"Impaired" is not "blocked" that rarely happens with neck trauma, even so severe you can not speak.
So they are burning and looting in Baltimore tonight
- Thread starter cosmictraveler
- Start date
Mr. Grey did resist. But at the time he was placed into the paddy wagon he appeared to be in good shape.
Unfortunately BillyT, impaired is blocked. A blockage can be complete or partial. Either way, it is an impairment.
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HarryT
Registered Member
It seems to me people are forgetting that the police are human and humans make mistakes. The law demands you give respect to the Police and follow their orders. If you don’t do that you are for the most part responsible for the consequences. Look, it’s obvious that the Police made some horrible and unacceptable mistakes here. But the point is that if you make it difficult for them or get them frightened then a mistake by the Police can cost you your life. Police people have a family and a life also that they want to go back to. They put their life on the line to keep society safe. When thing like this happen the involved Police are a victim also.
The fact that so many people are rioting now is evidence there is something fundamentally wrong here. It is nothing less than egotistical to think for a second you have the right to even speak up to the Police, let alone to riot. That just not the way it works in a civilized society. Okay, you can be very mad about what happened, but if you take the law into your own hand you need to be locked up. No matter what the Police did, or did not do. You follow orders and let the lawyers sort it out afterwards that is your obligation, no matter what. Granted, there still is a racism issue in the US that is serious. But if you start making a big thing about it every chance you get you are also part of the problem yourselves.
The fact that so many people are rioting now is evidence there is something fundamentally wrong here. It is nothing less than egotistical to think for a second you have the right to even speak up to the Police, let alone to riot. That just not the way it works in a civilized society. Okay, you can be very mad about what happened, but if you take the law into your own hand you need to be locked up. No matter what the Police did, or did not do. You follow orders and let the lawyers sort it out afterwards that is your obligation, no matter what. Granted, there still is a racism issue in the US that is serious. But if you start making a big thing about it every chance you get you are also part of the problem yourselves.
I'd say this is likely more than a casual mistake. It took a lot of violence to nearly severe Mr. Grey's spinal cord. A severed spinal cord, if it were high enough on the spinal column, could easily cause Mr. Grey to lose the ability to breath.
I'd agree that there are some real pigs out there BUT there are many others that are not. Let us not try to believe that all police are the same for they are not and most of them try to do the best they can. You only hear about a few percentage of the overall police force when one of them does something wrong but very rarely hear about them doing good which most of them do. It is difficult to figure which are the pigs and who are there to help sometimes because they don't show who they really are until its to late.
Tonight is what they should have done last night.
actually its coming out now that the police themselves sparked the rioting by trapping a bunch of teenagers in the area who were nervous about about what was happening( a random twitter feed mentioned having a "purge") and than trapping said teenagers there by shutting down public transporation. the police than started acting aggressively toward said kids. oh and the alleged gang alliance to kill cops never happened those gangs were out there trying to stop the violence.
That's fine - as long as you give the same latitude to rioters. In other words, if police go into a riot, then they also for the most part are responsible for any injuries or deaths among their own ranks.
Again, true for many of the rioters as well. Most did nothing wrong - and just want to go home to their families afterwards. They are merely victims.
You absolutely have the right to speak up to police. They are public servants, not dictators.
A big part of the reason that blacks have rights at all is that blacks "made a big thing about it every chance they got." If Rosa Parks had just obeyed the law and meekly gone to the back of the bus with all the other blacks as she was ordered to do, those rights would have been longer in coming.
Both sides have the right to protest as vocally as they like, and they both have the right to disobey laws that they feel are unjust. They both (sometimes) have to deal with the consequences of their own actions.
HarryT
Registered Member
Seems logical at first glance but I don’t agree at all. It is the job of the Police to keep the order. So any injuries are on the rioters per definition. Ofcourse, Police needs to be held accountable also and need to be trained and capable to handle these situations as best as possible. But that is not your responsibility as a citizen to do something about this. As a citizen you have only one responsibility: follow orders of Police. No matter what.
I understand what you are saying, but again I don’t agree. Just by being at (or near) the location of a riot you are hindering Police to do their job by being there. So staying there is “doing something wrong”. Get the h. out of there as soon as possible when rioting starts. That may not always be possible and you may get caught in the middle of something. But you must keep calm and follow orders and chances are you will be fine.
Always and only in a respectful way. Not only because as a citizen you are subordinate per definition to the Police (that’s the law., like it or not) but also because you are a well mannered person.
Correct, but again: It is not your job as a citizen to do solve this by taking justice in your own hands. If you do, you need to be locked up. That’s the law.
Okay, yes. There was a time this was needed. Times have changed now however. You have to deal with racists in a more clever way and let those responsible handle it. A racist or a racist reaction is per definition a sign of lack of intelligence or education on the racists part. The worst thing you can do is to lower yourself to their level and start getting all emotional about it. That only keeps everything at the emotional level and is counterproductive to solving the problem in the long term.
Yes, vocally. But also and always: respectfully.
I cannot begin to say just how fundamentally wrong I think you are here. First of all, there are no unjust laws involved here. What happened here is that the Police made some (horrible) mistakes. To think that this, or anything else, would give you the right to disobey any law is just fundamentally wrong in many ways. A citizen must obey the law and those that have been put in place as your superior(!) by law. In this case the Police. If you do otherwise, you are (part of) the problem.
Of course, this is a no brainer.
How would you feel if you dropped your kid off at the babysitter, and when you came to pick them up they had fractured vertebrae and were in a coma? Would your response be 'LOL, oh well, s**t happens. You have a family, and I'm sure you feel bad about the whole thing.' Somehow I don't think you would be so understanding.
In my mind, this is a black and white scenario. As a poster has already pointed out, Gray was in their custody. It follows logically that when you are in someone's custody, you are under their authority, and therefore they are responsible for you well-being. When those cuffs go on and you are confined to the back of a police van, you are completely helpless. Your well-being is entirely dependent on the officers who have arrested you. They control where you walk, what you eat, what you drink, who you talk to, what medication you have access to, you name it. If they wanted to, they could pin you down and stick a baton up your ass, and there would be absolutely nothing you could do to stop it.
When a suspect is under police care, every reasonable measure should be taken to ensure they aren't injured. If they slip on a step, that's the police who are at fault. If they hang themselves while in the cell, that's the police who are at fault. If they are bashed or raped by their cell-mate, that's the police who are at fault. If they suffer because they don't have access to their medications, that's the police who are at fault.
Gray was taken into custody, and sometime during his custody he acquired fatal injuries. There is *no* excuse. *None*. If the police holding him in custody didn't take all reasonable measures to ensure his well-being, then in my mind they are (at best) guilty of manslaughter. They need to be held accountable.
I personally know several police officers who are fantastic. They are a credit to their profession (yes, I see policing as a profession), and the society they serve and protect. I also know some substandard police officers. And let me tell you, nothing hurts the police force more than cops who don't behave like professionals. They unfairly tarnish upstanding officers, and turn the public against police members who joined because they wanted to bring about positive change.
I am a professional (not in law enforcement), and occasionally I see professional courtesy taken to far, where a colleagues errors or negligence are rationalised away, and there is more concern about protecting the professional rather than the consumer. I find this patently absurd, because at the end of the day, it is the *consumer* who puts food on my table. Without the consumer, there would be absolutely no need for my services. And it is the consumer who places their trust in me.
You don't like citizens 'talking up' to police? Well guess what. It's the taxpayers (ie. citizens') money who keeps them employed. So maybe the police should be more concerned about the well-being of citizens, rather than covering each others asses.
HarryT
Registered Member
Agreed, but that is not my point. I don’t believe for a second that the involved Police wanted this to happen. It’s their job to restrain a person that is not behaving. If Mr. Grey would not have struggled this would not have happened. It’s an awful accident that needs to be investigated by the proper authorities of course. We as citizens can have our opinions that we are allowed to express. My point is that we have no right to anything more than that.
If think I may lose control over my emotions as many people would. My point is that in that case it is the job of the Police to restrain me. That may get very violent and I may get killed. In that case it is not per definition the fault of the Police. And surely no reason to start rioting over.
You are assuming a lot of things: I don’t believe for a second that the involved Police wanted this to happen. It’s an awful accident that needs to be investigated by the proper authorities.
This is not a business situation. The idea that because you pay taxes gives you any right to demand anything from the Police is a serious mistake that can easily get you into trouble with the law.
They are(!) concerned about the well-being of citizens. That is their job. Of course there will be exceptions that need to be dealt with, but not by us.
How Gray behaved during his arrest is no excuse for the police showing negligence after his arrest. If he resisted arrest and was injured while being restrained, that would be a grey area which would require further investigation. However, it's clear that further injuries occurred after he was detained. The police department has admitted that he wasn't appropriately strapped in after they put him in the back of the van, which is tantamount to breaking department policy. Coincidentally, that department policy which was put in place to prevent injuries occurring to people detained.
So you agree that the police officers who detained Gray are responsible the injuries sustained while he was in their custody. Good.
Neither do I. One can be criminally negligent and not have intended harm.
Quite the contrary. The fact that it is the citizens who keep police officers employed gives them every right to hold these public servants to a certain level of professionalism. Society gives the police a tremendous amount of power. One of these privileges is to detain suspects. That privilege comes with the caveat that they also owe said suspect a duty of care.
The entire problem that occurred was due to stereo typing. The facts were, a few cops injured a citizen, who was not a clean model citizen, but one with at least 25 previous arrests since age 17. The irrational stereo type, blamed an entire police force, with an entire group of citizens feeling personally violated, even though neither is real.
There is no cause and effect for this extrapolation, in science, beyond an irrational emotional empathy induction. The analogy is if you insult me, then all my friends will also take it personally, and they will be wiling to assault any of your friends, even if he or she was not there at the time. This makes little sense. Liberals fall for this scam all the time. In this case, professional protestors, paid by democratic party, were at Baltimore getting the crowd going with the stereotype approach. It was not about maintain clarity of the facts. Those who funded the paid protestors, should be subject to civil law suits, for all property lost and the injuries that were suffered. Paid protestors were paid to incite stereotype irrationality.
The ideas of self reliance and character is about individual cause and effect, and not group stereo-types. It is about paying for thing you have done in reality. It is not about making the innocent pay to incite stereotype irrationality.
The quota system approach, was not about the cause and effect of actual blame and compensation, between science based victims who suffered and the people who did the wrong. Rather it was blame and compensation based on stereotypes, even if you did nothing of the sorts or was never a real victim. This same scam is now leading to the justification for violence and crime based no an irrational extrapolation. Will those who paid the professional protestors, who incited the violence, via the stereo type, be held accountable or will they escape using with a stereo type, that will appeal to the morons of liberalism?
There is no cause and effect for this extrapolation, in science, beyond an irrational emotional empathy induction. The analogy is if you insult me, then all my friends will also take it personally, and they will be wiling to assault any of your friends, even if he or she was not there at the time. This makes little sense. Liberals fall for this scam all the time. In this case, professional protestors, paid by democratic party, were at Baltimore getting the crowd going with the stereotype approach. It was not about maintain clarity of the facts. Those who funded the paid protestors, should be subject to civil law suits, for all property lost and the injuries that were suffered. Paid protestors were paid to incite stereotype irrationality.
The ideas of self reliance and character is about individual cause and effect, and not group stereo-types. It is about paying for thing you have done in reality. It is not about making the innocent pay to incite stereotype irrationality.
The quota system approach, was not about the cause and effect of actual blame and compensation, between science based victims who suffered and the people who did the wrong. Rather it was blame and compensation based on stereotypes, even if you did nothing of the sorts or was never a real victim. This same scam is now leading to the justification for violence and crime based no an irrational extrapolation. Will those who paid the professional protestors, who incited the violence, via the stereo type, be held accountable or will they escape using with a stereo type, that will appeal to the morons of liberalism?
“Say what you want but you NEVER say it with violence!”
― Gerard Way
“I don't know about you, but I only have one life, and I don't want to spend it in a sewer of injustice.”
― Wallace Shawn
― Gerard Way
“I don't know about you, but I only have one life, and I don't want to spend it in a sewer of injustice.”
― Wallace Shawn
Yes, if Mr. Grey had acted differently. But he didn't'. People are not all the same and police forces frequently encounter noncompliant people so they ought to know how to respond to them without the unnecessary loss of life. Policemen, especially large city policemen, are well paid professionals. They need to act like professionals.
If you have separate rules for the police and the general public you are starting down the road to a police state, where the police are untouchable judges, juries and executioners.
As a citizen it is your DUTY to do something about situations that you feel are unjust.
So the laws supporting free speech are suspended as soon as any violence starts? A police "protester" throwing a rock through a window can be used to shut down any protest, anywhere? Not a good way of doing things.
Police are shooting unarmed black men in the back and then planting evidence to cover it up. Police are frisking black men, handcuffing them, putting them in the back of a locked squad car, then "discovering" that they "shot themselves." Police are arresting black men and then "discovering" that somehow their necks got broken and their throats crushed.
Want to stop the rioting? Stop the murder of blacks by police. Until then, the violence is, in part, the fault of the police - and they will have to live with the consequences of their actions.
And what do you do when those responsible cover it up, and will not be held accountable?
Here's a question for you. We have all seen that many murders would have gone unreported (or described as "he was resisting arrest" or "he just beat himself to death" or "it must have been a bump in the road") without some nearby citizen videoing the event. Let's see you observe four policemen beating a black man to death. He is unconscious and they are taking turns kicking him in the face as hard as they can. You take out your phone and start taking video. A cop runs over to you and says "stop recording and give me that phone NOW!" There is a fence between you and him; you will be able to get away.
Do you submit to him? Or do you walk away and upload the video to a safer place?
I don't know about the "good cop" mystique. It's possible that some are - I think I know one. But all my interactions with them illustrate them to be tiny-minded fascists. They, too, like other people, are just interested in selling a product, which in this case is "justice" or, more accurately, "law". They have the means and will to sell that product quite ruthlessly. They have done me no good that I know of and have certainly tried to inflict plenty of evil.
When our restaurant was broken into five, six times, they caught no one. They searched for no one. But they certainly did like our free coffee. I think after the sixth break-in the old man told them to bugger off. I didn't understand at the time - weren't cops the good guys? The TV made them seem so. But they couldn't make a sale, so off they went.
When our van was broken into, the cop on the end of the phone line decided to try to accuse me of having done it. The criminal was caught, you see, on videocamera. He wore glasses. I wear glasses. The investigating copper was happy to point this out in very dramatically revealing fashion. It was the glasses, you see. That was the key to the sale. When I pointed out the general inconsistencies, the copper got very defensive. Didn't I know that it was a suspicious coincidence, that we both wore glasses? Of course. Never mind that he was about 5'2" and blonde, whereas I am 6'5" and dark-haired. He couldn't make the sale. I told him so. Then I told him that we didn't need any more of his kind of help. No sale there.
When our car was broken into, the first cop that showed up was polite and helpful. She was most pleasant. So that makes two cops that seem okay. The second was a little Napoleon. Why didn't I know my own mileage in the car? Couldn't I tell whether or not it had been used for a joyride? No, I said. With the ignition switch sitting on the passenger seat, it was a little hard to turn the vehicle on and check the mileage which I wouldn't have known specifically anyway. But his tone was the same: prove to me you didn't do it yourself. Apparently my own vehicle being broken into was suspicious enough to possibly implicate me in the mass theft of 20-30 other cars that night. No sale to be had. He grumbled and went away.
Another time, the neighbour's alarm went off. The cops came - a pack of five, because, you know. One knocked on the door; the dog in their yard was barking. I offered: would you like me to go put the dog away so you can go in? She's probably chained up anyway, and while she barks, she's not really that bad. The cop on the shoulder radio to Alpha Base or wherever the other end of the waxed string connected to says into his mic "Huh? What? No, that's just the neighbour, trying to goad me into going into a yard with a dangerous dog." I shut the door in his face - this fucking little flatfoot, implying that I was trying to get him hurt. Why don't you do something really brave for your country, you pussy? I should have said. Join up. Be a soldier. Be a real man. But I didn't. I was a soldier. So what's his problem? Jelly legs? Yellow stripe? Cowards.
So no, I don't buy the hero cop crap. When I see a cop car, I feel one thing: apprehension. No heroes there, just clever sociopaths.
And I'm white. I can only imagine what the cops might do to someone who wasn't. And now, because of their scumbags and bullies, innocent people must suffer. Because they can't police themselves. What a fucking joke.
When our restaurant was broken into five, six times, they caught no one. They searched for no one. But they certainly did like our free coffee. I think after the sixth break-in the old man told them to bugger off. I didn't understand at the time - weren't cops the good guys? The TV made them seem so. But they couldn't make a sale, so off they went.
When our van was broken into, the cop on the end of the phone line decided to try to accuse me of having done it. The criminal was caught, you see, on videocamera. He wore glasses. I wear glasses. The investigating copper was happy to point this out in very dramatically revealing fashion. It was the glasses, you see. That was the key to the sale. When I pointed out the general inconsistencies, the copper got very defensive. Didn't I know that it was a suspicious coincidence, that we both wore glasses? Of course. Never mind that he was about 5'2" and blonde, whereas I am 6'5" and dark-haired. He couldn't make the sale. I told him so. Then I told him that we didn't need any more of his kind of help. No sale there.
When our car was broken into, the first cop that showed up was polite and helpful. She was most pleasant. So that makes two cops that seem okay. The second was a little Napoleon. Why didn't I know my own mileage in the car? Couldn't I tell whether or not it had been used for a joyride? No, I said. With the ignition switch sitting on the passenger seat, it was a little hard to turn the vehicle on and check the mileage which I wouldn't have known specifically anyway. But his tone was the same: prove to me you didn't do it yourself. Apparently my own vehicle being broken into was suspicious enough to possibly implicate me in the mass theft of 20-30 other cars that night. No sale to be had. He grumbled and went away.
Another time, the neighbour's alarm went off. The cops came - a pack of five, because, you know. One knocked on the door; the dog in their yard was barking. I offered: would you like me to go put the dog away so you can go in? She's probably chained up anyway, and while she barks, she's not really that bad. The cop on the shoulder radio to Alpha Base or wherever the other end of the waxed string connected to says into his mic "Huh? What? No, that's just the neighbour, trying to goad me into going into a yard with a dangerous dog." I shut the door in his face - this fucking little flatfoot, implying that I was trying to get him hurt. Why don't you do something really brave for your country, you pussy? I should have said. Join up. Be a soldier. Be a real man. But I didn't. I was a soldier. So what's his problem? Jelly legs? Yellow stripe? Cowards.
So no, I don't buy the hero cop crap. When I see a cop car, I feel one thing: apprehension. No heroes there, just clever sociopaths.
And I'm white. I can only imagine what the cops might do to someone who wasn't. And now, because of their scumbags and bullies, innocent people must suffer. Because they can't police themselves. What a fucking joke.
