So they are burning and looting in Baltimore tonight

[billvon]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...hpModule_99d5f542-86a2-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394

"The prisoner, who is currently in jail, was separated from Gray by a metal partition and could not see him."

But wait! There's a new explanation of how he killed himself:

"I’m hearing that Freddie Gray may have sustained an injury himself while fleeing from police on March 20th, 2015. What I’m hearing is that in order to try to elude police, he jumped from a window, possibly as high as three stories . . ." - Tom Marr, conservative talking head.

Not so fast. Shortly thereafter Marr said there was the "possibility that he died from running into a wall."

So he jumped out of a window and broke his neck, then killed himself by running into a wall, then broke his neck again by banging it against the wall of the van. Quite a talented guy. Can't wait to hear how he then crushed his own larynx after killing himself twice.

 

[Bells]

I don’t believe for a second that the involved Police wanted this to happen.

What makes you say that or believe that?

According to his family and attorney Billy Murphy, when Freddie arrived at the hospital he had three broken vertebrae, his spinal cord was severed 80 percent, his voice box damaged, and his brain was swollen.​

This happened while he was in police custody. These sorts of things do not happen unless someone intends to cause direct harm to someone who is chained up in your custody.

Freddie Gray was healthy and in those minutes where he was placed into police custody after being arrested for apparently running away when the police were nearby (apparently this is a crime in America), to being in a condition where his spine was nearly severed and his voice box was badly damaged and he suffered a brain injury that was severe enough to result in his brain swelling.

Why do you believe the police never wanted this to happen? Okay, let's just say they did not want it to happen to him.

When they stopped the van and pulled him out of the van to attach leg chains, witnesses who filmed and photographed it reported that he was calling for help and seemed to have trouble moving his legs. The police still did not seek medical care for him.

Which begs the question.. Why did the police declare he was arrested without incident when it is clear that something happened to him in their custody that resulted in a severed spine, damaged voice box and brain swelling?

It’s an awful accident that needs to be investigated by the proper authorities.

Which should not be the officers and the district these officers work in. The problem with such incidents is that they are essentially investigated by their fellow officers.

This is not a business situation. The idea that because you pay taxes gives you any right to demand anything from the Police is a serious mistake that can easily get you into trouble with the law.

People expect the Police to not act in such a way that results in unnecessary and violent deaths of people in their custody.

They are(!) concerned about the well-being of citizens. That is their job.

Then they are failing miserably.

Of course there will be exceptions that need to be dealt with, but not by us.

And nor by them.

The problem with the Police force now is that many believe they can do whatever they want and they demand absolute obedience. That is not the role of the police force. And the worst thing is that when the so called exception happens (and this is becoming a weekly event in America), Police Unions and other officers close ranks and attack anyone who dares question their actions. That is not acceptable.

There is something dirty behind that blue wall and they feel they are so above the law that they are killing people in the open, broad daylight sometimes and they are getting away with it. Where these so called exceptions were rare in the past, they are now a normal occurrence and they happen often. The "us" you so decry deserve answers and the victims deserve justice.

Just because they are police officers does not mean they can do whatever they want and be above the law.

Freddie Gray was killed because of the absolute and deliberate negligence of the officers who arrested him. Whether he was beaten or not, no one knows, but there are no reports that they were driving at speeds that could result in an almost severed spine, brain swelling and a damaged voice box. Such injuries are often seen in car accidents. That paddy wagon was not in an accident. So something happened to that man in their custody.

 

[HarryT]

Yes, if Mr. Grey had acted differently. But he didn't'. People are not all the same and police forces frequently encounter noncompliant people so they ought to know how to respond to them without the unnecessary loss of life. Policemen, especially large city policemen, are well paid professionals. They need to act like professionals.

Yes, agreed. However: even professionals have emotions and make mistakes. They have to deal with lots of violent and disrespectful people and you don’t hear in the news when everything goes fine.

What makes you say that or believe that?

I am just assuming police people are not deranged morons. I feel to presume otherwise is being paranoid, presumptuous and disrespectful to the police force. Of course there will be exceptions that have to be dealt with. If you think you can do a better job than you join the police? These are normal people just like you and me that are trying to do their best. Like I said above: They have to deal with lots of violent and disrespectful people and you don’t hear in the news when everything goes fine.

Freddie Gray was killed because of the absolute and deliberate negligence of the officers who arrested him.

That is a very bold statement. You can’t know this. Negligent? Could be. Deliberate? Don’t believe it for a second. Still, it could be deliberate yes, but then that policeman is a deranged moron and I must assume those are filtered out during police training. In any case: this is no excuse to start rioting and/or fighting with the police over.

 

[Bells]

Yes, agreed. However: even professionals have emotions and make mistakes. They have to deal with lots of violent and disrespectful people and you don’t hear in the news when everything goes fine.

If they are emotional and it makes them prone to making mistakes, then perhaps they need to change professions.

I am just assuming police people are not deranged morons.

Why?

It isn't the deranged morons we need to worry about. It is the sociopaths who believe they can do whatever they want and because they have a badge, nothing can happen to them, that people need to worry about.

I feel to presume otherwise is being paranoid, presumptuous and disrespectful to the police force.

Respect is earned. When a police force becomes nothing more than a blue wall that becomes a mere mouthpiece of support for officers who clearly do wrong, leading to deaths of unarmed people, and go on revenue raising schemes which target people unfairly and unjustly, then they will not get respect from the wider community.

Of course there will be exceptions that have to be dealt with.

The problem here is that the system itself has become corrupt.

If you think you can do a better job than you join the police?

I have several family members who are and were police officers and I have worked closely with police in a professional capacity for a very long time. What we are seeing in America today is a system whereby police think they are above the law and a force which is only concerned in defending their own at all cost, even when one of their own commits illegal acts which result in people dying.

These are normal people just like you and me that are trying to do their best.

No, they are not. Because normal people like me do not think it is acceptable to beat or shoot people to death because I am in a position of authority.

Like I said above: They have to deal with lots of violent and disrespectful people and you don’t hear in the news when everything goes fine.

That is hardly an excuse.

That is a very bold statement. You can’t know this. Negligent? Could be. Deliberate? Don’t believe it for a second. Still, it could be deliberate yes, but then that policeman is a deranged moron and I must assume those are filtered out during police training.

Well, they are either negligent or cold blooded killers or grossly incompetent. Which do you think is a better description at this point in time? Because it is impossible for someone to smash in their own larynx and then nearly sever their spinal cord by themselves and injure their brain enough so that it swells, with their hands tied behind their backs and their legs chained in the back of a paddy wagon moving at normal speeds.

In any case: this is no excuse to start rioting and/or fighting with the police over.

I don't know. What do you think should have precedence or have more importance at the moment? Some burnt buildings and looting? Or a guy with a severed spine, which he got while secured in police custody?

It surprises me that people are more intent on being disgusted by the people protesting and rioting than they are about what actually happened to Freddie Gray and all the others who came before him, in police killings that are now just about occurring on a weekly basis. If you want the rioting to stop, then perhaps it is time to address the cause of the rioting. What made those people angry? The fact that 6 police officers are somehow involved in the death of an unarmed and restrained man in their custody, who are all on paid leave while all of this trouble blows over, and the fact that the police force appear to have bungled the investigation by failing to obtain the footage from the many CCTV cameras that filmed the police while Gray was in their custody? Or the fact that the police force appear to be doing their utmost to defend the 6 police involved in this? I could go on with this list.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I enjoyed Jon Stewart's remarks on the situation last night.

"The city's reaction to the chaos was to close the schools. Yes indeed, nothing assures public safety better than twenty thousand teenagers with nothing to do."

"We're spending hundreds of millions of dollars to rebuild Afghanistan. And we can't give a little bit to Baltimore?"

I live in the Baltimore suburbs outside the city limits so these people are my neighbors. (Distant neighbors, downtown is nine miles from here.) The city began to decay in the 1970s, when America's manufacturing economy started moving offshore where labor is cheaper. The city lost half of its population, and of course the ones who stayed were the ones who couldn't find jobs in an economy they couldn't understand. Today it has a thriving software industry, but people who flunked out of high school (or simply dropped out) can't program computers.

Maryland is the most reliably Democratic state in the country, and its social programs are as magnificent as its tax rates are astronomical. But some problems can't be solved by throwing money at them.

Even here in progressive Maryland, a black drug user is eight times as likely to be in prison as a white drug user--even though every study shows that Afro- and Euro-Americans use drugs at almost exactly the same rate and white folks actually smoke a whole lot MORE marijuana. (Which probably explains why pot is the only popular drug that is rapidly being decriminalized.) This inexorably leads to a shortage of male role models in the black community, as well as a population of adult women who are so overworked that they simply don't have enough time to take care of their own children.

Slavery began in America 400 years ago. We're still paying the price.

 

[HarryT]

Respect is earned…

Yes, agreed. The difference here is that even if you don’t have respect the law demands you have to show respect in the sense that you follow orders and cooperate.

It surprises me that people are more intent on being disgusted by the people protesting and rioting than they are about what actually happened to Freddie Gray and all the others who came before him

If you think this of me, you misunderstand me.

in police killings.

The public in general including you and me are neither qualified nor authorized to make such conclusions. And even if those conclusions are true nobody is allowed to start rioting.
People died: yes. It’s awful: yes. If the Police is to blame they have to be prosecuted by those that are qualified and authorized.

 

[Photizo]

So he jumped out of a window and broke his neck, then killed himself by running into a wall, then broke his neck again by banging it against the wall of the van. Quite a talented guy. Can't wait to hear how he then crushed his own larynx after killing himself twice.

 

[joepistole]

I enjoyed Jon Stewart's remarks on the situation last night.

"The city's reaction to the chaos was to close the schools. Yes indeed, nothing assures public safety better than twenty thousand teenagers with nothing to do."

"We're spending hundreds of millions of dollars to rebuild Afghanistan. And we can't give a little bit to Baltimore?"

I live in the Baltimore suburbs outside the city limits so these people are my neighbors. (Distant neighbors, downtown is nine miles from here.) The city began to decay in the 1970s, when America's manufacturing economy started moving offshore where labor is cheaper. The city lost half of its population, and of course the ones who stayed were the ones who couldn't find jobs in an economy they couldn't understand. Today it has a thriving software industry, but people who flunked out of high school (or simply dropped out) can't program computers.

Maryland is the most reliably Democratic state in the country, and its social programs are as magnificent as its tax rates are astronomical. But some problems can't be solved by throwing money at them.

Even here in progressive Maryland, a black drug user is eight times as likely to be in prison as a white drug user--even though every study shows that Afro- and Euro-Americans use drugs at almost exactly the same rate and white folks actually smoke a whole lot MORE marijuana. (Which probably explains why pot is the only popular drug that is rapidly being decriminalized.) This inexorably leads to a shortage of male role models in the black community, as well as a population of adult women who are so overworked that they simply don't have enough time to take care of their own children.

Slavery began in America 400 years ago. We're still paying the price.

I agree with that. The US is in dire of rebuilding its infrastructure. Spending money rebuilding our electrical and transportation systems would go along way to solving our problems with inner city unemployment while improving our global competitiveness. You don't need to be an Einstein or a high school diploma to pour concrete. Democrats have been pushing for infrastructure projects, but haven't achieved much traction. And with Republican control of Congress, infrastructure improvement isn't in the foreseeable future.

 

[billvon]

Still, it could be deliberate yes, but then that policeman is a deranged moron and I must assume those are filtered out during police training.

If he was filtered out, how could he have been present at his arrest?
There is no excuse for the murder of Freddie Gray. There is no excuse for violence of rioters. If the former continues, so will the latter.

I am just assuming police people are not deranged morons.

Unfortunately we have several examples of how some police are, in fact, deranged morons - murderers, rapists and con men. Most police are, of course, good people, and are a credit to their uniform. All too often, though, those good people turn a blind eye to a colleague who shows the signs of not being as rational and as intelligent as they should be. That has to change.

 

[Photizo]

There is no excuse for the murder of Freddie Gray. There is no excuse for violence of rioters. If the former continues, so will the latter.

What... rushing to judgement? Goading the ignorant and emotionally unstable with lies and half truths? There's no excuse for that. It will be on account of that this place goes down the tubes. They are pushing for that very thing. No other explanation suffices for the insanity playing out.

 

[billvon]

What... rushing to judgement?

If a man showed up with a broken neck and a crushed trachea, and the coroner was told it was the result of a scuffle, there would be a clear suspicion of foul play. But because they were cops, "maybe he jumped out a window" "maybe he ran into a wall" "maybe he broke his own neck when handcuffed in the back of the van." That has to end.

 

[Photizo]

If a man showed up with a broken neck and a crushed trachea, and the coroner was told it was the result of a scuffle, there would be a clear suspicion of foul play. But because they were cops, "maybe he jumped out a window" "maybe he ran into a wall" "maybe he broke his own neck when handcuffed in the back of the van." That has to end.

Your choice/assessment of "what has to end" is symptomatic of what ails this place. What's going to end is the obscenity that is the US...it's going to collapse in upon itself from the weight of its own corruption. The signs are everywhere.

 

[spidergoat]

Your choice/assessment of "what has to end" is symptomatic of what ails this place. What's going to end is the obscenity that is the US...it's going to collapse in upon itself from the weight of its own corruption. The signs are everywhere.

Duh, just like every other place dependent on cheap oil and cheap credit.

 

[spidergoat]

What... rushing to judgement? Goading the ignorant and emotionally unstable with lies and half truths? There's no excuse for that. It will be on account of that this place goes down the tubes. They are pushing for that very thing. No other explanation suffices for the insanity playing out.

If you think police brutality is a lie, then you are the ignorant one.

 

[billvon]

Your choice/assessment of "what has to end" is symptomatic of what ails this place. What's going to end is the obscenity that is the US...

Yep. Been hearing that for 40 years or so.

 

[youreyes]

notice the double US standards:

Kiev protests: Ukranians want freedom and democracy in their country
Baltimore/Ferguson protests: looters and robbers are destroying cars and cities

LOL

 

[iceaura]

As a citizen you have only one responsibility: follow orders of Police. No matter what.

Even soldiers in the military have more responsibility than that, when faced with illegal orders or bad, self-serving command.

I will certainly attend to requests by police, as a citizen should - even when put in the imperative tense - but as a citizen I'm not in some kind of chain of command with the police at the top.

 

[joepistole]

notice the double US standards:

Kiev protests: Ukranians want freedom and democracy in their country
Baltimore/Ferguson protests: looters and robbers are destroying cars and cities

LOL

Yeah, LOL. Now if you only understood the differences.

 

[youreyes]

Yeah, LOL. Now if you only understood the differences.

the difference is that

Kiev protests were sponsored by US and NATO countries
and
Baltimore/Ferguson protests are actual people protesting because they can live in a country that is a lie anymore.

 

[joepistole]

the difference is that

Kiev protests were sponsored by US and NATO countries

EXCEPT, THE WEREN'T. And you have no evidence they were. You are just mindlessly repeating what Mother Putin has told you.

and
Baltimore/Ferguson protests are actual people protesting because they can live in a country that is a lie anymore.

Baltimore and Ferguson people were protesting perceived injustices. It's something that occurs in free countries. Given, you are Russian, I can understand why you might not be able to understand that concept. People in the USA have a very long history of protesting. The USA was born out of protest and civil disobedience. Being a Russian, you might not be aware of the Boston Tea Party or the role civil protest plays in our society. The USA has a long tradition of civil protest. Unlike you Mother Russia, the USA doesn't gun down dissidents on the street or poison dissidents with radioactive and other poisons or blow up apartment buildings killing innocents in order to advance an ideological cause or one man's political ambitions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party