Science vs Religion

[TruthSeeker]

Xev,

What in the bloody hell does that mean?

It's too simple for you to understand...

It seems that sonofbabylon, Jan Ardena and me are the only ones who understand it...

Love,
Nelson

 

[sonofbabylon]

Xev

I'm just having a little fun at your expense. Every argument you put forth(which was a valid exercise philosophically speaking) could be balanced just by transposing a few words. We are talking about two different subjects here. To imply that the argument for one can carry over to the other is taking licence with philosophical rules. Let me illustrate it with this analogy:

When you look into the eyes of your newborn child and feel that irresistable love that even didn't exist a moment before, no ontology, axiology, epistemology, pragmatism, or existentialism can explain it with all it's interconnected complexities. It just simply is. From that moment on, you're ready to defend it with your life.

I believe wholeheartedly with the prophecy of Micah Chapter 4.
Basically, it says(and I paraphrase), that the law will go out to the whole world and the whole world will flow into it. Then all will return to their own vine and fig tree(their own cultural understanding?) and follow their own gods. If it gives you comfort and peace, we have no right to judge you nor the god you worship.

Adam

I've known several people with your philosophy. They were really fun people to be around. The only sad part was when they ended up in one institution or another for their addictions. That's not a value judgement, it's just a simple fact. Moderation in all things. Enjoy life, just don't enjoy it too much--it may be to your detriment. Even laughing too much can make your face sore and give you a headache.

 

[TruthSeeker]

sonfbabylon,

When you look into the eyes of your newborn child and feel that irresistable love that even didn't exist a moment before, no ontology, axiology, epistemology, pragmatism, or existentialism can explain it with all it's interconnected complexities. It just simply is. From that moment on, you're ready to defend it with your life.

Finally someone understands Love! Can you help me in the thread "Perfect Love"?

If it gives you comfort and peace, we have no right to judge you nor the god you worship.

Yup!

Love,
Nelson

 

[Xev]

Well have fun at my expense all you like sonofbabylon, but that made utterly no sense at all. In attempting to make your opponent look foolish, you revealed your own foolishness.

We are talking about two different subjects here. To imply that the argument for one can carry over to the other is taking licence with philosophical rules.

So, ah, why did you imply that?

Basically, it says(and I paraphrase), that the law will go out to the whole world and the whole world will flow into it. Then all will return to their own vine and fig tree(their own cultural understanding?) and follow their own gods. If it gives you comfort and peace, we have no right to judge you nor the god you worship.

Athiests do not have Gods. I do not worship science.

Nelson:

It's too simple for you to understand...

Insert a 'sober' after 'understand' and I agree wholheartedly.

 

[Adam]

Originally posted by sonofbabylon
Adam

I've known several people with your philosophy. They were really fun people to be around. The only sad part was when they ended up in one institution or another for their addictions. That's not a value judgement, it's just a simple fact. Moderation in all things. Enjoy life, just don't enjoy it too much--it may be to your detriment. Even laughing too much can make your face sore and give you a headache.

I have a philosophy?! Well, maybe I do, but I doubt I've let it show here. Mostly I've had fun here. I generally try to keep my philosophy tucked away in my underwear as mucha s possible. DO I suffer some addiction? That's an interesting possibility...

 

[TruthSeeker]

Adam,

100% owned and operated by November.

Is that your philosophy?
With your description of "tucked away in my underwear as mucha s possible"...

Love,
Nelson
.
.
.

 

[Adam]

Could be...

 

[Godless]

Xev...

Quote: Xev, "Well have fun at my expense all you like sonofbabylon, but that made utterly no sense at all. In attempting to make your opponent look foolish, you revealed your own foolishness."

Xev, theists are like birds of a feather, even in their nonsense they stick together!.

Don't try and explain reason, nor logic, for they willfully have given up on these.

 

[Xev]

Indeed.

Sad, really.

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by Adam
I would, however, encourage you to cease being insulting and childish and go out to your local library.*

What's insulting and childish about telling you that I'd rather ask God than you about the truth?
Particularly, since you say you don't have it?

*Not "my parents told me god made it all and I'm groovy with that, I won't bother thinking about it".*

Typical non-believer assumption.
Most Christians I've met became Christians in their late teens and twenties.
Nothing to do with parents.

*But actually learn and search. *

OK, I get that you don't know what the truth is.
I do, but thanks for the useless advice.

*Originally posted by Xev
Well, it did involve spinning in a circle three times and renouncing God as a choir chanted the lyrics to 'Dear God' by XTC...... *

Oddly enough, for some people the ritual IS something like that.

*And I think Nelson is in love with a Melissa.
(That does end in 'a'!)*

Yeah, you're right about that, but I think it's generalized enough to spill over on to you.

*Que? backwards are processes thought my, mean you do what?*

That.

*No, just clearing up misconceptions.*

One person's "clearing up misconceptions" is another's fervent worship.
With cthulhu, the second applies to you, or don't you recognize worship when you see it?

*Like Christianity?*

Like HP Lovecraft's stuff.

*You've never been sick? Nelson hasn't? Jan hasn't? I have a 'believer' friend who has been sick. *

I was sick occasionally before I got saved, and until I realized that perfect health is one of God's promises.
Jan isn't a believer, Nelson's working on it.
As for your friend, if he/she believes in Jesus but not in perfect health, then he/she only believes part of the truth.

*Originally posted by Godless
If I recall correctly Tony0 you didn't answer anyofthem, you simply avoided the issue, and sarcastically cut everyone down. *

Bad memory.

*I'm glad to see you've toned down a bit, what happened?
Other than that, glad to see ya man!! *

Toned down?
Some guy was saying last week that I was the most active flamer on the board, and, get this, after I'd been gone for a month.

Nice to see you're posting, too.
I thought YOU were toning down.

*Since I last seen you, I've lost another friend, he gave up on life Tony, took his own life in a hotel room hidding from all of us for about a week, until we heard the news, that he had blown his head off, with a handgun.*

Knowing you is kind of hard on your friends, isn't it?
Perhaps it's the absence of hope you're preaching to them.
In any case, once again I feel I should offer you my condolences, Julio.

*Why the hell I'm telling you all this?

I don't know, I kind of like you, and deep down, atheists, Catholics, or whatever may be your creedo, should stick together when it comes to coping with the loss of loved ones.*

That's where the rubber meets the road, Julio.
You may be anti-pretty-much-everything, but death still hurts.
Science can't do anything about that pain.

*Originally posted by Xev
I don't want to scare Tony!*

I'm not afraid of benadryl, even less of cthulhu.
Non-believers, however, may not be able to say that.

*Science helps us discover and verify truth.*

You're confusing data with truth.
Science can't help you with truth, since it can't even define it.

*But, no alternatives are close to providing the accuracy it provides.*

LOL!
That's true!
No other alternative can get you 15,000,000,000% in error like science can!

*B: Tony and Sir Loone call athiests 'fools'. They have read and follow the Bible.*

Nope, that's God calling atheists fools.
We're just quoting.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. ...
(Psalms 14:1, KJV).

*The heart can mislead us as well.*

True, but what do you use, then?

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
(Jeremiah 17:9, KJV).

*Originally posted by tiassa
Interesting ... and how do we reach this conclusion?*

By observation.
People who are into science lead atrociously messy, soap-operatic lives.

*Oh, wait ... the topic is an illusion .....

It's a conundrum, I admit; all metaphysics eventually hit this wall. But then again, that wall is an illusion, too.

with illusory thanx,
Tiassa*

No problem, the intelligence you used to create your post is illusory, too.

*Originally posted by Master of Illusion
That would have to be one of the stupidest things ever said by anyone in the history of the world.*

The majority of scientists appear to atheists.
Based on Ps. 14:1, anything they say would be foolish, i.e. based on illusion.

*Originally posted by Adam
Illusion is the appearance of being so without necessarily being so. Science is the method of trying to determine what is so. *

Science attempts to create that illusion.
In actual fact, since science is unable to deal with illusion and deceit, science is doomed to fail.

*Originally posted by Godless
...Leonard Peikoff.
...Ayn Rand*

Since you're so focused on using your own brains, why is it that you so often seem to be quoting or paraphraing those two?
Have your own brains failed?

*Originally posted by Teg
Then under your set of rules there are no believers, nor have there ever been. *

Sorry, no.
There are plenty of healthy believers around.

*I find it curious that even in rebuttle of the idea you could not control your sarcasm.*

I apologize for your hypersensitivity, but there wasn't any sarcasm there.

*Even Christian ideas change. The problem I identified is that the book cannot change also. That is called stagnation.*

The problem is that the word "stagnation" essentially applies to water, not to books.

*Also remember to address the point of the item.*

I'm on that as soon as you make one.

*I realize that some lack a fundamental awareness of what constitutes an argument, but please at least follow those principles at the least.*

This an explanation of why you so rarely form coherent arguments?

*Originally posted by sonofbabylon
True science is not just trial and error. It involves faith in the outcome.
True religion is not just trial and error. It involves reason in the outcome.*

Hey, not bad!
That is why science is a religion.
And why God says this...

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
(Isaiah 1:18, KJV).

*Originally posted by Xev
There will always be a possibility of error in EVERYTHING.*

Nope.
There is no error in truth.

*I do not worship science.*

You worship cthulhu.
What a waste.

*Originally posted by Godless
Don't try and explain reason, nor logic, for they willfully have given up on these.*

Empty rhetoric.
You're the one with neither logic nor reason.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Posted by tony1:
Yeah, you're right about that, but I think it's generalized enough to spill over on to you.

What!!!!!
Are you kidding!?!?!?

I have complete Unconditional Love towards everyone and still I Love Melissa's Heart with all my Heart! Can't you understand that?!? Do you know what means Heart in the Bible? So get this definatly:

I LOVE HER HEART WITH ALL MY HEART!!

Do I need to say it again?

Because if I do, I say it. It's actually a pleasure to show my Love.

Love,
Nelson

 

[Xev]

Tony:

Oddly enough, for some people the ritual IS something like that.

Rather silly. Dear God

Yeah, you're right about that, but I think it's generalized enough to spill over on to you.

He is not my type.

As for your friend, if he/she believes in Jesus but not in perfect health, then he/she only believes part of the truth.

I'll tell him that next time I end up taking soup over....come to think of it, I don't get sick often either.

Some guy was saying last week that I was the most active flamer on the board, and, get this, after I'd been gone for a month.

Apparently your flames linger on. You should feel honored.

I'm not afraid of benadryl, even less of cthulhu.
Non-believers, however, may not be able to say that.

Oh good. Benadryl terrifies me.

You're confusing data with truth.
Science can't help you with truth, since it can't even define it.

A valid point about defining truth.....that is a flaw.

But I would think that truth is reality. And data is reality. So data is true.

Is data 'truth'?

Nope, that's God calling atheists fools.
We're just quoting.

Oh dear, to be called names by an imaginary man in the sky. I'm stung.

True, but what do you use, then?

Logic, reason. And accept the possibility of being wrong. And a little irrationality does not hurt, since reason and logic are limited.

You worship cthulhu.
What a waste.

We are just friends...and I do not worship science.

It is not as if we use copies of the 'Principia' to clean up the blood of sacrificial virgins.

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by TruthSeeker
I LOVE HER HEART WITH ALL MY HEART!!*

What about the rest of her, or are you trying to get her to sign an organ-donor card?

*Originally posted by Xev
Rather silly.*

Of course it's silly.
Atheism IS silly, so any way one "formally" adopts atheism must also be silly.

*He is not my type.*

I can see that.

*Apparently your flames linger on. You should feel honored.*

Powerful stuff.
However, I can't remember ever flaming anyone.

*But I would think that truth is reality. And data is reality. So data is true.

Is data 'truth'?*

Good questions.
One would think so, but science has a way of reaching conclusions that are unrelated to any known form of reality, or truth, or even data, for that matter.

*Oh dear, to be called names by an imaginary man in the sky. I'm stung. *

Oh you poor dear.

God is not a man...
(Numbers 23:19, KJV).

*Logic, reason. And accept the possibility of being wrong. And a little irrationality does not hurt, since reason and logic are limited.*

So, you admit that you're wrong.
While you phrase it as "the possibility of being wrong," the fact is that if it is possible for you to be wrong, then you will never know when you are wrong.
Thus, at the time that you are most convinced that you are right, you are most likely wrong.

*We are just friends.*

LOL.
Cthulhu and friendship?
That's like electricity and water, with you in the water.

*It is not as if we use copies of the 'Principia' to clean up the blood of sacrificial virgins.*

The well-equipped demon-worshipper always uses Kleenex tissues.

 

[Xev]

Tony1:

Of course it's silly.
Atheism IS silly,

How so?

Powerful stuff.
However, I can't remember ever flaming anyone.

Well see, even when you don't mean to. You really ought to be honored.

Numbers 23:19:

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

I thought God repented His creation of man?

So, you admit that you're wrong.
While you phrase it as "the possibility of being wrong," the fact is that if it is possible for you to be wrong, then you will never know when you are wrong.

Yep.

Thus, at the time that you are most convinced that you are right, you are most likely wrong.

I don't see how this follows. How is my being right or wrong contingent on how strongly I believe?

LOL.
Cthulhu and friendship?
That's like electricity and water, with you in the water.

Electricity and pure water, yes.

What have you got against Cthulhu?

The well-equipped demon-worshipper always uses Kleenex tissues.

No, they shred too easily. Bounty paper towels work best.

 

[TruthSeeker]

tony1,

What about the rest of her, or are you trying to get her to sign an organ-donor card?

You don't understand absolutly nothing of Christianism... as I see...

I Love her in Essence. I Love her Inner Child with all my Inner Child. Why I keep saying...? You don't understand anyways!

Good Luck,
Nelson

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by Xev
How so?*

Picture yourself starting an anti-threelegged purple camel society.
No one would take you seriously.
There aren't any such societies because everyone knows there are no such camels.

Atheism collapses because everyone knows there is a God, therefore an anti-God movement is real.
However, everyone, except atheists, realizes that it is stupidly contradictory to be anti-God on philosophical grounds.
Pretty much everyone can see that if you're against God, it is on personal grounds of hatred of God and rebellion.

*Well see, even when you don't mean to. You really ought to be honored. *

But for what?

*I thought God repented His creation of man?*

Very slick of you to notice that.
However, "repent" means to "rethink."
For man, repenting means rethinking and changing one's mind.
For God, since he always does things right the first time, there was no need to change his mind.

*Yep.*

OK, apparently being right or wrong means little to you.
I get that.
However, I suspect that being right or wrong in relation to someone else may mean more.

*I don't see how this follows. How is my being right or wrong contingent on how strongly I believe?*

The word "thus" refers to the state of never knowing, not to the strength of your belief.
Thus your being wrong isn't contingent on your belief, just coincident with it.
Since wrongness is your primary state, this state will naturally occur more often.

*Electricity and pure water, yes.*

Oh, he he.
I left out "pure" because any water connected with cthulhu isn't going to be pure.

*What have you got against Cthulhu?*

Just a personal thing.
He's got you captive, and you're a fun person to debate with.

*No, they shred too easily. Bounty paper towels work best. *

You know, I was thinking of that name, but I hit "submit" instead of "preview" as it came up.
I'm sure that makers of Bounty will be glad to know of one additional use for their product.

BTW, I think you take your sig quote by Bruno far too seriously.
Realistically there isn't time to take all positions into consideration, and you'll be debating opponents whose entire focus is on their own position and not that of everyone else.

*Originally posted by Nelson
You don't understand absolutly nothing of Christianism... as I see...

I Love her in Essence. I Love her Inner Child with all my Inner Child. Why I keep saying...? You don't understand anyways! *

Unless she reads a LOT of romance novels and Hallmark cards, you don't stand a chance.
Even if she does, the first time one of you farts, the mood will be gone.

 

[Xev]

Tony1:

Atheism collapses because everyone knows there is a God, therefore an anti-God movement is real.
However, everyone, except atheists, realizes that it is stupidly contradictory to be anti-God on philosophical grounds.

No, we aren't anti God. We simply don't believe in Him.

Very slick of you to notice that.
However, "repent" means to "rethink."
For man, repenting means rethinking and changing one's mind.
For God, since he always does things right the first time, there was no need to change his mind.

Genesis 6:5-7:

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

My italics.

Didn't he change His mind? And, I think he does this again - He repents having caused the flood....I'll re-read the rest of Genesis.

(Edited to note that He did not repent causing the flood - He promised not to do it again after Noah sacrificed a bunch of animals)

OK, apparently being right or wrong means little to you.

No, actually, I have a somwhat neurotic attatchment to being right. But I was wrong that time. So I admit it.

*What have you got against Cthulhu?*

Just a personal thing.
He's got you captive, and you're a fun person to debate with.

Thanks. But he dosen't exist.

*Smiles*

I think.

You know, I was thinking of that name, but I hit "submit" instead of "preview" as it came up.
I'm sure that makers of Bounty will be glad to know of one additional use for their product.

I should e-mail them and let them know. Perhaps they would send a complimentary supply.

Realistically there isn't time to take all positions into consideration, and you'll be debating opponents whose entire focus is on their own position and not that of everyone else.

True. There is the whole "Sparkles the Purple Unicorn created the universe" position in creation vs. evolution debates...I don't waste time considering the merits of Sparkles.

 

[TruthSeeker]

You hurt me...

You are definetly not a Christian...

 

[tony1]

*Originally posted by Xev
No, we aren't anti God. We simply don't believe in Him.*

That sounds just as real and convincing as if you'd said you don't believe in air.
Make no mistake, I do believe that you have convinced yourself that there is no God.
Of course, to do that you would have had to start with God and gradually convince yourself that he doesn't exist.

*My italics.

Didn't he change His mind? And, I think he does this again - He repents having caused the flood....I'll re-read the rest of Genesis. *

Apparently, he didn't actually change his mind, since 8 people were left.
Had he actually changed his mind, 0 people would have been left.
Don't forget, to repent doesn't mean to change one's mind so much as it means to rethink.
Upon rethinking, if one is in error one changes one's mind.
God wasn't in error.

*But I was wrong that time. So I admit it. *

OK, I'm sorry for flogging that horse beyond death, then.
That's just so rare here, and anywhere in public for that matter.
Your attitude is refreshing.

*Thanks. But he dosen't exist.
*Smiles*
I think.*

That could be one of those times that you are wrong but think you're right.
Where do you think HP Lovecraft got the idea for that particular creature?

*Perhaps they would send a complimentary supply. *

Ordinarily, that might be a joke, but here in cyberspace, I can only ask, do you think you'll need them for that?

* There is the whole "Sparkles the Purple Unicorn created the universe" position in creation vs. evolution debates...I don't waste time considering the merits of Sparkles. *

However, you do consider the merits of atheism.
How odd.

*Originally posted by TruthSeeker
You hurt me...
You are definetly not a Christian...*

Who are you talking to?
and...

Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
(Proverbs 27:6, KJV).

You wouldn't be so easily hurt if you kept your heart behind your armor where it belongs instead of out on your sleeve.

 

[Xev]

Tony:

Make no mistake, I do believe that you have convinced yourself that there is no God.
Of course, to do that you would have had to start with God and gradually convince yourself that he doesn't exist.

No, actually, I think I was more or less born an athiest. I've tried to believe....sorta....but I can't.

Perhaps you started the same way, but you managed to convince yourself.

Apparently, he didn't actually change his mind, since 8 people were left.
Had he actually changed his mind, 0 people would have been left.
Don't forget, to repent doesn't mean to change one's mind so much as it means to rethink.
Upon rethinking, if one is in error one changes one's mind.
God wasn't in error

Hmm....on closer reading, that makes sense.

Where do you think HP Lovecraft got the idea for that particular creature?

Thinking of a dragon, a squid, and a man, I presume.

Ordinarily, that might be a joke, but here in cyberspace, I can only ask, do you think you'll need them for that?

*Chuckles*

Of course not.

However, you do consider the merits of atheism.
How odd.

Athiesm is hardly comparable to Sparkles the Purple Unicorn.

Nelson:

You wouldn't be so easily hurt if you kept your heart behind your armor where it belongs instead of out on your sleeve.

He does have a point. I doubt you will take his advice though.

I like you, boy. Don't let it hurt you.

Tony, perhaps an apology?