Redux: Rape, Abortion, and "Personhood"

Do I support the proposition? (see post #2)


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Still can't answer those very simple questions?
lol
will the irony never end ?


Tell me LG, should women be able to access safe and legal abortions? Yes or No?

That depends whether you are inflating this to all women in all circumstances ...

Should women be forced to endure a pregnancy against their will? Yes or no?
Once again, that depends whether you are inflating this to all women in all pregnancies

In short, until you can bring yourself to discuss triage models, you are only bringing your imagination to this discussion and vehemently rejecting any intruders
:shrug:

Look at the case of the 14 year old girl, discussed above, who fell pregnant after being raped by her step-father. Should she be forced, against her will, to have a child to her rapist? Yes or no?
as I said, that depends on what grounds you think killing a child born from rape moves in the direction of solving the problems presented by all parties involved - namely the mother and the child.


Why do dodge these questions LG?
So which parties do you think could be held accountable for her having developed cerebral palsy?

(thanks in advance, slobberchops ;)


I mean, reading your responses, you are enough of a sadist that you would be willing to punish a 14 year old rape victim to force her to endure 9 months of pregnancy and then give birth to her rapist child to placate your religious views. Are your views of women so low that that is all they are? Incubators?
I wasn't aware that refraining from killing children born out of rape required an extensive religious ideology.
Feel free to expand your (mis)conception.

I have to ask, did you read this thread's topic? "Redux: Rape, Abortion and "Personhood"" ... So your accusation of "red-herring" in discussing the plight of a rape victim in a subject about rape and abortion shows the level of your dishonesty in your continued attempt to dodge the questions.
Only because you use it as a cathartic excuse to avoid the other two categories - namely abortion and personhood.


Not surprising really, since you are such a troll.
lol
given that the thread begins by acknowledging the personhood of the foetus, its more poignant to ask why you can't even theoretically manage this when presenting your train of thought on the matter

Perhaps you should move to El Salvador. Seems like just the place for you.
perhaps you should pay attention to things people actually say instead of pulling stuff out of your arse for the sake of giving your inflatable strawmen something to combat.
:shrug:
 
Oh for goodness sake. Still dodging and trolling and trying to take the subject of this thread off course to suit your religious pro-life stance..

Ms Jessen claims that her biological mother had a late term saline abortion, which apparently resulted in a lack of oxygen, which she claims caused her cerebral palsy. She claims this because her adoptive mother told her this. I have yet to see any proof that her claims are actually true. Moving on..

A saline abortion is one where saline is injected into the amniotic sac and the cervix is then dilated.

Now she claims this occurred during the 30th week of pregnancy. Saline abortions are usually done much earlier than that, usually before the 24th week of pregnancy. There is also the fact that she was born without any burns, which would have been there with a saline abortion. Also, there is absolutely no proof that she would not have cerebral palsy if her biological mother had not attempted to abort her, since cerebral palsy is something that can occur during pregnancy, birth or even after the birth. So it is more than likely that she would have had it anyway.

In 13 out of 14 cases of cerebral palsy in Australia, the brain injury leading to cerebral palsy occurs either in the uterus (while the mother is pregnant) or before 1 month of age.

Now you can try and pretty this up any way you like, but that is the reality of Ms Jessen's condition. Yes, I know, it doesn't make for good reading for pro-lifer's if Ms Jessen's story is put in a more accurate perspective.

So stop trolling and lying and answer the question and discuss the topic of this thread. Hard for you, I know, but try to stop being a troll. Just once. For me. Consider it a birthday present.
 
In the model of triage, granting personhood to the unborn, from conception to birth, does not lead to absurd consequences in those cases that you are so concerned about - namely, in cases of severe pregnancy complications, rape, incest, miscarriage.[/I]
LG, how would your proposed "triage model" even differentiate cases of rape or incest? Precisely how would the protocols differ in those cases from other pregnancies involving healthy mothers and fetuses? If they would differ, pray tell, why? I don't understand the logic that you would use to distinguish these cases based solely on the parents' relationship. I've seen you argue this "triage" stuff before and I've never seen you address this...
 
The Crusty Cult in the New Century

Syne said:

So...let me see if I have this straight. Because men cannot get pregnant women should have unimpeded choice regardless of any consideration of personhood?

I would call that a swing and a miss. I don't know, call it strike one; it doesn't really matter, since we're not actually playing baseball. Indeed, we might as well be curling.

Jokes aside, though, you're demonstrating the problem. The underlying question is the relationship of personhoods, yet the one thing you won't do is settle in that tangle and help people pick it apart. Jumping to the extreme in order to draw the discussion away from that central point is certainly effective if your purpose is to avoid, suppress, or obscure the discussion, but it does nothing toward untangling the knot.

The whole question of men getting pregnant arose in the context of whether or not the anti-abortion movement is misogynistic.

As to unimpeded choice, that is certainly an anchor point, but society has already accepted this is not the acceptable. Even pro-choicers balk at some of the extreme fantasies invented by the anti-abortion crowd, but the fundamental difference there is between finding a functional resolution and religiously-driven absolutism.

Meanwhile, with a proposition on record to formalize the suspension of women's human rights in order to protect the unborn, anti-abortionists are still retreating to absolutist straw men. Or, to put it bluntly, there is a reason I don't support my own proposition. Two, actually, but since one is that a woman's rights aren't mine to bargain away, we can set that aside for the sake of argument. What remains is that I simply don't trust the anti-abortion cult. Reality has no place in their worldview. The humanity of women has no apparent place in their worldview.

Bells has offered examples of the problem in both the developing and industrialized world. And given that I live in the U.S., where candidates for public office, including a presidential primary contender, find it appropriate to be the arbiters of what is or isn't a "real" or "legitimate" rape. Furthermore, given the anti-abortion cult's devotion to bogus medical theories—Rep. Akin got his magic ninja rape antibody line from the former head of National Right to Life (and founder of International Right to Life Federation), a medical doctor who used his credentials to deceive people and thus receive praise from the 2012 Republican presidential candidate—the less of women's human rights we leave to the judgment of misogynists, the better.

The bottom line is that the anti-abortion cult is simply not trustworthy; they cannot be expected to conduct themselves honestly. Part of this is the changing conscience of the society; like so many other Christian-derived public policy standards, the puritan strain is finally starting to break in American society. And, as in so many social policy concerns, the obsessive prudery is cracking up under the neurotic strain.

To wit, you leap back to absolutes in a discussion intended to explore a declared gray zone. This is somewhat expected, as the risks of exploration always seem greater than the rewards of discovery.

And as the culture finds itself more and more empowered to resist the straw men and magic ninja faeries of the anti-abortion pantheon, the cult is not adapting well. I would expect that when this issue is settled—in favor of women's humanity over that of a blastocyst—part of the diagnosis will be complacency. As with opposition to homosexuality, safe sex, birth control, teen sexual activity, and however many other routes our twenty-first century puritans have discovered to obsess themselves with the idea of other people having sex, the cult does not seem to have been ready for the political ground to shift beneath their feet. They have held out on the same arguments for as long as possible, and as the utterly dishonest core of what the anti-abortion cult actually believes is exposed to daylight, they are, like their fellows—and, in many cases, they are their own fellows, so the reasons why make sense—caught flat-footed in an earthquake, and instead of sheltering under their desks, they're shouting at everyone else that there is no tremor.

Right now, the cult finds itself at a crossroads. It can keep insisting on its clearly obsolete superstitions, and thus find itself left behind as racists and homophobes are experiencing in the twenty-first century; or it can try to regroup and recalculate its course in order to navigate the unexpectedly changing landscape.
 
The bottom line is that the anti-abortion cult is simply not trustworthy; they cannot be expected to conduct themselves honestly.

I've found that neither the anti-abortion nor the pro-abortion cults can be trusted. They are both primarily political organizations, and in general see the ends (outlawing abortion completely or ensuring zero restrictions on it) as always worth the means (showing pictures of dead fetuses to expectant mothers, mandating transvaginal ultrasounds, touting abortions as "happy endings".) I don't generally heed extremists on either side.
 
I've found that neither the anti-abortion nor the pro-abortion cults can be trusted. They are both primarily political organizations, and in general see the ends (outlawing abortion completely or ensuring zero restrictions on it) as always worth the means (showing pictures of dead fetuses to expectant mothers, mandating transvaginal ultrasounds, touting abortions as "happy endings".) I don't generally heed extremists on either side.

Well said.
 
That Was ... Expected ... Sort Of

Billvon said:

I've found that neither the anti-abortion nor the pro-abortion cults can be trusted. They are both primarily political organizations, and in general see the ends (outlawing abortion completely or ensuring zero restrictions on it) as always worth the means (showing pictures of dead fetuses to expectant mothers, mandating transvaginal ultrasounds, touting abortions as "happy endings".) I don't generally heed extremists on either side.

A dose of rubber-glue and predictable avoidance of the central thread to be unraveled?

Color me not surprised.
 
I've found that neither the anti-abortion nor the pro-abortion cults can be trusted. They are both primarily political organizations, and in general see the ends (outlawing abortion completely or ensuring zero restrictions on it) as always worth the means (showing pictures of dead fetuses to expectant mothers, mandating transvaginal ultrasounds, touting abortions as "happy endings".) I don't generally heed extremists on either side.

That sort of sums it up, look no further then here to see the very idea of restricting abortions as something that causes women to "loses all basic and fundamental human rights". Why do these issue get so emotional, politicized and fallacious, can't we have a simple discussion about what rights a fetus should have, if any and why?
 
Syne said:
So...let me see if I have this straight. Because men cannot get pregnant women should have unimpeded choice regardless of any consideration of personhood?
Jokes aside, though, you're demonstrating the problem. The underlying question is the relationship of personhoods, yet the one thing you won't do is settle in that tangle and help people pick it apart. Jumping to the extreme in order to draw the discussion away from that central point is certainly effective if your purpose is to avoid, suppress, or obscure the discussion, but it does nothing toward untangling the knot.

The whole question of men getting pregnant arose in the context of whether or not the anti-abortion movement is misogynistic.

I was just trying to ascertain your position, succinctly. My primary interest is the relative rights of personhoods.

As to unimpeded choice, that is certainly an anchor point, but society has already accepted this is not the acceptable. Even pro-choicers balk at some of the extreme fantasies invented by the anti-abortion crowd, but the fundamental difference there is between finding a functional resolution and religiously-driven absolutism.

Meanwhile, with a proposition on record to formalize the suspension of women's human rights in order to protect the unborn, anti-abortionists are still retreating to absolutist straw men. Or, to put it bluntly, there is a reason I don't support my own proposition. Two, actually, but since one is that a woman's rights aren't mine to bargain away, we can set that aside for the sake of argument. What remains is that I simply don't trust the anti-abortion cult. Reality has no place in their worldview. The humanity of women has no apparent place in their worldview.

Seems you are discounting a particular stance because its arguments are faulty, not because the stance itself has no merit.



Personhood
It is generally agreed that one person's freedom ends where it infringes on the rights of another. This is the crux of why the question of personhood is at issue. If personhood is intrinsic then it follows that it is so from conception (or more specifically, perhaps gastrulation, about 16 days after fertilization), as everything that will become any traits we define as personhood exist from that point. If personhood only occurs at physically independent existence then it is a circumstantial status contingent upon birth. In the former, the personhood would be held inviolate from the mother, as murder outweighs her rights, barring life-threatening health issues. In the latter, the mother would grant the personhood or not. So the question comes down to whether we believe that personhood can be granted by another human.

And the implication that a mother can either revoke an existing personhood or deny its origination altogether may have some consequences for personhood rights in general. If personhood can be revoked, who is to say only pregnant mothers have that right? If personhood is merely denied/granted, what is it about birth that imbues an organism with this somewhat mystical status that it cannot be later rescinded, at least by the one who granted it?

Abortion
The choice in question is preceded by the choice of behavior well-known to run a significant risk of pregnancy (and even with the advent of the morning after pill). Since that initial choice avoids the moral or philosophical quagmire, it is the less ambiguous choice. There is some merit to the idea that this initial choice has consequences that should not merely be evaded.

Rape
Rape usurps that initial choice. And rape is already covered by the general agreement that one person's freedom ends where it infringes on the rights of another, so we come full-circle.



If a mother can deny the personhood of the unborn then does rape change anything? Yes, there is personal violation that should be punished, but if one person can choose to avoid the consequences for their earlier behavior, why should any further consequences accrue to the other? And why should someone with the power to grant personhood be restricted in their ability to rescind that which they have granted? Does the personhood granted by choice suddenly become inviolate?

If the mother can revoke an existing personhood then is personhood generally revokable? If so, perhaps the rapist can, in some sense, revoke the personhood of the woman (through a similar use of force employed to revoke unborn personhood), but since that would unleash arbitrary revocation of personhood by force (might equals right), it would be unsustainable by any civilized society. But if personhood is generally revokable, but not entirely so, then the woman's rights can be temporarily suspended as well, to avoid the moral/philosophical problem, and the rapist held responsible for the entirety of the consequences.


It should be clear that those who believe that personhood is intrinsic operate under a larger moral conundrum. It should also be clear that those who believe personhood to be a granted status have no real reason to make any relevant issue of rape in the question of abortion.
 
Why do these issue get so emotional, politicized and fallacious, can't we have a simple discussion about what rights a fetus should have, if any and why?

I think because:

1) Some people follow the political angle of "must oppose anything that even APPEARS to support the other side! Compromise is the same as losing!" Anything not supporting their position 100% and it's ready, fire, aim. Tiassa, above, is a good example of that.

2) It's an inherently very emotional issue. We are programmed by evolution to protect our children. It's very hard to (for example) see a sonogram of a 25 week old fetus kicking and sucking his thumb and then think that elective abortion is a good idea. (Which of course is why anti-abortion activists push to make them mandatory.) And a couple who has had several miscarriages trying to have a baby is just not going to understand someone who claims that an abortion is a "happy ending."

3) Even in cases where the issue isn't "aborting a healthy baby" but just deciding when the fetus/child is going to die (ancephalic fetuses/thanatophoric dysplasia/SMA type 1) it's still a hugely emotional decision/issue for most people. Very few people look forward to decisions like that.

4) It has been pushed as a matter of faith by several religions, so some people have their spiritual guides (the priests/bishops/imams of their houses of worship) telling them what they must believe to be moral. That's hard to overcome.
 
Even if a women has the right to an abortion, that does not mean someone else is obliged to pay for her abortion. Passing the buck of obligation, crosses the line of what rights are. For example, we all have the right to bear arms, but do you think I should be able to force democrats to pay for my favorite guns, so I can practice my right? We can use the abortion template where the right allows us to forced those who do not agree, to have to pay. That is not how rights work.

Rights only go as far as not restricting behavior with respect to some biased standard. But a right says nothing about passing the financial obligation onto others so they lose rights and choice. If someone has the right to be pro-life. how does forcing them to pay for abortions, help that right? It take away the right to choose life. We have the right to pursue happiness. Does that mean I can take money away from others to practice my right?

Women who want the right to abortions, need to man up and take care of their own business. Women do not have the extra right to extort and take away the rights of others. The women could charge the guy who bangs them more, or take cash instead of drinks and dinner, so they can save up for their abortion. Then could take a security deposit before the deposit.

Maybe abortion is not a right since it does not play by the rules of rights. The work right may be one of those PC word game illusions that is opposite of what it appears; affordable care act.
 
Women who want the right to abortions, need to man up and take care of their own business. Women do not have the extra right to extort and take away the rights of others. The women could charge the guy who bangs them more, or take cash instead of drinks and dinner, so they can save up for their abortion. Then could take a security deposit before the deposit.
How much do you pay the women you fuck?

Enough to get rid of any potential offspring?

You do, however, bring up an interesting point in this whole debate. You do so by taking the misogynistic viewpoint even further. While the religious pro-life groups attempt to redefine rape and some have even gone so far as to deem a woman's life not worthy of consideration because well, she is 5 weeks pregnant, you go so far as to point out that women are mere commodities. Or more to the point, that their vaginas are mere commodities.

So, how much do you pay the women you fuck?
 
I think because:

1) Some people follow the political angle of "must oppose anything that even APPEARS to support the other side! Compromise is the same as losing!" Anything not supporting their position 100% and it's ready, fire, aim. Tiassa, above, is a good example of that.

2) It's an inherently very emotional issue. We are programmed by evolution to protect our children. It's very hard to (for example) see a sonogram of a 25 week old fetus kicking and sucking his thumb and then think that elective abortion is a good idea. (Which of course is why anti-abortion activists push to make them mandatory.) And a couple who has had several miscarriages trying to have a baby is just not going to understand someone who claims that an abortion is a "happy ending."

3) Even in cases where the issue isn't "aborting a healthy baby" but just deciding when the fetus/child is going to die (ancephalic fetuses/thanatophoric dysplasia/SMA type 1) it's still a hugely emotional decision/issue for most people. Very few people look forward to decisions like that.

4) It has been pushed as a matter of faith by several religions, so some people have their spiritual guides (the priests/bishops/imams of their houses of worship) telling them what they must believe to be moral. That's hard to overcome.

You know, the pro-life group use your 2) example quite a bit. And it is based on a false premise.

Because I can assure you, no woman would wait 8 or even 7 months and decide out of the blue to get an abortion for reasons pro-life groups try to claim, for convenience, etc. Because when you use the term "baby", it means that the child is viable and when you bring up the 25 week ultrasound of it sucking its thumb, this isn't emotive? Putting it in terms of asking if it's a good idea? What woman waits that long and has an abortion for reasons that are not medically necessary? There are some who don't even know or didn't know they were pregnant or others who are delayed by red tape and laws from accessing an abortion.

If you mean that women abort in the 1st trimester, then I dare you to hold and bring up an 18 week old foetus and call it a baby. It is that emotive language of "baby" when describing abortions that disgusts me in this debate, and you have the cheek to whine about the debate itself? Really?

Health issues aside, the underlying question should always be this..

Should women be forced to endure 9 months of pregnancy and all that entails, from restricting her diet, her movement, employment, etc and give birth - against her will? Yes or no?

If you think the answer to that is yes. I'll put it this way. Would you submit yourself to 9 months imprisonment and then an being tortured with pain to your genitals for 24+ hours, because my religious beliefs deem it necessary for you to endure it? Yes or no?
 
Even if a women has the right to an abortion, that does not mean someone else is obliged to pay for her abortion.

You could make a pretty good case that the guy that got her pregnant bears some of the responsibility.

For example, we all have the right to bear arms, but do you think I should be able to force democrats to pay for my favorite guns, so I can practice my right?

No, usually not. But democrats do indeed sometimes have to pay for the RESULTS of your gun ownership. When a gun owner shoots a cop, we all pay for his care. No one gets to say "well, I don't support all those gun rights, so I'm not paying taxes."

Likewise, abortion foes usually do not have to pay for anyone's abortion. But in an emergency situation, where the woman can't pay and the abortion can't wait? Then you don't get to say "well, I don't support abortion so I'm not paying taxes."
We can use the abortion template where the right allows us to forced those who do not agree, to have to pay. That is not how rights work.

You mean like my support of the Iraq war? I did not agree; I was forced to pay.

If someone has the right to be pro-life. how does forcing them to pay for abortions, help that right?

If someone has the right to be for peace, how does forcing them to pay for war help that right? Why should I have to pay for the medical care for a vet who fought in a war I didn't want?

Women who want the right to abortions, need to man up and take care of their own business.

And the men who get them pregnant.

Women do not have the extra right to extort and take away the rights of others.

Let's see. An abortion costs around $500. The Iraq war cost around $1 trillion. Looks like Bush took away a lot more of your rights than any woman ever will.

The women could charge the guy who bangs them more, or take cash instead of drinks and dinner, so they can save up for their abortion.

Hmm. Do the women you hang out with charge you?
 
Because when you use the term "baby", it means that the child is viable and when you bring up the 25 week ultrasound of it sucking its thumb, this isn't emotive?

It is emotive. That's the point. That's why it's an emotional and not a rational issue.

Putting it in terms of asking if it's a good idea? What woman waits that long and has an abortion for reasons that are not medically necessary?

Very few. About 10,000 women in the US get abortions after 20 weeks; some of them are for reasons other than medical. However, I suspect that you would object to banning such abortions, so it's likely you think it is important to continue to allow them.

If you mean that women abort in the 1st trimester, then I dare you to hold and bring up an 18 week old foetus and call it a baby.

We just got a sonogram of our 14 week old baby. I dare you to watch the video - with him kicking, scratching his cheek and rolling over - and say it's nothing like a baby.

It is that emotive language of "baby" when describing abortions that disgusts me in this debate, and you have the cheek to whine about the debate itself?

THAT WAS THE POINT. That is one of the many reasons it is an emotional argument rather than a rational one. Many people (us included) consider the fetus to be a baby. That might "disgust" you; that's OK with us. You can be disgusted all you like.

Health issues aside, the underlying question should always be this..

Should women be forced to endure 9 months of pregnancy and all that entails, from restricting her diet, her movement, employment, etc and give birth - against her will? Yes or no?

No.

If you think the answer to that is yes. I'll put it this way. Would you submit yourself to 9 months imprisonment and then an being tortured with pain to your genitals for 24+ hours, because my religious beliefs deem it necessary for you to endure it? Yes or no?

And here we see another reason the debate gets emotional. You just compared to conceiving and birthing a baby to being imprisoned and tortured. And you complain that the word "baby" is too emotionally laden?
 
If personhood is intrinsic then it follows that it is so from conception (or more specifically, perhaps gastrulation, about 16 days after fertilization), as everything that will become any traits we define as personhood exist from that point.
Interesting take there Syne. So you are saying that we are the person that we are irrespective of intrauterine influence because "everything that will become any traits we define as personhood exist from [conception]". Did I get that right?


If so, do you include cognitive functionality in the set of traits used to define "personhood"?

The intrauterine environment can significantly affect fetal brain development. Here we review our recent findings using animal models that mimic adverse intrauterine conditions which could exist during human pregnancy. We have focused on effects of both acute and chronic hypoxic and inflammatory insults. Relatively brief periods of hypoxemic compromise can have significant effects on the fetal brain causing neuronal loss and cerebral white matter damage.​
Neurosci Lett. 2004 May 6;361(1-3):111-4.
Brain development during fetal life: influences of the intra-uterine environment.
Rees S, Harding R.



How about sexual orientation?

Many people believe that sexual orientation (homosexuality vs. heterosexuality) is determined by education and social constraints. There are, however, a large number of studies indicating that prenatal factors have an important influence on this critical feature of human sexuality.​
Endocrinology. 2011 Aug;152(8):2937-47. doi: 10.1210/en.2011-0277. Epub 2011 Jun 21.
Minireview: Hormones and human sexual orientation.


I mean, surely you are not saying a person is gay or straight from conception are you?


As I'm sure you are aware, there are plenty more of these studies on the effects of neonatal influences on personality and later development. How do you reconcile this with your statement above? Interesting conundrum for you there...
 
wellwisher said:
Women who want the right to abortions, need to man up and take care of their own business. Women do not have the extra right to extort and take away the rights of others. The women could charge the guy who bangs them more, or take cash instead of drinks and dinner, so they can save up for their abortion. Then could take a security deposit before the deposit.
How much do you pay the women you fuck?

Enough to get rid of any potential offspring?

You do, however, bring up an interesting point in this whole debate. You do so by taking the misogynistic viewpoint even further. While the religious pro-life groups attempt to redefine rape and some have even gone so far as to deem a woman's life not worthy of consideration because well, she is 5 weeks pregnant, you go so far as to point out that women are mere commodities. Or more to the point, that their vaginas are mere commodities.

So, how much do you pay the women you fuck?
Good one Bells. But I think wellwisher's answer would include assertions to the effect that "Women that I associate with wouldn't want an abortion" or, even more likely "I would not permit any woman that I associate with to have an abortion." Sound about right?
 
We just got a sonogram of our 14 week old baby. I dare you to watch the video - with him kicking, scratching his cheek and rolling over - and say it's nothing like a baby.
I actually have several of such videos of my sons. I also have the pictures.

I also know that my personal views about those images should never ever force another woman to endure a pregnancy against her will. Abortion is a personal issue, and infringing on the rights of other women by forcing them to have a child they may not want is a human rights abuse.

THAT WAS THE POINT. That is one of the many reasons it is an emotional argument rather than a rational one. Many people (us included) consider the fetus to be a baby. That might "disgust" you; that's OK with us. You can be disgusted all you like.
We may think it a baby as much as we want. However no one should force another person to go through it if they do not want it or if they are ill, have been raped or been a victim of incest, etc. That disgusts me much more.

And here we see another reason the debate gets emotional. You just compared to conceiving and birthing a baby to being imprisoned and tortured. And you complain that the word "baby" is too emotionally laden?
Having endured 2 pregnancies, the second of which nearly saw me die in child birth, it is torture. You don't sleep, you are in pain, you are stressed beyond belief, not to mention if you suffer from a medical condition which may worsen because you are unable to take any of your medication that would otherwise keep you somewhat healthy, you get to the point where simply walking causes you tremendous amounts of pain - especially for women like me, who ended up with a bigger relaxin hit which saw my pelvis and lower back relax so much that I couldn't even sit down without being in screaming agony from week 17 of the pregnancy, let alone walking. Then of course we look at the fact that you cannot eat what you normally ate, if you ate ham, soft cheeses, sushi, salami, anything processed for that matter, certain herbs, herbal teas, coffee.. I won't even touch on the fear of walking into a chemist or health food store that was burning essential oils that could act as abortificants. Then of course comes the birth. Hours and hours of absolute pain, where the end result is either a mad dash to surgery or even more pain and out pops the baby. That's if you are lucky. If you are unlucky, you find yourself bleeding out and going into shock from the loss of blood and lapsing in and out of consciousness as the doctors and nurses are screaming at you to stay with them and being rushed into surgery and being told that they are going to do what they can to save you and hopefully your child too and waking up and being in intensive care for 2 days because you lost so much blood and you are still bleeding. That is if you are lucky and it happens in a hospital.. If it happens at home, you would die. Tell me that is not torturous. That is the reality of pregnancy and childbirth for many women.

Now, you think I and others should force women to go through any of this against their will? Really?

The issue with abortion and the debate is one of control. They don't give a crap about "babies". See how often right to lifers protest with their signs outside of courtrooms where mothers do murder their children or children go missing. They don't care about those children. They don't give a shit about them. Many of them drag their children and make them march for hours holding up signs outside of maternal health clinics instead of sending them to school, or letting them be children. So please, spare me. If pro-life and right to lifers want to protect and save babies, there are millions of babies starving to death around the world, others dying in horrific conditions because of war, famine, poverty. Put your money where your mouth is and actually save babies by providing for those live children in such conditions and stop forcing women to have "babies" against their will.
 
A past girlfriend of mine, who had aborted her first pregnancy and kept the second (neither mine), said that she absolutely loved everything about being pregnant (and looking forward to the next), and that the only real downside was that hospital staff would not let her move around during labor, which is a bit misogynistic that a woman just cannot possibly know what is good for herself (prompting her to swear off hospital births in the future). She was much more put out by the sleep schedule, breast pumping, etc. that followed. She was pressured/talked into the earlier abortion, had a "bad reaction" during the procedure, and afterwards the abortion staff told her that they should not have allowed the abortion.

Misogyny can work both ways. Women can be pressured into doing something they do not really want with justifications of social/economic consequences of being a single mother. Obviously safeguards were not in place to ensure that the woman was psychologically prepared to make such a decision, which is where sonograms enter the picture.
 
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