Some logic for both sides...

[Lori_7]

I'm not blaming the biblical God for anything. I don't believe that a true God would be like the one portrayed in the Bible, but that's just me.

Just to clear things up, when I responded to you I was talking about Adam and Eve and how the Bible says that because they had eaten from the tree of knowledge that man shall surely die, how women would have hard labor, and so on and so on... that this would last throughout the generations. So when I was talking about being punished, I was talking about that.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you're saying God set them up to fail, desiring them to fail (according to you), and then punished them for it, when according to you, too, that ...well here, I'll just paste it:

When really, God would be the one to blame and he punished Adam and Eve and the generations throughout. I mean really to set them up like that would be like an adult playing chess with a 5 year old. They didn't stand a chance. I was merely pointing out how they really didn't have a choice and it was an asshole thing of him to do. But, I happen to be one of those who thinks nice is a good thing. I know call me crazy!

The other stuff you wrote, about how nobody makes my decisions and something about saying we never do anything wrong, etc... I wasn't implying or saying that at all. I know that I can mess up as much as the next person, that's for sure. All I was talking about was how you said God set them up. Call me stupid but I think if he set them up, they shouldn't be blamed. I guess you see that it's fair though? :shrug:

there is no punishment. we punish ourselves. there is law, and it is perfect, and there are consequences to our actions according to it. and he does not make our choices for us, he simply knows what we will choose before we do, because he does not live within the temporal constraints that we live within.

 

[shichimenshyo]

Do you think that homosexuals go to hell?

 

[Lori_7]

Rev 20:13-14
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
NIV

There you have it. You claim to know the Bible, but you seem to have missed a few key verses. God will literally "throw" or violently toss us into the Lake of Fire if we don't DO what he wants.

Had this verse said that God judged us according to our faith, then you may be on to something.



Revelation 20:15
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
NIV

People are literally thrown into the Lake of Fire. The people don't choose to go there and stay there. Remember now, Lori, the Lake of Fire isn't like a fun amusement park. People don't wan't to go there.




Really? What if God has given humans one order: Have faith in me.

There you go. If we don't follow that one order, we are thrown by the man himself, involuntarily, into the Lake of Fire. Sounds awesome.

Now is that one order, to have faith, a difficult order to follow? Of course it is, otherwise people who are, say, Buddhists, who search for the truth sincerely their whole lives would not come to the conclusion that God doesn't exist.



Yes, and you forgot to mention the one other option of swimming in a Lake of Fire for eternity. Sounds like fun, ehh? Get your bathing suit ready!



Ever read anything from the Dalai Lama? The man is very smart and has dedicated his life to meditation, prayer, and seeking the truth of reality (along with many other Buddhists). Through his sincere lifetime of mediatation and knowledge seeking, he has come to the conclusion that God as a person does not exist! And eternal personal spirits/souls don't exist either!

Who should I believe? You, who claims a personal God exists. Or the Dalai Lama and the Buddah who claims the exact opposite. Both of you are sincere in your search for the truth and both have come to completely different conclusions on who God is or if he exists.






Also, you never defined "sin" for me. God hates sin. What is it?

it's really very simple NDS, do you CHOOSE to live in communion with him in a perfect eternal paradise or not? the choice is yours. that is what you will do and what you do is a result of your faith. and your faith is a result of trust in him, that has been developed within a relationship that you choose or choose not to have with him. quit trying to pass the buck. i've had that relationship.

 

[Lori_7]

Do you think that homosexuals go to hell?

not unless they want to. god loves us all the same. even the retarded hate-filled idiots that take his name in vain and witness falsely against him. grrrr...

 

[NDS]

it's really very simple NDS, do you CHOOSE to live in communion with him in a perfect eternal paradise or not? the choice is yours. that is what you will do and what you do is a result of your faith. and your faith is a result of trust in him, that has been developed within a relationship that you choose or choose not to have with him. quit trying to pass the buck. i've had that relationship.

Right, so just deny the parts of the Bible that don't suit your view.

You claim that if you have faith in God, your actions will show that faith. You also claim that you are an unruly fuckup. So, therefore, your faith must not be too great then?

Again, please define "sin," which God hates.

The Dalai Lama, a great guy, doesn't believe in a personal God. His actions are much better than yours will ever be. Is he going to the Lake of Fire because he doesn't have faith in God and, according to you, is a flase witness?

At times, Lori, you sound like the very religious institutionist/fundamentalists that you are trying to condemn.

 

[Lori_7]

Do you think that homosexuals go to hell?

as much as some people want to think that homosexuals are so different from everybody else, god knows, and i know, that they are not. we are ALL loved.

 

[NDS]

as much as some people want to think that homosexuals are so different from everybody else, god knows, and i know, that they are not. we are ALL loved.

Really? God loves EVERYONE? We are ALL loved?

Does God love people who don't believe he exists? In other words, does God love sinners? Throwing them, against their will, into a gigantic Lake of Fire is not the best way of showing that love. :shrug:

I find it interesting that you claim God hates sin, yet don't know what sin is.

 

[heart]

there is no punishment. we punish ourselves. there is law, and it is perfect, and there are consequences to our actions according to it. and he does not make our choices for us, he simply knows what we will choose before we do, because he does not live within the temporal constraints that we live within.

Well, Lori...you are saying that God set it up, that God is to blame for Adam and Eve having eaten from the tree they were forbidden to, God is to blame that they sinned. You said that you blamed him for everything, right? Because if he is to blame, like you say...then he does punish

Gen
3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

But here's the thing...I also brought up how God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh...all so he wouldn't let Moses and his peeps go. Why did god do this? So he could send out plagues upon Egypt. If those plagues aren't punishment, wtf are they? Remember, he hardened the heart of the Pharaoh in order to get him to do what he wanted. Guess what the Pharaoh didn't have? A choice. Guess what God did that you said he wouldn't do? interfere.

 

[Lori_7]

Right, so just deny the parts of the Bible that don't suit your view.

You claim that if you have faith in God, your actions will show that faith. You also claim that you are an unruly fuckup. So, therefore, your faith must not be too great then?

Again, please define "sin," which God hates.

The Dalai Lama, a great guy, doesn't believe in a personal God. His actions are much better than yours will ever be. Is he going to the Lake of Fire because he doesn't have faith in God and, according to you, is a flase witness?

At times, Lori, you sound like the very religious institutionist/fundamentalists that you are trying to condemn.

i'm not denying anything. i know from my own experience that my decisions, and my choices, are based upon my faith, or my trust, in god. that faith is a result of a relationship that i have with him. i don't know what the dalai lama has experienced, or has not, and i am not to judge as you seem to think that you're fit to do. everyone has a choice in this life...many. i do not condemn institutionalists. i am currently a part of a many. i do not condemn anyone. i do not have the power, and even if i did, would not. god doesn't condemn.

people make choices, and they condemn themselves as a consequence of it.

 

[NDS]

Yet again, the Bible itself shows that God punishes other people for the sins of others, not because of the people's own actions.

Eve sins > entire female population is punished even though they didn't sin
Adam sins > entire male population punished even though they didn't sin

Abraham sins by conceiving Ismael > Entire middle east population condemned for the sins of another

There are many other examples in the OT of people sinning and their descendents suffering.

So people suffer not because of what they did, but because of what someone from a different generation did. And who caused the suffering? God, directly.

That law doesn't sound perfect to me.

 

[Lori_7]

Really? God loves EVERYONE? We are ALL loved?

Does God love people who don't believe he exists? In other words, does God love sinners? Throwing them, against their will, into a gigantic Lake of Fire is not the best way of showing that love. :shrug:

I find it interesting that you claim God hates sin, yet don't know what sin is.

i told you what i think sin is. did you read it? people who choose not to join the rest of us in eternal life, and choose sin and suffering and death instead?

to honor free will in the light of knowledge through experience, is indeed love.

 

[Lori_7]

Yet again, the Bible itself shows that God punishes other people for the sins of others, not because of the people's own actions.

Eve sins > entire female population is punished even though they didn't sin
Adam sins > entire male population punished even though they didn't sin

Abraham sins by conceiving Ismael > Entire middle east population condemned for the sins of another

There are many other examples in the OT of people sinning and their descendents suffering.

So people suffer not because of what they did, but because of what someone from a different generation did. And who caused the suffering? God, directly.

That law doesn't sound perfect to me.

yes, yes, we're all innocent little martyred angels, aren't we? no, i'm not one.

 

[Lori_7]

Well, Lori...you are saying that God set it up, that God is to blame for Adam and Eve having eaten from the tree they were forbidden to, God is to blame that they sinned. You said that you blamed him for everything, right? Because if he is to blame, like you say...then he does punish

Gen
3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
3:18
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

But here's the thing...I also brought up how God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh...all so he wouldn't let Moses and his peeps go. Why did god do this? So he could send out plagues upon Egypt. If those plagues aren't punishment, wtf are they? Remember, he hardened the heart of the Pharaoh in order to get him to do what he wanted. Guess what the Pharaoh didn't have? A choice. Guess what God did that you said he wouldn't do? interfere.

don't ask me why god hardened the heart of some pharoah, who cares? you care because you don't want to know him and you want some lame excuse. listen heart, if you don't want to know him then don't. you don't need a lame excuse. it's your choice. do you feel guilty about it or what? why then are you constantly digging through the bible to find a reason? and you hear him!

and btw, for others who are reading this...i consider heart to be a best friend and we go back for years and share everything with each other. i love her...

and i do not feel punished. i feel priviledged. even though i admit that sometimes, to my flesh, it feels like the worst punishment. dust to dust...it's worth it.

 

[NDS]

i'm not denying anything. that faith is a result of a relationship that i have with him.

God does not condemn. people make choices, and they condemn themselves as a consequence of it.

The Bible says people make choices and God does indeed condemn them to the Lake of Fire based on their actions.

You yourself said that "people" don't have the power to judge/or condemn. Only God does. Then, you claim in the very next sentence that people indeed do condemn themselves. So which is it? Does God condemn us, as the Bible says, or do we condemn ourselves?



Lori, do you agree with this statement:

At the end of days, God will judge everyone based on what they did here on earth. If their actions meet his requirements, he will let them into heaven. If not, he will pick them up and throw them into a giant lake of fire. In other words, he himself will condemn them.

If you do not agree with this statement, then, yes, you are denying the Bible.

i don't know what the dalai lama has experienced, or has not, and i am not to judge as you seem to think that you're fit to do. everyone has a choice in this life...many. i do not condemn institutionalists. i am currently a part of a many. i do not condemn anyone. i do not have the power, and even if i did, would not.

You have stated, "I will live in eternity." You have already judged yourself in this case. So can we, or can we not, judge?

Also, I am not judging anyone. You are the one making the claims of the qualifications for eternal life.

According to you, we need one qualification to have eternal life in paradise:

1. have faith that a personal God exists, and love him

The Dalai Lama doesn't love God, because he doesn't believe he exists. So, then, you indirectly are judging and condemning him to hell for eternity.

 

[heart]

and btw, for others who are reading this...i consider heart to be a best friend and we go back for years and share everything with each other. i love her...

Ah, hell...how can I debate with you now? ditto

don't ask me why god hardened the heart of some pharoah, who cares?

You don't have a clue why I brought that story up? Because you said that God gives us free will, that God doesn't interfere in our lives yet he did both with the Pharoah, therefore I kinda thought it was relevant.

listen heart, if you don't want to know him then don't. you don't need a lame excuse. it's your choice. do you feel guilty about it or what? why then are you constantly digging through the bible to find a reason?

lmao nooooo no no no no I don't dig through the Bible to find a reason. Lori, I was raised in church as well as taught Sunday school. Therefore, I knew the stories, I just don't tend to believe in them and I tell you why as well as discuss what I think about them- I don't sit there and thumb through the Bible to find reasons to hate the Biblical God though lmao I really have better things to do with my time.

 

[NDS]

i told you what i think sin is. did you read it? people who choose not to join the rest of us in eternal life, and choose sin and suffering and death instead?

to honor free will in the light of knowledge through experience, is indeed love.

LOL. my bad. I guess I didn't understand your definition of sin because you defined sin as a certain type of people, and not as a thing in itself.

According to you:

Sin = people who choose not to join the rest of us in eternal life, and choose sin and suffering and death instead

Sorry, but this is not a definition of sin. A sin can't be a person, or "people." People commit "sin." Yes, you have told me the consequence of sinning, which is giving up eternal life, suffering, and death. But you have not told me what exactly sin is, and why sin causes people to lose eternal life, to suffer, and to die.

 

[rjr6]

i was just wondering that earlier...

if there would ever be a state of existence reached, where there was perfect balance. no death, no destruction necessary, in a state of eternal existance.

it seems to be what god is working towards; that is where all of our hope lies.

In the book "survival of the sickest", the author suggests that the high rate of diabetes in our society is being caused by a beneficial evolutionary trait becoming a negative trait because of the success (easy living) of our recent generations. That is an interpretive paraphrase, but I also like the phrase from a Pink Floyd song "can you tell Heaven from Hell?"
Sorry for the ramblings, but is God nudging us towards nirvana with stem cell research? Why in God's green Earth would we need a way to make our bodies last longer? Have I missed your point?

 

[scorpius]

According to you:

Sin = people who choose not to join the rest of us in eternal life, and choose sin and suffering and death instead

SIN=Self Inflicted Nonsense imo,

wish people do something more productive then tripping on some invisible sky dude all the time,imagine how much better this world could be.

 

[triplelite]

SIN=Self Inflicted Nonsense imo,

wish people do something more productive then tripping on some invisible sky dude all the time,imagine how much better this world could be.

lol @ sin

Still, I'm not sure what being 'productive' can lead to. You can say being productive is to go train as a terrorist rather than follow Christianity and then kill more ppl than religion was claimed to have...other productivity is to go invent a super-cure like pennicilin and that keeps the population rising and the Earth can't really sustain it...and long-term, there'll be wars over fresh water, electricity, internet etc...it can be a dangerous thing.

Imagine if everyone in the world was productive. What would actually happen?

And if everyone in the world was Christian, what would happen? Sinning all-time low...black-death virus hits again ^.^

 

[Lori_7]

SIN=Self Inflicted Nonsense imo,

wish people do something more productive then tripping on some invisible sky dude all the time,imagine how much better this world could be.

yeah...all the more time they could spend chasing after money and ass.