Redux: Rape, Abortion, and "Personhood"

Do I support the proposition? (see post #2)


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A Note to ElectricFetus

Per the provocateur role you have chosen to play, I would point out the delightful challenge you would face should you undertake the opportunity to try to justify this performance.

Go for it, dude. I mean, you can already demand proof of a negative assertion with a straight face, and have held extraordinary assertions devoid of any need for support as long as they are anti-abortion. I look forward to the explanation of how proper discourse includes assertions that don't even make sense.

In other words, what ass-kissing do you think we owe this troll?

You're on.

Can't you just get over it? Here I was talking directly about morality for abortion and your still talking about how offensive my trying with some degree of success to get Bells to talk personhood was to you. Get over it.
 
What value is "life"? Does life have value simply for being, intrinsic value? Or are their properties of life that give life value?

The later would seem to be the case. It is why most of us are inclined to grant a person with a painful fatal disease that is begging for "voluntary euthanasia" the sweet release of death. Or how we think more of a person then a dog, or an insect or a plant, etc. For the pro-life verse pro-choice argument the points of value are generally pain, happiness and freedom verse intrinsic value of life. Different metrics between these generates different stances on the pro-life/pro-choice debate, and produces most but not all pro-life/pro-choice stances.
If our thinking more of a person than a dog extends to the point that we think killing it on whim is our prerogative, I would argue you are not talking about happiness, lack of pain or freedom, but malice born of selfishness.
Civilization tends to be built on the precept that wielding greater power be met with a greater capacity for protection of others.

A pro-choicer values happiness, lack of pain and freedom more then a "supposed" intrinsic value of life. Outlawing abortion inhibits freedom, degrading the quality of life of the "hostess" who is forced to grow a fetus to term that she does not want, it degrades her happiness in life and the happiness of the child, by forcing her to raise a child she does not want, and forcing a child to be birthed and raised by a mother that loath her and/or lacks the resources to support her as best as the mother could. As some pro-choicers have pointed out already (in rather crankish fashion) abortion can allow a women to have a child when she wants to and feels most ready to support said child, with better income, education, a loving willing spouse, etc
If one actually values a quality, they value it in all cases in appears in.
So for instance if I say I like forests, its not an issue of whether I like forests in Austria, Africa or Australia ... and infact if I did describe my tastes in such a manner, it would indicate that using "forests" as a category to describe what I like is not entirely accurate.
So, similarly, if I talk about valuing happiness and lack of pain, yet only exclusively *my* happiness et al it tends to offer a reduced scope for the terms usage .... especially if in the act of pursuing my happiness entails the consequence of tremendous suffering (Most people who value happiness would rate being "exterminated" for the crime of infringing on the happiness of another as quite extreme)

such children are statistically better off, thus abortion takes a life from potential/eer "developing" people to give it over to more abstract potential people that are fewer but better off.
That's kind of taking morality to new lows since we don't , at least at the moment, endorse killing people statistically inclined to be criminals and saying they are better off that way.

There are other pro-choice arguments. The viability argument is useful: A fetus is not a independent life form (yet) therefor is property of the hostess to do with how ever she likes. This argument alone can't deal with "viable" fetuses or worse the potential of technology to make younger and younger fetuses, viable. This is also an argument for freedom, but like the more blatant argument that criminalized abortion inhibits a women's freedom it is open to asking "what about the fetuses freedom?"
Actually I think contingency is a poor model for granting the reins of power and actually is a notion that runs contrary to many things we hold as valuable to a sane civilization.

The pragmatic argument is also useful but can't separate what is right from what can be done: we can't declare something morally right simply because it is the more practical option, although laws can be made around pragmatism and realpolitiks and is probably a big reason why abortion has become legal, it does not change the moral consideration.
granted.
Actually I think the whole abortion issue is kind of the default position of a society that has screwed up on so many levels, ranging from the idealization of the sexual act as one of self expression that, far from bearing any relationship to responsible parenthood, is vehemently opposed to it and also economic models that postulate pregnancy as "economic/social suicide).
I think outright prohibition of abortion would probably fail along the same lines as prohibition of alcohol in the states.
At the same time though I think it should be entirely provisional and always under review. I think there is always a tension in any society between when something should be legislatively upheld and when it is controlled by social stigma and taboo. As things stand at the moment, abortion is kind of somewhere between these two states .... and I guess it stands poised there to the degree that it is supported by willing and consenting parties (regardless whether we are talking about willing consenting pro-choices pushing for mandatory legislative precedents to protect their freedom of choice or willing, consenting medical professionals pushing for mandatory legislative precedents to protect their freedom of choice to refrain from being implicated in acts they find ethically questionable)


Rather for pro-choicers to generate a sound ethical frameworks to back their stance a combination of the above arguments and more is needed. For example the happiness and freedom of the mother is of more value then the life of a fetus, another fetus can be conceived and born at the mother's discretion. Even if we give gradients to potential people, and grant a fetus higher status then zygote, fertilize embryo, sperm, ova, abstract future people, the combine value of the freedom of the full person, the hostess, and that full person's happiness is greater. The fetus can be granted more value if it is viable though and thus could be separate from the mother as a living entity but would have to be done so as to optimize quality of life, that would mean pragmatically the state would need to pay for growing the fetus to term in an incubator or artificial womb and raising the child in an orphanage if the mother does not want it.

I argue there is no intrinsic value to life and thus the properties of life that give it value, happiness, freedom of choice, favor abortion morally, not just legally.
Discussing issues of happiness and freedom does not look good if it is divorced or discussions of responsibility, consequence and obligation.
IOW we live in a world that affords freedom or happiness as contested, limited and competitive values that are controlled in a more or less civilized way by the degree that we are responsible within a certain framework of obligation and self control.
I recall some link I can't find at the moment discussing how authors of the american treatise of independence and freedom explain that this precept will only be effective amongst a moral population capable of self control .... otherwise its just a fast track to suffering.
Infact there are many discussions that happiness divorced of a service attitude to others is simply superficial embellishment of sensory activity that is incapable of establishing any sense of worth or value.
 
Is this why they are going to court to make contraception harder to get?

From the National Association of Evangelical's website

It has nothing to do with access to contraceptives, only who is forced to pay for it or tacitly endorse it. So you have conflated a religious freedom issue with being against contraceptives. Typical intellectual dishonesty.

If that 37% is pro-choice, why are you not advocating abortion only in a few circumstances?
How about just one, the current definition of non-viability.

"Non-viability" is NOT "a few circumstances". Most abortions are justified as being "non-viable". The complete opposite of "a few".

You seem to assume that pro-life must be an all or nothing proposition. Why else would that 37% want abortion restricted other than to protect life? Obviously that 37% may not want to completely overturn R v. W, but would avocate more restrictions than R v. W requires. If that 37% is pro-choice, why are you not advocating abortion only in a few circumstances?

Only extremists must demand that any opposition is equally extreme.
And only extremists feel they should have a say in a matter that exists solely in the body of another, so much so, that they feel they should be allowed to restrict and control that person's body.

Defense of vulnerable life is not extreme, or do you equally berate PETA? You simply call it extreme because you disagree with what is considered life. Arbitrary semantics does not make your opposition extreme, while your propaganda and ad hominems does make you so.

Deal.
 
What value is "life"? Does life have value simply for being, intrinsic value? Or are their properties of life that give life value?

The later would seem to be the case. It is why most of us are inclined to grant a person with a painful fatal disease that is begging for "voluntary euthanasia" the sweet release of death. Or how we think more of a person then a dog, or an insect or a plant, etc. For the pro-life verse pro-choice argument the points of value are generally pain, happiness and freedom verse intrinsic value of life. Different metrics between these generates different stances on the pro-life/pro-choice debate, and produces most but not all pro-life/pro-choice stances.

You seem to be contrasting quality of life with intrinsic value, but there is an intersection at potential quality of life, which is inherent. You also seem to be making the rather questionable point that quality trumps inherent potential, when the quality impairment to one life is temporary in exchange for a potentially full, and not completely without quality, life.

A pro-choicer values happiness, lack of pain and freedom more then a "supposed" intrinsic value of life. Outlawing abortion inhibits freedom, degrading the quality of life of the "hostess" who is forced to grow a fetus to term that she does not want, it degrades her happiness in life and the happiness of the child, by forcing her to raise a child she does not want, and forcing a child to be birthed and raised by a mother that loath her and/or lacks the resources to support her as best as the mother could. As some pro-choicers have pointed out already (in rather crankish fashion) abortion can allow a women to have a child when she wants to and feels most ready to support said child, with better income, education, a loving willing spouse, etc such children are statistically better off, thus abortion takes a life from potential/eer "developing" people to give it over to more abstract potential people that are fewer but better off.

No one is "forced to raise a child", but pro-choicers often seem to gloss over the option to put a child up for adoption. And statistics ensure that some relatively or wholly quality lives are necessarily aborted.

Rather for pro-choicers to generate a sound ethical frameworks to back their stance a combination of the above arguments and more is needed. For example the happiness and freedom of the mother is of more value then the life of a fetus, another fetus can be conceived and born at the mother's discretion. Even if we give gradients to potential people, and grant a fetus higher status then zygote, fertilize embryo, sperm, ova, abstract future people, the combine value of the freedom of the full person, the hostess, and that full person's happiness is greater. The fetus can be granted more value if it is viable though and thus could be separate from the mother as a living entity but would have to be done so as to optimize quality of life, that would mean pragmatically the state would need to pay for growing the fetus to term in an incubator or artificial womb and raising the child in an orphanage if the mother does not want it.

You seem to be neglecting the weight a full potential life has on the temporary inconvenience of another.


But you have not engaged any of my arguments about personhood so far, so I will assume this post really only exists to reestablish your pro-choice credentials.
 
If our thinking more of a person than a dog extends to the point that we think killing it on whim is our prerogative, I would argue you are not talking about happiness, lack of pain or freedom, but malice born of selfishness.
Civilization tends to be built on the precept that wielding greater power be met with a greater capacity for protection of others.

Let not misconstrue utilitarianism for might-makes-right. Many animals are granted rights, rights not to be torture or starved to death, etc, etc, this is implemented by a desire for them not be feel pain or unnecessary amounts of pain.

If one actually values a quality, they value it in all cases in appears in.
So for instance if I say I like forests, its not an issue of whether I like forests in Austria, Africa or Australia ... and infact if I did describe my tastes in such a manner, it would indicate that using "forests" as a category to describe what I like is not entirely accurate.
So, similarly, if I talk about valuing happiness and lack of pain, yet only exclusively *my* happiness et al it tends to offer a reduced scope for the terms usage .... especially if in the act of pursuing my happiness entails the consequence of tremendous suffering (Most people who value happiness would rate being "exterminated" for the crime of infringing on the happiness of another as quite extreme)

If your arguing about the happiness of the mother verse that of its fetus is quite likely a fetus does not yet experience happiness or pain (depending on how developed it is), so killing it is not infringing on its happiness, just it future/potential happiness. And what is potential happiness verse the real present happiness of the hostess?

That's kind of taking morality to new lows since we don't , at least at the moment, endorse killing people statistically inclined to be criminals and saying they are better off that way.

Ah but again a fetus is not a person, so the moral value of killing statistically inclined people verse fetuses is very different.

Actually I think contingency is a poor model for granting the reins of power and actually is a notion that runs contrary to many things we hold as valuable to a sane civilization.

And those many things would be? Again this is not argued as the singular reason for, but part of a composite ethical system for abortion, viability is only part of it.

granted.
Actually I think the whole abortion issue is kind of the default position of a society that has screwed up on so many levels, ranging from the idealization of the sexual act as one of self expression that, far from bearing any relationship to responsible parenthood, is vehemently opposed to it and also economic models that postulate pregnancy as "economic/social suicide).

If this is how society has become, and I disagree if you read any breeder blogs and so forth you will see these people are absolutely obsessed with their spawn, and most of them obsessed with maintaining stable longer term monogamous relationship with their spouse, and having the perfect marriage with the perfect children (that most of them will never have). But no, assuming what you said is true, why not? The human race is at 7 billion plus with 2.65 more people ever second, everything should be done to minimize population growth so famine and resource wars don't become our means of population control again! If anti-"family values" get that job done so be it.

At the same time though I think it should be entirely provisional and always under review. I think there is always a tension in any society between when something should be legislatively upheld and when it is controlled by social stigma and taboo. As things stand at the moment, abortion is kind of somewhere between these two states .... and I guess it stands poised there to the degree that it is supported by willing and consenting parties (regardless whether we are talking about willing consenting pro-choices pushing for mandatory legislative precedents to protect their freedom of choice or willing, consenting medical professionals pushing for mandatory legislative precedents to protect their freedom of choice to refrain from being implicated in acts they find ethically questionable)

I don't feel social stigma and taboo should have not have any influence on public policy, that equal to allowing popular opinion, mob rule and irrationality to dictate laws! Remember is was social stigma to give blacks rights "by god them nigros could be drinking from Our water fountains and and defecting in Our toilets, we must have separate facilities for their ilk" or "Or them degenerate Mexicans are smoking this marijuana, we must make it illegal to spare our children from attack by sub-humans" and so forth.

Discussing issues of happiness and freedom does not look good if it is divorced or discussions of responsibility, consequence and obligation.

Yes, we should most definitely increase contraceptive use, based on the survey I cited if all the women who got abortions had used contraceptives consistently and correctly abortions would be down by a ~85%.

IOW we live in a world that affords freedom or happiness as contested, limited and competitive values that are controlled in a more or less civilized way by the degree that we are responsible within a certain framework of obligation and self control.
I recall some link I can't find at the moment discussing how authors of the american treatise of independence and freedom explain that this precept will only be effective amongst a moral population capable of self control .... otherwise its just a fast track to suffering.
Infact there are many discussions that happiness divorced of a service attitude to others is simply superficial embellishment of sensory activity that is incapable of establishing any sense of worth or value.

Universal self control and self control enough for civilization to progress are different things. Abortions if anything benefits society, in fact I would say it is the responsibility of single unwed mothers of limited education, income and even lacking intellect to abort, for the benefit of society! More so if you know many Millennial as I do, then you would see that altruism is common among them and the idea that giving to others happiness gives ourselves happiness, I did peace corps for example. So the present generation is not devoid of idea of social responsibility or responsibility to others, your thinking 1980's Yuppies or Ayn Rand followers.
 
You seem to be contrasting quality of life with intrinsic value, but there is an intersection at potential quality of life, which is inherent. You also seem to be making the rather questionable point that quality trumps inherent potential, when the quality impairment to one life is temporary in exchange for a potentially full, and not completely without quality, life.

Potential quality is usually inferior to known quality of life: the known life of the mother verse the far more unknown potential life of the fetus.

No one is "forced to raise a child", but pro-choicers often seem to gloss over the option to put a child up for adoption. And statistics ensure that some relatively or wholly quality lives are necessarily aborted.

Then they are forced to grow a child and birth it. More so adaption would not be feasible if every abortion was converted to adaption instead: there would not be enough willing adaptive parents.

You seem to be neglecting the weight a full potential life has on the temporary inconvenience of another.

Why when a statistically fuller potential life can be made years later when the mother (and father) are ready? And I would not call growing, birthing, raising a child "temporary inconvenience" that is a life changing, even life devastating event that some never recover from, feeling for the rest of their lives that that little brat stole their future, the future they wanted replace with having to raise that child.

But you have not engaged any of my arguments about personhood so far, so I will assume this post really only exists to reestablish your pro-choice credentials.

Sure why not, honestly its hard to follow this thread, so what argument of personhood are you talking about?
 
Potential quality is usually inferior to known quality of life: the known life of the mother verse the far more unknown potential life of the fetus.

Then they are forced to grow a child and birth it. More so adaption would not be feasible if every abortion was converted to adaption instead: there would not be enough willing adaptive parents.

Why when a statistically fuller potential life can be made years later when the mother (and father) are ready? And I would not call growing, birthing, raising a child "temporary inconvenience" that is a life changing, even life devastating event that some never recover from, feeling for the rest of their lives that that little brat stole their future, the future they wanted replace with having to raise that child.

Sure why not, honestly its hard to follow this thread, so what argument of personhood are you talking about?
I too have the same problem you deal with; what exactly is personhood anyhow? Who decides what it means and what gives them the right to do so?

So here are a few thoughts that this thread has brought up for me.

That usual crap about unwanted children can be adopted, yeah right tell that to my foster kids who aged out of the system after having been moved from one foster home to the next throughout their entire lives. I have yet to meet all those right-to-lifers who have done one thing to make their lives any better. Would it not be reasonable to assume that since they are so invested in the prevention of abortions that they would be the first ones to step up and open their homes to children in need of homes? Then again, if all life is sacred why do they not also speak out against war and the death penalty? Or is this what personhood is about? Selective criteria to be determined by the self-righteous?

And of course, contraception for women is the answer. The problem is in the US this is a political hot button for all those who are too dumb to deal with real issues pertaining poverty, crime, pollution, wars abroad, supremacy groups and gangs, you know, stuff that affects us all.

But why don’t men take the pill and deal with the side effects including stroke, and all those wonderful things a screwed up hormone level can do to you? Oh, how about having to fight all those self-righteous politicians who want to make our lives even more miserable and stop insurance coverage and/or make this such a fraught moral issue that most women cannot even get contraceptives because they cannot afford them and/or are too ashamed to use them. Just listen to that idiot Huckabee go on about how affordable contraception makes us into libido crazed democratic pawns. Yet men just smile and consider it a female problem. Damn straight it is, we are the ones stuck with pregnancies we do not want and cannot afford. Sorry, I forgot, there is adoption. Oh yeah, too bad nobody wants kids that are no longer infants.

And those of you who never had to carry a child to term, give birth to it and worry about health issues, feeding it, providing shelter and food, and most importantly safety, don’t talk about things you know nothing about. You really want to know about the quality of life personhood thing? Ask those kids in my other place of employment—jail. Yes, some of them actually have children too, some even more than one—especially the boys since this makes them men, they get as many girls pregnant as they can talk into it.

Women don’t mind taking contraceptives when they are available and affordable. We know what unplanned pregnancies can do to us and our lives. And before any of you start in on how irresponsible women are who do get pregnant, then ask yourself exactly how many of them got pregnant by themselves? You know, all alone?
 
A fetus is not a person for several reasons:
1) it is not conscious (arguable depending on stage of development)
2) it is not an independent organism: must live off mother directly in order to survive, of course this premise disappears when the fetus become technically viable.
3) Is devoid of any knowledge of realty or interaction with our society.

Personhood can also be considered a gradient, that is why a child does not have all the rights of an adult, as such a fetus is less of a person then adult or even a child, because has none of the above. But it maybe valid to give a fetus some rights, such as the right not to be experimented on or be conceive and grown for profit.

The Male pill I think is a great idea, but for some reason never developed as fast or as vigorously as female birth control, but many passive male contraceptives are in advance development

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzliaMEIqjM

But anyways I was referring to a survey that showed most women who get abortions did not use birth control or did not use it consistently, sure consequently the man did not use contraceptive, but no moral judgement is being place on either of these people, only that the easiest way to reduce abortions is to up contraceptive use.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
 
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As I mentioned earlier, contingency is a poor model for establishing personhood ... since its kind of intrinsic to what we value in civilization.
Hell, even you frown on abortions performed after 25 weeks, which involve the same model of contingency.
Still not for me to decide. Women are individuals with individual rights who are more than capable of deciding what they want and do not want.

So, in what way does it move outside of this model of contingency in 20 or so weeks?
I don't know LG. When did you move outside of this model of contingency?


well, I don't go around demanding resources be used to fully legitimize the extermination (in a practically unregulated manner) of people who are not capable of independent existence (including pregnant women) , if that's what you mean

:shrug:
Of course. How dare women have access to safe health care.


Exclusively factoring in only the whim of the person wielding the upper hand of power hardly sounds like effective triage managament
It is her body. It is thus, her decision. No one is ever going to be able to force you to have something growing in it without your consent or permission.



Syne said:
It has nothing to do with access to contraceptives, only who is forced to pay for it or tacitly endorse it. So you have conflated a religious freedom issue with being against contraceptives. Typical intellectual dishonesty.
Actually it does. Contraceptives classifies as a drug and medication. To declare that one's religious practices exclude medication because *gasp* it might prevent a woman from conceiving is attempting to limit access to that medication, by forcing women to pay more for said medication. If they were for contraceptive use, they would be encouraging affordable access to birth control pills. Not trying to limit it.

"Non-viability" is NOT "a few circumstances". Most abortions are justified as being "non-viable". The complete opposite of "a few".
The greater majority of abortions happen before 12 weeks. Goodluck trying to argue they are viable.

Defense of vulnerable life is not extreme, or do you equally berate PETA?
Yes I do. I have never been a fan of PETA.

You simply call it extreme because you disagree with what is considered life. Arbitrary semantics does not make your opposition extreme, while your propaganda and ad hominems does make you so.
I call it extreme because like all extremists, pro-life groups expect others to bow to their beliefs, even if it means women have to die as a result. I call it extreme because you have a bunch of religious groups and political groups who are trying to control women's lives and their determination over their own bodies, so much so, that they are willing to murder innocent people for their beliefs. In that regard, they are no different to the terrorist groups the West has been engaging in its war on terror for the last decade.

I advocate for self determination and respecting a woman's right to choose what is right for her. You advocate denying women the right to safe health care if her choice does not agree with your personal beliefs.

We know the result of making abortion illegal. Women die. Lots of women die. Which is what makes the pro-life groups who wish to deny women their rights over their own bodies extremists. Not to mention dishonest and hypocritical. When it comes to forking out money, they are quick to deny "life" and "personhood".

But heaven forbid we correctly label certain behaviours and actions correctly, lest we offend the offensive.
 
It has nothing to do with access to contraceptives, only who is forced to pay for it or tacitly endorse it. So you have conflated a religious freedom issue with being against contraceptives. Typical intellectual dishonesty.
Actually it does. Contraceptives classifies as a drug and medication. To declare that one's religious practices exclude medication because *gasp* it might prevent a woman from conceiving is attempting to limit access to that medication, by forcing women to pay more for said medication. If they were for contraceptive use, they would be encouraging affordable access to birth control pills. Not trying to limit it.

No, some religious beliefs preclude contraception, so as a protection of religious freedom, other religious people who do otherwise promote contraception also promote the right of religious people to follow their beliefs (which include not contributing to something they deem wrong).

Why are you not advocating a government funded contraceptive program? You know, instead of making up bullshit about issues that are obviously over your head.

"Non-viability" is NOT "a few circumstances". Most abortions are justified as being "non-viable". The complete opposite of "a few".
The greater majority of abortions happen before 12 weeks. Goodluck trying to argue they are viable.

Do you even read what you write? I said "non-viable" was the most common justification for abortion.

Defense of vulnerable life is not extreme, or do you equally berate PETA?
Yes I do. I have never been a fan of PETA.

So you are just callous to all vulnerable life. Got it.

You simply call it extreme because you disagree with what is considered life. Arbitrary semantics does not make your opposition extreme, while your propaganda and ad hominems does make you so.
I call it extreme because like all extremists, pro-life groups expect others to bow to their beliefs, even if it means women have to die as a result. I call it extreme because you have a bunch of religious groups and political groups who are trying to control women's lives and their determination over their own bodies, so much so, that they are willing to murder innocent people for their beliefs. In that regard, they are no different to the terrorist groups the West has been engaging in its war on terror for the last decade.

I advocate for self determination and respecting a woman's right to choose what is right for her. You advocate denying women the right to safe health care if her choice does not agree with your personal beliefs.

We know the result of making abortion illegal. Women die. Lots of women die. Which is what makes the pro-life groups who wish to deny women their rights over their own bodies extremists. Not to mention dishonest and hypocritical. When it comes to forking out money, they are quick to deny "life" and "personhood".

This is called propaganda. "Terrorists"? Really?

Holding people accountable for their actions is a fairly common legal consideration. You continue to tout women's control, yet only make excuses for why they do not seem to exercise such control in the matter of contraceptives. How many women who "cannot afford contraceptives" then manage to find the money for an abortion?

And actually, we do not know what more restricted access to abortion would do, as it has been so long since Roe v. Wade and many advances in contraception (including emergency contraception) have since occurred. It could incentivize contraceptive use.

And your little story about a suit against a Catholic hospital is a red herring. Of course their lawyer is going to use the legal definition of personhood, as defined by abortion law, to win. That is what lawyers do. What their lawyers says is not necessary their view.
 
Still not for me to decide. Women are individuals with individual rights who are more than capable of deciding what they want and do not want.
The problem is that individual decisions come under scrutiny when they impeach on what is available to other individuals.


I don't know LG. When did you move outside of this model of contingency?
that's the thing about living in a civilized society : nobody does.
Not even you can talk of provision for the service of abortion without the acquiesce of power.


:shrug:





Of course. How dare women have access to safe health care.
safe for whom?



It is her body. It is thus, her decision. No one is ever going to be able to force you to have something growing in it without your consent or permission.
and as I said, if valid decision making is only analyzed in terms of those with the reins of power, then suddenly you undercut a tenet of civilized society.
:shrug:
 
No, some religious beliefs preclude contraception, so as a protection of religious freedom, other religious people who do otherwise promote contraception also promote the right of religious people to follow their beliefs (which include not contributing to something they deem wrong).

Why are you not advocating a government funded contraceptive program? You know, instead of making up bullshit about issues that are obviously over your head.



Do you even read what you write? I said "non-viable" was the most common justification for abortion.



So you are just callous to all vulnerable life. Got it.



This is called propaganda. "Terrorists"? Really?

Holding people accountable for their actions is a fairly common legal consideration. You continue to tout women's control, yet only make excuses for why they do not seem to exercise such control in the matter of contraceptives. How many women who "cannot afford contraceptives" then manage to find the money for an abortion?

And actually, we do not know what more restricted access to abortion would do, as it has been so long since Roe v. Wade and many advances in contraception (including emergency contraception) have since occurred. It could incentivize contraceptive use.

And your little story about a suit against a Catholic hospital is a red herring. Of course their lawyer is going to use the legal definition of personhood, as defined by abortion law, to win. That is what lawyers do. What their lawyers says is not necessary their view.
Firstly, terrorists who bomb abortion and reproductive health care clinics and who set out to murder its staff of doctors and nurses are classified as terrorists. So yes, terrorists.

Secondly, how do you know that I do not advocate for Government funded contraceptives? I think it should be funded, as well as comprehensive sex education and counseling for women and girls who need help. I also believe that girls should be able to access contraception and contraceptive pills. I also believe emergency contraception should be much more widely available and over the counter.

Thirdly, I am firm believer of women having access to safe reproductive health care, without a 'responsibility test', in other words, if a woman falls pregnant and she is unsure or sure about what she wants, then she should have access to safe health care. Health care should not be conditional on whether a woman was "responsible" or not. If we were to apply your moronic example, then a person who is irresponsible and falls and breaks a limb would be denied safe and comprehensive health care because they were irresponsible. Whether a woman is irresponsible or not is beside the point. But that is the point you consistently miss and instead prefer to blame women for being irresponsible for having fallen pregnant in the first place. Let me repeat it, so that you understand.. Women deserve comprehensive and safe health care, as do men.

If you are going to claim that "we do not know what more restricted access to abortion would do", then you only have to look at countries that have such restrictions in place. The World Health Organisation refer to lack of safe and legal abortions as a pandemic, because of the tens of thousands of women who die every year and the millions who are permanently affected by complications from unsafe abortions:

Every year, about 19–20 million abortions are done by individuals without the requisite skills, or in environments below minimum medical standards, or both. Nearly all unsafe abortions (97%) are in developing countries. An estimated 68 000 women die as a result, and millions more have complications, many permanent. Important causes of death include haemorrhage, infection and poisoning.



Unsafe abortion mainly endangers women in developing countries where abortion is highly restricted by law and countries where, although legally permitted, safe abortion is not easily accessible. In these settings, women faced with an unintended pregnancy often self-induce abortions or obtain clandestine abortions from medical practitioners, paramedical workers, or traditional healers. By contrast, legal abortion in industrialised nations has emerged as one of the safest procedures in contemporary medical practice, with minimum morbidity and a negligible risk of death.




Perhaps you can explain why you feel women should be putting their lives at risk because of the political and religious beliefs of others?

As for what you deem to be a "red herring", it was a clear indication that pro-life only matters when it affects others and when the Church was faced with having to part with its money, it suddenly changed its ideology that life began at conception to avoid paying, which just goes to show the hypocrisy of the whole movement.
 
Umm.. When not all loons are birds...

No, you are. All the time. You want people to be robots. To think, feel, speak and act precisely the way you want them to.

Wynn said:
Will the raping never end?

I guess you can't back down now from the abuse, you've gone too far.


What in the hell are you on about?
 
Is there any intrinsic connection between the sentences you post and reality?

No, seriously, I want you to document that one. Go for it.
What happens when people don't think, feel, speak and act as Bells thinks they should? Bells gets angry. Bells judges them severely. Bells accuses them of psychopathology.
It has to be Bells' way - or it's the highway.


It would help if your trolling could actually hide behind the pretense of merit that comes with not being incomprehensible. As with Wynn, I want you to document that one, although in this case there is the additional need to explain what the hell you actually mean.

I would think that after forty years, the anti-abortion movement could come up with better arguments than rhetorical sleights and open silliness. I mean, it's one thing that yes, you have the right to say such stupid things.

But, to the other, you are emblematic of the problem.
See, I don't actually exist for you. "I" - that which you refer to as "you" when you direct your words at me - am a mere figment of your imagination.

You ascribe to me a position I don't hold, and then you demand me to defend it, and you judge me for it.

You do not allow for me. You do not allow for an other.

In the same way that you don't allow for the personhood of the unborn.




What in the hell are you on about?

What, oh what, indeed.

Bah, I am such an optimist.
 
Perhaps you can explain why you feel women should be putting their lives at risk because of the political and religious beliefs of others?
The question is, why are they doing this already?

Why do women - and people in general, men, too - put their lives at risk because of the political and religious beliefs of others?

Why are people submitting to pressure from others?

Why do people internalize the political and religious beliefs of others and then consider them their own?
 
What happens when people don't think, feel, speak and act as Bells thinks they should? Bells gets angry. Bells judges them severely. Bells accuses them of psychopathology.
It has to be Bells' way - or it's the highway.



See, I don't actually exist for you. "I" - that which you refer to as "you" when you direct your words at me - am a mere figment of your imagination.

You ascribe to me a position I don't hold, and then you demand me to defend it, and you judge me for it.
First you say this...

And then you say:

In the same way that you don't allow for the personhood of the unborn.
Which position do you hold again?

You do not allow for me. You do not allow for an other.

Wait.. Are you angry because I thought it was LG that came up with the triage model?

What, oh what, indeed.

Bah, I am such an optimist.
You do realise none of us exist in your head, yes?

The question is, why are they doing this already?

Why do women - and people in general, men, too - put their lives at risk because of the political and religious beliefs of others?
Huh?

Women are dying because they do not have access to adequate health care. In other words, without access to safe and legal abortions, they are having to resort to illegal abortions or other methods that risk their lives.

Why are people submitting to pressure from others?
Ermm it is the pressure from others that has resulted in women not being able to access safe health care. Perhaps you should ask pro-lifer's that question.

Why do people internalize the political and religious beliefs of others and then consider them their own?
*Facepalm*..

Why? Who is holding a gun to your head, threatening to pull the trigger, if you don't have sex?
Why is sex assigned the status of a need?

Yes. Telling people to just not have sex is a very viable solution.
 
First you say this...

And then you say:


Which position do you hold again?
What seems to be the problem?

I am person, you are a person, the unborn is a person.


Wait.. Are you angry because I thought it was LG that came up with the triage model?
Huh? No.


You do realise none of us exist in your head, yes?
I wonder if you realize that others don't exist merely in your head.


Women are dying because they do not have access to adequate health care. In other words, without access to safe and legal abortions, they are having to resort to illegal abortions or other methods that risk their lives.
Why? Who is threatening to kill them if they don't have sex to begin with?


Ermm it is the pressure from others that has resulted in women not being able to access safe health care. Perhaps you should ask pro-lifer's that question.
And people like you are pressuring others to have sex. You have repeatedly stated that having sex is a mark of normalcy. "Have sex or risk being branded as a loser and abnormal."
People will go to great lengths in an effort to avoid being stigmatized.


*Facepalm*..
Were you born with the conviction that people who don't have sex are psychopaths?
Or was that convinction something you developed later, possibly by internalizing the conviction of other people that not having sex makes one a loser etc.?


Yes. Telling people to just not have sex is a very viable solution.
There goes your imagination again.
Nobody in this thread is telling people not to have sex.
Just that part of the whole problem around abortion may be that people are engaging in sex because of societal pressure, and not because they would actually want to.
 
What seems to be the problem?

I am person, you are a person, the unborn is a person.

We can make sure we convey onto you, the exact same level of personhood the "unborn" have.

Hell, we can even treat you like an "unborn" and pretend you are not here and cannot hear, speak or understand (which wouldn't be a huge stretch right now), which would also mean that we can pass you naturally, as often happens with "unborn persons".

Which would you prefer?

I wonder if you realize that others don't exist merely in your head.
Is this the part where I follow the same IQ of your high school argument and say 'no you'?

Why? Who is threatening to kill them if they don't have sex to begin with?

Trolling and stupidity at its best, Wynn.

And people like you are pressuring others to have sex.
Where have I done that?

How have I done that?

You have repeatedly stated that having sex is a mark of normalcy.
Well sex is a normal part of life. You wouldn't be here if it weren't for sex.

Have sex or risk being branded as a loser and abnormal.
Can you link where I said that please?

People will go to great lengths in an effort to avoid being stigmatized.
Again, who is forcing women to have sex and stigmatizing them if they do not wish to have sex?

Were you born with the conviction that people who don't have sex are psychopaths?
Of course not. Don't be silly. I think you are a psychopath whether you have sex or not.:shrug:

Or was that convinction something you developed later, possibly by internalizing the conviction of other people that not having sex makes one a loser etc.?
I am still trying to figure out how or why you believe that I said that if you do not have sex you are a loser. Can you please link it?

Or are you just making more crap up again?

There goes your imagination again.
Nobody in this thread is telling people not to have sex.
Just that part of the whole problem around abortion may be that people are engaging in sex because of societal pressure, and not because they would actually want to.
Wow okay.. More trolling.

Do you think no one reads your posts fully? Have you suffered some form of brain injury that has resulted in extreme short term memory lost? Or are you scraping the bottom of the barrel of trolling, whining that I am apparently pressuring people to have sex based on your own fantasies and need to play the victim to fit into your bizarre fantasies?

You have spent this last post whining because you feel that I am apparently pressuring people to have sex, and even quoted something and attributed it to me in your response, and then made some even more bizarre claim that the problem with abortion is that people are engaging in sex because of societal pressure and not because they want to. I don't know what reality you believe you exist in, but you have not just taken the ball and run, but you have taken it and lept off a cliff to nowhere.

No, seriously, what the hell are you even on about?
 
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