Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Then I don't understand how you can even begin to know anything about him.
What about 'creation' ? What do you mean by it when you are talking about it ?
Some logic for both sides...
- Thread starter Lori_7
- Start date
Then I don't understand how you can even begin to know anything about him.
What about 'creation' ? What do you mean by it when you are talking about it ?
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Good girl
are you trying to turn me on?
well, it's like trying to define a person. i know god, like i would know anyone; we have a relationship in which we interact. that doesn't mean i can define him entirely, or for all i know, remotely. i know what i have experienced from interacting with him. i could try to explain some of the interactions to you or try to explain how he's treated me...things he's taught me...things he's done to me, but to define him is a very tall order, don't you think? and creation to me is everything really. us, nature, animals, the universe, and the laws that govern it. there is a process that has been uncovered by science. what we know about how "all of this" got here...how it formed...the laws by which it's been created. the more science discovers, the more order and perfection is uncovered, and to me, and to many others, this is astounding, and intruiging, and serves to suggest very strongly, that there is intelligence and purpose in it's design. this to me is secondary. i think that's where my perspective may be different from most. i really have had interactions with the spiritual realm.
there is good...there is evil...that is law. he told them what was true. they made a choice based upon truth. the serpent did not lie to them. they were told that they would KNOW good and evil as god does. so how do you KNOW anything? to experience it. now, in this world and in this state of existence, we have experienced it, so now we KNOW. and not only do i believe us to be better off for it, i see it as absolutely necessary to our evolution, because it gives us the gifts of knowledge, understanding, and free will, that allows our true communion with god. do you really blame him for not wanting us to live in ignorance and blind obedience? is that really the state you would want to spend eternity in? god wants so much more for us, and i believe, for himself.
"it" is so impersonal. keep in mind that whatever gender this "it" is, i interact with "it", so i like to call him "him". it works for me. i don't really dwell on the details to tell you the truth. it's enough just to try and keep up with what is going on in my life because of this interaction. try to understand that this is not an intellectual or theological debate for me. this is real. this is really my life that i have to live everyday, and i take it very seriously. i offered god my life, and he took it, and he turned it upside down. i'm not talking about what i read in a book, or heard someone else say, or something that i pretended to believe to make me feel better or to conform or be part of a group. i've been outcast by what he's done in my life, and i've been transformed, and it hasn't been some joy ride either. if you think that god is some glorified dr. feelgood then think again. god is not nice. and giving up your life to him is not what i thought it might be like when i did it, but i still meant it. i had no idea what i was in store for. rainbows, and puppy dogs, and church on sunday mornings, i don't think so. i still have the marks on my dining room wall where i kicked it repeatedly until i think i broke my toe. i've been frustrated, isolated, and i've been pissed off. think about the stories you know of from the bible. do they seem like "feel good" stories to you? do you think that noah was at ease and happy go lucky when he was building his ark? how about jonah when he was in the belly of a whale? what do you think about what happened to jesus? i have thought many times that i understood why jesus asked god, "why have you forsaken me." but god never did. it just feels that way sometimes. i am so better off for having been through what i've been through. i feel invincible and i know that's for a reason, because i'm sure he has more in store, and i'm prepared. bring it on. i love god. and i am not out here in vain, wishing that someone would say they believe based upon what i testify to. i'm not trying to convince anyone, or convert anyone. i know better. i know that you can not truly believe something unless you know it, and that you can not know it until you experience it for yourself. i'm just here to share and discuss things.
You can't define what you mean by "God" and "creation"?
And with an imprecision like that, you expect to have a discussion? One you even call "logical"?
Moreover, despite an imprecision like that, you dare state that other people who do not believe in "God" and "creation", don't believe because they haven't really wanted to??
You are playing a game of Humpty-Dumpty-Words-mean-whatever-I-want-them-to-mean here.
define your father. define any other human being that you know. how about defining yourself? you can't define something that you don't understand, and it's very difficult, if not impossible, to define a being, even yourself, and i feel like if i were to say that i could define god that would be an arrogant lie. like i said, that doesn't mean i can't describe my interactions with him and what he has shown me about himself through those interactions. please remember i'm not interested in being right, but i am interested in being honest, and if that's not good enough for you, then i'm sorry, but you should question why that is.
But you said that God fudged things. That he, being all knowing...knowing exactly what would make Adam and Eve cave- used that knowledge, created the scene and then blamed them for carrying out what he said not to do. You realize he called what they did a sin, yet used his knowledge of what would make them sin, do so. That's messed up. Pretty much like when God intentionally hardened the pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't let Moses or his people go, all so God could send plagues their way. Sounds to me that God likes to toy with people- and you think this is okay?
Poor God, he must so bored and empty. You see, the gods live forever, that makes them crazy and mean...
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Hey, whatever works for you.. lol
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Ok.. what DO you know about God and how did you acquire that knowledge ?
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
The first question that comes to mind is: why surrender to a God that is really an asshole ?
And the second is: how come you surrendered to something you didn't know anything about ? It's akin to marrying the first stranger that comes by..
Thirtly: where did you get the notion of God from ?
basically, i think that we and god are in agreement no matter what we decide to do because of law, and that learning is a difficult and painful process when it comes to sin. look at what i have been through for example. firstly, i gave my life to him outright, and asked him to use me to help others. and actually in response to people's continual requests out here on sciforums for evidence of him and his interaction with me. now then, i had absolutely no idea what i was asking for circumstantially, but i meant it and he knew it. and what did i do the entire time i was going through it? i bitched, and moaned, and cursed him, and complained about, "how could he do this to me?" i knew all the time that i had asked for it, and was thankful for the opportunity to be used in the way he was using me. now explain that? it was painful but it was well worth it. and now coming out the other end of it, i am stronger than i ever thought possible. i feel invincible. i have learned so much about him, about jesus and about myself. i am so grateful to have been able to have helped people and i have a sense of purpose about my life that i never had before. i have peace, and i am prepared for what i need to do in the future, whatever that is. that is what god is doing for all of us. we can never make the free will choice not to sin if we don't know what sin is or understand why we are choosing not to.
from interacting with him...and when i say that i mean through conversations i've had with him, answered prayers, and what he's done in my life...i know...
he has a good sense of humor
he is profoundly forgiving
he is not surprised
he is not offended
he is not nice
he isn't even remotely interested in being nice
nice = lies
he is all about truth
truth = love
god = love
he will give you what you ask for
you can not fool him
he doesn't come into relationship with you uninvited
he's not a big fan of institutions
he doesn't really give a shit if you cuss, but not to offend
he's not a prude
he will push you to the limit, and keep you through it all
he loves everyone just the same NO MATTER WHAT
he hates the sin but loves the sinner
he does nothing in futility
he doesn't necessarily care if you're comfortable
he is not well represented by our religious institutions
we do not own him
we do not manipulate him
we choose him, or not
and oh yeah, he ALWAYS acts in our best interest, whether we realize that's what he's doing, or not.
Last edited:
well, i'm an asshole. :shrug:
when i surrendered to him, i knew him already. it wasn't something that was done all at once over night. it was a progression, and i learned to trust him.
i got the notion the same way any other middle-class white girl in middle america gets the notion of god..through religion. and i didn't like the notion. that's why i had to find out for myself...and i did.
This thread has degenerated into a bunch of nosensical bull.....ohh wait its a Theism Vs atheism thread
Carry on.
Carry on.
How are "we" in agreement with God about this law he created? We agreed to nothing.
You're a masochist at heart?
I'm just teasing you. So God basically punished them in order to "help" them? Since God is a role model for parents, should all parents start throwing their children into the fire so they can learn not to touch fire? After all, we can only learn by experience, right?
But, basically what you're saying is that God "made" Adam and Eve sin, so how could that be their choice? Then God punished them for following through with HIS plan. I'm sorry and mean no disrespect to you, but you're right- he is an asshole who punished Adam and Eve and all the rest of the generations for something he wanted them to do. :bugeye:
Last edited:
The whole knowledge of good and evil thing in the A&E story really doesn't make sense. If God created angels with knowledge of good and evil, then why couldn't he just create humans with this knowledge as well?
Also, what is the purpose of human existence, assuming God intentionally created us? It basically goes like this:
1. God exists in the beginning.
2. God creates humans.
3. The humans which follow his orders go to heaven, the ones who don't go to hell.
4. The end.
What has this accomplished, besides demonstrating that some humans followed orders and figured it out and some didn't? God doesn't need us, so why create us?
The other thing is this, in the Bible at the end God throws all the bad people and Satan into the Lake of Fire for eternity. Great, so what did that accomplish? What did creating X amount of humans and accepting and rejecting X amount of them into heaven accomplish?
If the Bible and Revelations is true, then when Jesus returns, there is a finite exact amount of humans that will have passed through the earth. Let's say, strictly for hypothetical purposes, that this number is 1,000,000,000. Let's assume that exactly 10% of those are accepted into eternal paradise and exactly 90% are sent to the Lake of Fire to be tortured forever.
What did that accomplish? So 10%, or 100,000,000 human spirits will live with God forever and 900,000,000 won't. Is God better or worse off if, say, 100,000,001 or 100,000,002 people make it to heaven?
If God created angels first and then humans to love him and worship him, why, in the Bible, is God suddenly satisifed with the love he gets from X amount of people?
It's almost like an odds game. God creates 1,000,000,000 people knowing that X percent of them will fail to follow his orders and will be banished to the Lake of Fire and tortured forever. Why create something, if it even has the slightest chance of burning forever? Does God need other people's love so much that he is willing to torture masses of people for eternity in order to get that love? That's a heavy and brutal price to pay from humans seeing that we didn't even choose to exist. God forced us into existence without our permission.
One more thing, if God created humans to love him (he is lonely?) then wouldn't it best serve his interests to give us more than one chance to get it right instead of torturing us for eternity if we don't get it right the first time? Or is God trying to meet a deadline?
Also, what is the purpose of human existence, assuming God intentionally created us? It basically goes like this:
1. God exists in the beginning.
2. God creates humans.
3. The humans which follow his orders go to heaven, the ones who don't go to hell.
4. The end.
What has this accomplished, besides demonstrating that some humans followed orders and figured it out and some didn't? God doesn't need us, so why create us?
The other thing is this, in the Bible at the end God throws all the bad people and Satan into the Lake of Fire for eternity. Great, so what did that accomplish? What did creating X amount of humans and accepting and rejecting X amount of them into heaven accomplish?
If the Bible and Revelations is true, then when Jesus returns, there is a finite exact amount of humans that will have passed through the earth. Let's say, strictly for hypothetical purposes, that this number is 1,000,000,000. Let's assume that exactly 10% of those are accepted into eternal paradise and exactly 90% are sent to the Lake of Fire to be tortured forever.
What did that accomplish? So 10%, or 100,000,000 human spirits will live with God forever and 900,000,000 won't. Is God better or worse off if, say, 100,000,001 or 100,000,002 people make it to heaven?
If God created angels first and then humans to love him and worship him, why, in the Bible, is God suddenly satisifed with the love he gets from X amount of people?
It's almost like an odds game. God creates 1,000,000,000 people knowing that X percent of them will fail to follow his orders and will be banished to the Lake of Fire and tortured forever. Why create something, if it even has the slightest chance of burning forever? Does God need other people's love so much that he is willing to torture masses of people for eternity in order to get that love? That's a heavy and brutal price to pay from humans seeing that we didn't even choose to exist. God forced us into existence without our permission.
One more thing, if God created humans to love him (he is lonely?) then wouldn't it best serve his interests to give us more than one chance to get it right instead of torturing us for eternity if we don't get it right the first time? Or is God trying to meet a deadline?
Last edited:
You call yourself and asshole, and you still expect to be taken seriously?
And what of other people then - you have made us into people who discuss with an asshole.
So niiiiice of you! :bugeye: