you never do anything wrong? you never make mistakes? you never suffer negative consequences? you have been brow beaten in the name of christ for so long that all you ever focus on is this imaginery punishment that we innocent little lambs suffer at the hand of god. what a bunch of bs! take a look around at the world you live in. WE DID THIS! and you want to blame god for your actions, for my actions, for all of our actions and choices? it's bs. it is because of his law that we are saved of our own will. we make bad choices and suffer bad consequences. would you rather have good consequences to bad choices? you would rather not have a choice! you want to blame god for not making you some mindless drone without free will, and then blame him for your own actions. forget it. we make choices and we suffer the consequences according to a perfect law and we learn. and i LOVE to learn. you love to bury your head in the sand.

I'm not blaming the biblical God for anything. I don't believe that a true God would be like the one portrayed in the Bible, but that's just me.

Just to clear things up, when I responded to you I was talking about Adam and Eve and how the Bible says that because they had eaten from the tree of knowledge that man shall surely die, how women would have hard labor, and so on and so on... that this would last throughout the generations. So when I was talking about being punished, I was talking about that.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're saying God set them up to fail, desiring them to fail (according to you), and then punished them for it, when according to you, too, that ...well here, I'll just paste it:

originally posted by lori_7
i do. i blame god for everything. it's true...everything is his fault. but that doesn't get you out of making choices.

When really, God would be the one to blame and he punished Adam and Eve and the generations throughout. I mean really to set them up like that would be like an adult playing chess with a 5 year old. They didn't stand a chance. I was merely pointing out how they really didn't have a choice and it was an asshole thing of him to do. But, I happen to be one of those who thinks nice is a good thing. I know call me crazy!

The other stuff you wrote, about how nobody makes my decisions and something about saying we never do anything wrong, etc... I wasn't implying or saying that at all. I know that I can mess up as much as the next person, that's for sure. All I was talking about was how you said God set them up. Call me stupid but I think if he set them up, they shouldn't be blamed. I guess you see that it's fair though? :shrug:

 

[NDS]

you do not get to heaven by your acts, nor are you condemned to hell by them either. you are saved by faith in god that is based upon the knowledge of him through experience.

Rev 20:13-14
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
NIV

There you have it. You claim to know the Bible, but you seem to have missed a few key verses. God will literally "throw" or violently toss us into the Lake of Fire if we don't DO what he wants.

Had this verse said that God judged us according to our faith, then you may be on to something.

god does not condemn anyone to hell, people choose to go and stay in hell.

Revelation 20:15
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
NIV

People are literally thrown into the Lake of Fire. The people don't choose to go there and stay there. Remember now, Lori, the Lake of Fire isn't like a fun amusement park. People don't wan't to go there.

it's not about following orders. i don't follow orders. i gave my life to him out of trust and of my own free will and i'm an unruly fuck up. and he loves me...

First off, Revelation 20:13-15 above proves this concept wrong.

Secondly, what if God has given humans one order: Have faith in me.

There you go. If we don't follow that one order, we are thrown by the man himself, involuntarily, into the Lake of Fire. Sounds awesome.

Now is that one order, to have faith, a difficult order to follow? Of course it is, otherwise people who are, say, Buddhists, who search for the truth sincerely their whole lives would not come to the conclusion that God doesn't exist.

he's given us free will while teaching us the difference between good and evil and thus allowed us the opportunity to live in an eternal paradise.

Yes, and you forgot to mention the one other option of swimming in a Lake of Fire for eternity. Sounds like fun, ehh? Get your bathing suit ready!

god is satisfied with the love he gets from anyone. do you love god? do you know god? well what are you squawking about then? it's your choice to love him or not. it's your choice to know him or not. he loves you, so blame him?

Ever read anything from the Dalai Lama? The man is very smart and has dedicated his life to meditation, prayer, and seeking the truth of reality (along with many other Buddhists). Through his sincere lifetime of mediatation and knowledge seeking, he has come to the conclusion that God as a person does not exist! And eternal personal spirits/souls don't exist either!

Who should I believe? You, who claims a personal God exists. Or the Dalai Lama and the Buddah who claims the exact opposite. Both of you are sincere in your search for the truth and both have come to completely different conclusions on who God is or if he exists.






Also, you never defined "sin" for me. God hates sin. What is it?

 

[Lori_7]

My 'choice' in this instance is to try and correct all of his mistakes while he will undoubtedly get the credit for it. To quote Twain, (and I think the statement is very pertinent):



I find these things very interesting. 'god's little army' we shall call them. Creatures created by this god for the sole purpose of causing humans the greatest of pain and misery. And yes, as Twain said, he even made many of them 'invisible' just so it would take god's enemy, (science), a longer time to track them down and go about annihilating them. And what I find really amusing is that seemingly the more religious a place is, the worse it gets.

Look at Africa, it has one of the highest percentages of religiosity on earth and the place is one of the most f***** up places on earth. These poor folk can't even find clean water and are literally terrorised by all kinds of the most disgusting 'creations' any entity could think up. Seriously, a fly that lays it's eggs inside you, the larvae of which then proceed to eat you from the inside out. [edit: Note that the bot fly is from South American/Mexican regions, not African - it was simply to make a point]

So ultimately I am an enemy of god, science is an enemy of god. He wanted women to suffer in labour - by making drugs to ease that suffering we are in fact fighting against gods wishes. Etc.

That 'choice' would be one that any decent human being would make if they believed in such an entity.



Well, would you expect any less if that were the case given this supposed god who wants everything to be fudged up? That is who you claim we are accountable to, and by being a moral, caring individual I'm obviously not going to be one of his chosen.



I have only be told what it is like to jump off a cliff. I understand it fully well although I have never experienced it.



You're right, I do not have faith. I find it a weak, disgusting attribute to have pride in. Secondly I hope you have fun with that eternal thing and that after 2 gajillion squillion billion gajillion years time you can still find something fun to do.. I personally opt out of it. I just can't see the value in worshipping something forever and ever and ever.

god isn't a big fan of religion, and you have absolutely no idea how it feels to jump off a cliff unless you do it. i don't suggest such a thing. and i love you.

you don't have to believe me. i don't have pride in my faith. i simply have it.

 

[Lori_7]

Yes, I'm saying that if god exists we really do not make decisions.

So hell is not a punishment?

well i totally don't agree with you. i make decisions all the time. constantly.

no, hell is not a punishment, it is a state of existence that people live in due to their choices. look at the world as it is right now. people's choices make up the state of existence in which we live. do you see the affects of greed, lust, sloth, gluttony, wrath, pride and envy? do you see the affects of love?

people choose the state in which they live collectively. some people love sin.