Science vs Religion

[TruthSeeker]

Adam,

Why study something which is always changing? You eman like weather patterns? Maybe to work out better crop rotations to feed hundreds of thousands of starving people. Maybe to provide the best chances of avoiding natural disasters.

I was talking about the Truth that Science seeks...
And about the constants...
The Universe as we know today might be different from the Universe that we will know tomorrow, as the Science develops.
For example, I read somewhere that the Huble Constant might be wrong. That it might not exist. And this implies that the Universe is not expanding. I read in a magazine, some time ago... I unfortunatly can't remember all the magazines I ever read...

dan1123,

God says that He is the Truth. Now... I want you to interpret it. Forget beliefs. Just mix the words and try to see what is the Truth, by seeing what's God...

Humans allways change. But as it's said in the Bible, God never changes. Even because God is timeless...

(Q),

You are comparing yourself to Einstein?

If I consider that I discovered the Relativity when I was 14 years old and Einstein discovered when he was 16... I guess the answer is... YES!!!

Oh yeah, I figured it might be something you were smoking.

No comments.

Adam,

Nothing wrong with comparing yourself to Eistein. He was crap at maths. So am I. Someone has to invent new things, come up with new theories, refine older theories. Why the hell not someone who uses Sciforums? You do realise, don't you, that Einstein was NOT the smartest, the ultimate, intelligence ever?

Good point...

Godless,

Fact!! if he was resurrected, then reality, and logic would explain to us he was really not dead!!.

He was dead for two days... the doctors examined him. No respiration. Nothing. They even injected a sunstance inside him... I'll post it later...

The guy who rapped a 5 year old girl here in Houston Tx, love that idiot? you crazy?

I know that's hard...

But what a virtue...

PS: Love them don't mean agree with them...

Love,
Nelson

 

[(Q)]

I read somewhere that the Huble Constant might be wrong

Of course it might be wrong. Think about the logistics.

The calculations are based on comparing the relative intrinsic brightness of a pulsating star called a Cepheid, to the observed brightness of the star, thus yielding its distance. In other words, astronomers are using the cyclical flicker of a star millions of light years away as their best guess distance indicators.

Measuring the distance to other galaxies is far more accurate than trying to calculate the relative expansion of the known universe. That is complicated stuff.

Its going to take a few more observations and a little more time to get it right.

That it might not exist. And this implies that the Universe is not expanding.

No. The Hubble Constant exists because the known universe has been observed expanding. It simply implies that the distance indicators used for measuring galactic distances are not as reliable for measuring the expansion of the universe.

 

[Godless]

If...

He appeared dead, he was not breathing, little oxygen might of still been reaching his brain by unoticialble breathing, his brain function perhaps was not determined, he could have slowed down his metabolism to a stand still, however he was not dead, to the point he had no brain function.

I seriously doubt that he came back from "complete" death.

Like I mentioned, if he had his brains splatered by a bullet, ran over by a Jeep, and partially eaten by a lion, then died, then came back to full consciousness. This news would have made CNN and not some "perhaps" manufactured video, by some theist organization. In other words TruthSeeker, the credibility of your story is moot!.

 

[TruthSeeker]

(Q),

The calculations are based on comparing the relative intrinsic brightness of a pulsating star called a Cepheid, to the observed brightness of the star, thus yielding its distance. In other words, astronomers are using the cyclical flicker of a star millions of light years away as their best guess distance indicators.

The Hubble Constant exists because the known universe has been observed expanding. It simply implies that the distance indicators used for measuring galactic distances are not as reliable for measuring the expansion of the universe.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah... I know all this stuf...
I was saying that we still don't have good constants to explain the Universe. That was my whole point. As you said, we need better indicators...

Godless,

He sufferd brain damage...
There is even a death certificate... I unfortubnatly don't have scan, otherwise, I would scan for you...

Love,
Nelson

 

[Xelios]

TruthSeeker, we don't even fully understand how our brain works. Saying this man was saved by God is jumping to conclusions.

 

[Tiassa]

I knew there was a reason I was avoiding this topic

And I should pay attention to that inclination. However, I'm not going to because insofar as I can tell, this whole thread is based on an adopted metaphysical principle that is tailored to meet a preconceived conclusion.

Science is the study of the illusion.
Religion is the study of the Truth.

Interesting ... and how do we reach this conclusion?

Well, everything is an illusion. The material world the Science studies is just an illusion. Time and space are illusions. The material world is an illusion. There's only energy in the Universe. E=mc2: that's the proof. Mass is just a kind of energy. The Universe is flexible. It's molded by our beliefs. If you have faith in your Heart and believe in something you'll get it. That's how you live in this Universe: creating your own reality.

But Religion is different. In Religion we study the Truth: Love. Love is the Truth. It's beyond this "reality". Love is God. Love is energy in its hightest frequency. Love is The Source. We came from it and we will come back to it.

This is laughable. Mass is molded by our beliefs? Who needs drugs these days? I haven't laughed this hard since the whatchamacallit line during the set break at a Phish concert while on mushrooms.

• Differentiation is an illusion.

There is nothing about you or a rock that is any different from a star except mere ratios.

• Perception of the illusion becomes reality.

Well, we're here. Illusion or not, we have to cope with it.

• Science is the objective study of the perception of the illusion.

Put it this way: differentiation may be an illusion; the difference between you and a bullet may be an illusion; the difference between life and death may be an illusion. But so, too, are you an illusion, so why bother ducking when someone shoots at you? After all, it's just an illusion.

Tell it to Hiroshima. Oh, you can't ... they're just illusions giving the illusion of being dead, killed by another illusion.

Sound ridiculous, yet? Or should I ask why you're not nihilist? I'd give you the hemlock poison, but it's only an illusion anyway.

• Religion is an internal--illusory--response to the illusion.

Religion is subjective. It finds its roots in an illusory fear of the illusion.

• Love is an illusion.

Love is comparative. I would recommend the Naples Arrangement by Master Therion. To love a thing requires a subject to feel love and an object to be loved. Love necessitates differentiation. Differentiation is an illusion. Love, therefore is an illusion.

• Truth is an illusion

The differentiation required to allow love to exist is illusory. The Truth that you have assigned to this illusory love is an illusion in itself.

But don't worry, Truthseeker, this post is only an illusion. See? I told you I should have stayed out of this topic. Oh, wait ... the topic is an illusion .....

It's a conundrum, I admit; all metaphysics eventually hit this wall. But then again, that wall is an illusion, too.

with illusory thanx,
Tiassa

 

[TruthSeeker]

tiassa,

You didn't understand not even one word I said...

This is laughable. Mass is molded by our beliefs? Who needs drugs these days? I haven't laughed this hard since the whatchamacallit line during the set break at a Phish concert while on mushrooms.

If mass is molded by our beliefs...?
Not exactly...
I said:

Universe is flexible. It's molded by our beliefs.

Reality as we know is molded by our beliefs. That's because all our background, our culture and everything else makes our Reality. Imagine a Christian. For him, God and Devil will exist. Then, if something good he would say: God gave me a blessing. If something bad happens he would say: The Devil is hurting me. It'll be like that. And each one's life will be molded and influenced by beliefs, culture, life experiences and so on...
It's pure Philosophy...

• Differentiation is an illusion.

Who said that?

• Perception of the illusion becomes reality.

Who said that??

• Science is the objective study of the perception of the illusion.

Well... you almost got this one...
Ssience is the objective study of the perception of our reality.

• Religion is an internal--illusory--response to the illusion.

???

• Love is an illusion.

What?!?!?!

Love is the Truth!!!!

• Truth is an illusion

?????????


Further explanations on Love:

Love is comparative. I would recommend the Naples Arrangement by Master Therion. To love a thing requires a subject to feel love and an object to be loved. Love necessitates differentiation. Differentiation is an illusion. Love, therefore is an illusion.

First, Love does not require anything external. Second, Love is not comparitive.
This concept of love is widely spread around the world. Almost everyone recognizes Love like that. But Love is beyond personalization. There is no subject and object. There is subject and object when you project YOUR own Love on other people!

It is YOUR Love that you see reflected by other people. That's Love. Love is within you. You don't need anyone to Love but it's much easier to see YOUR Love when you look to others. You can see in his/her actions and reactions towards you and others.

Love,
Nelson

 

[Master of Illusion]

Truthseeker said: "Science is based on illusions..."

That would have to be one of the stupidest things ever said by anyone in the history of the world.

 

[TruthSeeker]

That would have to be one of the stupidest things ever said by anyone in the history of the world.

Not really...

 

[Adam]

Illusion is the appearance of being so without necessarily being so. Science is the method of trying to determine what is so.

As for the universe being moulded by our beliefs, well, this is something very important in my own personal philosophy. Walk down the street, watch the people. Study your friends. With most people, you can pretty much guess the probabilities and possibilities of the way their life will go, not counting accidents and such. I'm very rarely surprised by what people I know do, because they do things that are "typical" for them. It's not hard to figure out how people will progress through life. Generally the way they will go is determined by where they have been, and how they think. However, there are some people who have the will to make their world whatever they want. Some people can make their own path, regardless of any other factors (except for such things as being struck by lightning - some things you just suck up and deal with). Anyone can do it. Life is almost entirely what we make of it, provided we have the will to make it so.

No, we can't (yet) look at a fridge and change the matter to resemble a dog, or such. But we can sell the fridge and buy a dog. That is a very basic example of how our will shapes the world.

 

[Godless]

Lets start of how he basis his conclusions..

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Science is the study of the illusion.
Religion is the study of the Truth.

Coming from "faith" this assertion is valid!.

Faith designates blind acceptance of a certain ideational content, acceptance induced by "feeling" in the absence of evidence or proof. *Leonard Peikoff.

Faith in the supernatural begins as faith in the superiority of others.*Ayn Rand

Faith and force..are corollaries: every period of history dominated by mysticism, was a period of statism, of dictartorship, of tyranny.


Conclusion: Truthseeker has been mislead!.

*The Attack on Reason
Immanuel Kant wrote that he "found it necessary to deny knowledge of God.. in order to find a place for faith." All advocates of faith are Kantians in this respect. In any defense of faith that one cares to examine, one will find an attack on reason.
Some Christians are openly hostile to reason (notably those sympathetic with existentialism). These Christians usually declare that reason is nothing more than an impersonal calculating device, a cold deductive faculty that cannot give meaning and substance to man's life. Faith, on the other hand, is "vital and indiscribable"; it "partakes of the mystery of life itself. The opposition between faith and reason is that between the vital and the rational." Christian faith "is not only faith beyond reason but, if need be, "against" reason.*William Barrett, Irrational Man. 1962, PP 92-93.

Truthseeker, keep seeking and you shall find the truth, however the truth is not based upon faith, it is based on objective knowledge.

Irrationalism: Reason is the faculty that identifies, in conceptual terms, the material provided by man's senses. "Irrationalism" is the doctrine that reason is not a valid means of knowledge or a proper quide to action. *Leonard Peikoff.

Irrationality: Man's basic vice, the sourse of all his evils, is the act of unfocusing his mind, the suspension of his consciousness, which is not blindness, but the refusal to see, not ignorance, but the refusal to know. Irrationality is the rejection of man's means of survival and therefore, a commitment to a course of blind destruction; that which is anti-mind, is anti-life. *Ayn Rand.

 

[Teg]

Tony1

The rule is so simple that it looks like you missed it.
Believers don't get sick.

Simple, no?

I see. Then under your set of rules there are no believers, nor have there ever been.

*ignore the idea and add attempt at joke.*

It's called reductio ad absurdum.
Your idea in its simplest form is just absurd, i.e. it makes no sense; it goes nowhere.
I realize that it sounded great when it was just a thought in your head, but typed out it just doesn't look that great.

No real information on why it's absurd, but more evidence of that pattern of behavior. I find it curious that even in rebuttle of the idea you could not control your sarcasm. If you are the best the Christians have to offer my point has already been made.

*The bible is the bible, no room for change. If this were not true then we should expect that text books would instead of changing, stay the same.*

Correct, but you're trashing your own point.
Since text books ARE changing, that means they are always WRONG.

Even Christian ideas change. The problem I identified is that the book cannot change also. That is called stagnation.

*I argue that the "with polio" is superfluous informationin that last statement.*

I note the feeble attempt at humor.
I believe it is your first.

I am sorry that your primitive understanding has led you to a misinterpretation of my statement. I was not attempting humor but rather a fact.

I have brought this to light on prior occassions: if you lack sufficient rebuttle argument do not attempt to restate the other statement with a copy in the negative form. Also remember to address the point of the item. I realize that some lack a fundamental awareness of what constitutes an argument, but please at least follow those principles at the least.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Adam,

Illusion is the appearance of being so without necessarily being so. Science is the method of trying to determine

Yes... Science tries to determine it...

As for the universe being moulded by our beliefs, well, this is something very important in my own personal philosophy. Walk down the street, watch the people. Study your friends. With most people, you can pretty much guess the probabilities and possibilities of the way their life will go, not counting accidents and such. I'm very rarely surprised by what people I know do, because they do things that are "typical" for them. It's not hard to figure out how people will progress through life. Generally the way they will go is determined by where they have been, and how they think. However, there are some people who have the will to make their world whatever they want. Some people can make their own path, regardless of any other factors (except for such things as being struck by lightning - some things you just suck up and deal with). Anyone can do it. Life is almost entirely what we make of it, provided we have the will to make it so.

Finally someone got my point!!


Godless,

Truthseeker, keep seeking and you shall find the truth, however the truth is not based upon faith, it is based on objective knowledge.

Not exactly... see above...

Irrationalism: Reason is the faculty that identifies, in conceptual terms, the material provided by man's senses. "Irrationalism" is the doctrine that reason is not a valid means of knowledge or a proper quide to action. *Leonard Peikoff. .

The Bible also talks about common sense... what's pretty rational...

Love,
Nelson

 

[sonofbabylon]

Here are a few quotes from men of reason. These were taken from a documentary shown on PBS titled "The Creation of the Universe"

Allan Sandage(Astronomer)

Out of the big bang has come a non-chaotic system, because otherwise, cause and effect which surely exists would be impossible. So the design one sees in the universe may be completely natural as an outcome of the differential equations. The mystery is: why is the world describable in terms of differential equations?and it is. That?s the answer physics gives. All students that ever study are mystified by the great recipes that science have found., but the universe works by those recipes. So the universe we observe is not a chance phenomena. (THIS IS FAITH)

Stephen Hawking
From the age of 13 or 14 , I wanted to know how the universe worked and why, and why it is what it is. Now I have some idea how the universe works, but I really still do not understand?I really still do not understand why.(THIS IS FAITH)

Leon Lederman(Physicist)

The trouble we?re in now?this standard model?this standard picture, is very elegant and very powerful. But it?s not complete. It?s incomplete and has some flaws. One of its greatest flaws is one which is hard to explain. It?s an aesthetic flaw. It?s too complicated, and has too many arbitrary parameters?too many fluctuating limits. We don?t really see the creator twiddling twenty knobs and twenty parameters in the universe as we know it. That?s too many. Ever since the Greeks started us on this road to understanding the atom, the fundamental building blocks of the universe, we?ve had this predjudice that there?s something simple underneath all of this. Now 6 quarks and 6 leptons and all their antiparticles and their coming in different colors and charges is too complicated., and there?s a deep feeling the picture is not beautiful.; and that drive for beauty, simplicity and symmetry has been an unfailing drive as to how to go in physics.(THIS IS FAITH)

Steven Weinberg(Physicist)

We haven?t come to the bottom level yet. But as we approach it, intimations of an underlying beautiful theory whose beauty we can only dimly see at the present time. We don?t know that its true. We don?t know that there is a beautiful underlying theory. We don?t know that as a species we are smart enough to learn what it is. But we do know that if we don?t assume that there is a beautiful underlying theory, and assume that we?re smart enough to find out what it is?we never will. (THIS IS FAITH)

John Wheeler(Physicist)

To my mind, at the bottom of it all must be?not an utterly beautiful equation, but an utterly simple idea?and to me that idea when we finally discover it will be so compelling, so inevitable, so beautiful, that we will say to each other?how could it have been otherwise. (THIS IS FAITH)

Timothy Ferris(Cosmologist)

In the Judeo/Christian tradition, creation involved order from chaos and light from darkness. Religion and Science have sometimes been depicted as opponents, but science owes a great deal to religion. Modern Science began with the renaissance of the old Greek idea that nature is rationally intelligible. But Science from the beginning incorporated another idea that the universe really is a universe.?ruled by a single set of laws and science got that idea from the Judeo/Christian belief in one God. Now the men that discovered many of the laws of nature?the founders of modern science like Kepler, Copernicus, and Isaac Newton and Gallileo(with all his troubles with the church) were profoundly religious men. In the modern scientific research, especially unified theory, testifies to the triumph of the old idea that the universe may be ruled by a single and elegantly beautiful principle.(THIS IS FAITH)

True science is not just trial and error. It involves faith in the outcome.
True religion is not just trial and error. It involves reason in the outcome.

 

[TruthSeeker]

sonofbabylon,

In one word: brilliant!

True science is not just trial and error. It involves faith in the outcome.
True religion is not just trial and error. It involves reason in the outcome.

Brilliant!!
Brilliant!!

Love,
Nelson

 

[Xev]

True science is not just trial and error. It involves faith in the outcome.
True religion is not just trial and error. It involves reason in the outcome.

Brilliant!!

Er...no. The only 'faith' involved in science is our 'faith' that reality exists and that it can be understood.

This hardly hurts science. I have faith that my senses are functioning properly, that you exist and I am not talking to a figment of my imagination......

There will always be a possibility of error in EVERYTHING. To invalidate everything on the basis of this possibility is, as Tiassa noted, to embrace nihlism.

You almost had it:

Ssience is the objective study of the perception of our reality.

The only way this can be thought of as diminishing science is by denying that we can correctly percieve reality. That borders on nihlism.

 

[sonofbabylon]

Er...no. The only 'faith' involved in science is our 'faith' that reality exists and that it can be understood.

Er...yes. The only "reason" involved in religion is our "reason" that illusion exists and that it can be understood.

This hardly hurts science. I have faith that my senses are functioning properly, that you exist and I am not talking to a figment of my imagination......

This hardly hurts religion. I have reason that my senses are functioning improperly, that your existence is not how I perceive it to be and I am talking to a figment of your imagination...

There will always be a possibility of error in EVERYTHING. To invalidate everything on the basis of this possibility is, as Tiassa noted, to embrace nihlism.

There will always be a possibility of truth in ANYTHING. To validate anything on the basis of this possibility is to embrace illusion.

You almost had it:

You almost had it
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ssience is the objective study of the perception of our reality.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Religion is the subjective study of the perception of our illusion.

The only way this can be thought of as diminishing science is by denying that we can correctly percieve reality. That borders on nihlism.

The only way this can be thought of as diminishing religion is by denying that we can correctly perceive illusion. That borders on self-righteousness.

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling-block, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are.

 

[Adam]

No no no! You're all wrong with these silly semantic arguments! My own True Religion is the One True Belief! It's tenets are as follows:

- Everything that is wrong is right.
- Everything that is right is wrong.
- Illusion is not reality.
- Reality is illusion.
- There is no "nothing".
- Nothing is what it seems.

Embrace the True Faith! Convert and be Saved!

(Now, those tenets of my One True Religion are really quite nifty.)

 

[Jan Ardena]

Originally posted by sonofbabylon
John Wheeler (Physicist)
To my mind, at the bottom of it all must be?not an utterly beautiful equation, but an utterly simple idea?and to me that idea when we finally discover it will be so compelling, so inevitable, so beautiful, that we will say to each other?how could it have been otherwise. (THIS IS FAITH)

This quote is my favourite.
Me thinks this is an excellent post.
Thanks.

Love.

Jan Ardena.

 

[Xev]

sonofbabylon: You know, you are not supposed to drink the bong water......

What in the hell were you trying to say?

Er...yes. The only "reason" involved in religion is our "reason" that illusion exists and that it can be understood.

What in the bloody hell does that mean?

I give up trying to understand this.

Adam:Embrace the True Faith! Convert and be Saved!

No you infidel, Great Cthulhu is the One True Squid!

Cthulhu loves you.