Redux: Rape, Abortion, and "Personhood"

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Exceptionally Misogynistic

ElectricFetus said:

How many women do you think just have abortions willy-nilly?

Stripping away political and other labels, this is one of the most pernicious evils of the democratic experiment. I mean, sure, you caught the point straight on—

"I believe that women should think twice before ending the life of the baby inside of them."

—but this is one of the things about our political discourse that blows my mind. Look at the astounding misogyny, the open hatred of women, about the necessary presupposition that women must be told to think carefully before having an abortion.

Yes, we know misogyny is an essential component of many significant political outlooks in our society, but it's time for the blatantly and willfully hateful ones to be excluded from the discourse. They have the right to say what they want; we have no obligation to listen to such gutter hatred.

"We should always excercise careful judgement before we end a human life."

Even acknowledging this sort of blind hatred is problematic. This brand of hatred ought to be attitude not grata.

Of all the things I'm going to waste time on, figuring out how to be nicer to our neighbor than he is being to over half our society while advising him just how low he's chosen to stoop just isn't one of them.

The fact that such open hatemongering is even acceptable in the discourse is an unfortunate condemnation of our allegedly exceptional society.
 
Tiassa,

Well that not proof of hate of women: they may only think women are fickle and impulsive... I'm just trying to play devils advocate here because honestly it is really hard for me to imagine, I assume most women would really think hard about an abortion, for the very least of all having someone scraping out your womb is not something I can imagine is consider lightly!

Perhaps though the pro-life people are blinded so much by the assumed person-hood of a fetus, that any rights of women are secondary, because anything else is murder in their minds. So maybe he means when they should think about it, that really they should consider how they are murdering a (potential) person. Thinking neutrally it is a reasonable question: who as more rights: a women right to choose or the child she is carrying "right to life", I would say any adult human being has more rights then a unborn one, to the point potential people can be morally killed at the leisure of their mother. It seems a no brain-er to me, but the pro-lifers have a logic that a fetus's "right to life" is more then a women's right to choice, and this may have nothing to do with hate of women rather it maybe about a love of potential people. I can't imagine why a potential person is so great though. Potential persons is not really that great a thing, its not hard for most women to conceive a child, the average couple has an 80% chance of getting pregnant in a year if no birth control is used, so I figure potential people are usually a dime a dozen. Abort one, just make another when wanted, it really requires no more effort then fornication! A baby requires a lot more effort, 9 months worth as well as hours of very painful labor, and of course a child requires years of hard work raising said child, eventually reaching adulthood and thus full value. Of course the flaw of that value gradient is that murdering a baby is not as bad as murdering an adult (and of course the fetus is valueless) unless we throw in some other value standards (like what kind of person murders a baby???) I think I can live with that kind of moral logic though.
 
Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way ....

ElectricFetus said:

Perhaps though the pro-life people are blinded so much by the assumed person-hood of a fetus, that any rights of women are secondary, because anything else is murder in their minds.

Aye, which is, if we go back to the original proposition, part of what I was hoping to discuss in this thread.
 
The Conservative Dream!

A court in Argentina is living the Conservative dream when it comes to rape, abortion and rights to one's body.

Argentina, being a fairly religious country, deems abortion to be illegal, with clear exceptions for rape, health of the mother, incest. In a case of rape, a Federal Court in Argentina held last year that rape victims who fell pregnant to their rapists no longer needed permission for an abortion and would not be punished for seeking an abortion. All the pregnant rape victim would need to do, according to the law in Argentina, is to provide a sworn statement in hospital that the pregnancy was a result of rape.

Enter a 14 year old girl, who lives in a Conservative part of the country, a region named Salto, a victim of child sex abuse by her step-father, who raped her. The 14 year old girl fell pregnant to her rapist step-father. Her mother then found out about the rape and pregnancy and took her daughter to the local hospital for an abortion. What happens next is appalling.


But a family court judge denied her petition to terminate her pregnancy, instead ordering her to give birth and surrender the baby for adoption.

Judge Victor Soria ruled that the right to life of the unborn child trumped the rights of the teen.

"There is a judge that is making my daughter have a baby that she does not want. It's horrible," the teen's mother told Argentine media.​


For the proponents of no choice and banning abortion in all instances, this is the reality. Forcing women and girls to endure a pregnancy, even ones that are the result of rape and incest, give birth and put the child up for adoption. This is the dream. And at the moment, that dream is forcing a 14 year old rape victim endure 9 months of pregnancy against her will and then ultimately forcing this 14 year old rape victim to give birth, against her will.

A Republican State Representative, named Jim Buchy, was recently interviewed about abortion for a documentary. Mr Buchy is all for banning abortion, very much pro-life, the only exception is to save the woman's life. In the interview, Mr Buchy was asked a very simple question. "What do you think makes a woman want to have an abortion?"...

Mr Buchy responds,

"Well, there's probably a lot of reasons... I'm not a woman so.. I'm thinking, if I'm a woman, why would I want to have an...."

He then claims it is about economics. Then comes the moment of truth. Mr Buchy admits that he does not know as he has never really thought about why a woman would want to have an abortion.

Yet he is actively working to ban all abortions in Ohio.

Why would a 14 year old girl, pregnant because she was raped by her step-father, possibly want to have an abortion? What could be her reasons?

Rep Buchy has made one thing clear. The men and women driving to ban abortions have never even considered why a woman or girl might want to have an abortion. The thought never really entered their minds. And the most reprehensible part of this is that it's men and women like this who claim they know better and should have a greater say in a woman's rights over her own body.
 
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Rep Buchy has made one thing clear. The men and women driving to ban abortions have never even considered why a woman or girl might want to have an abortion. The thought never really entered their minds. And the most reprehensible part of this is that it's men and women like this who claim they know better and should have a greater say in a woman's rights over her own body.

Again I think their thought structure is that the life of the unborn is worth more then the free-will of a person, it just happens that said person always had to be female due to biology: It may not be sexism at all just a very different ideology one personhood. Imagine a women wanted to kill her child, because she does not want to take care of it, we agree that that is wrong right? The prolifers just push the moral implications of "childhood" always back into utero.
 
Again I think their thought structure is that the life of the unborn is worth more then the free-will of a person, it just happens that said person always had to be female due to biology: It may not be sexism at all just a very different ideology one personhood. Imagine a women wanted to kill her child, because she does not want to take care of it, we agree that that is wrong right? The prolifers just push the moral implications of "childhood" always back into utero.

Well said.
 
A Note on Dysfunction

ElectricFetus said:

Again I think their thought structure is that the life of the unborn is worth more then the free-will of a person, it just happens that said person always had to be female due to biology: It may not be sexism at all just a very different ideology one personhood.

It's not that I specifically disagree. Rather, I would suggest that at some point people need to stop and think about what their beliefs actually mean to other people if realized.

That is to say, to the one, few on the anti-abortion side would admit to such open misogyny as to declare women reproductive factories. However, that they loathe such notions speaks nothing to the result of their beliefs if enacted as policy.

Basic Freudian ego defense can account for the gap. Witness, in this and similar discussions, the difficulty people have wrapping their heads around the issue of what such beliefs would do to women. That they can, in ego defence, deny, displace, intellectualize, project, rationalize, form reactions, and sublimate the chasm between their beliefs and their rejection of misogyny does not mean the beliefs, enacted as policy, would not have misogynistic effect.

At which point, we enter the discussion of what one intends versus what one does. This is, of course, a futile dimension; it is easy enough to suggest the drunk driver does not intend to drive drunk, but this is much different a context. In the end, this is a question of basic human rights: Does a woman have the right to control what goes on inside her own body?

It is one thing to answer, "No". But that is not what is happening. This discussion is consistently deflected to consideration of the unborn, and if the neurotic complex driving this behavior means one is incapable of accounting for the personhood of a woman, that person is not competent to be taking part in the discussion.

Look at this thread. Go back to the proposition. Look at the vote. The very question makes the anti-abortion people uncomfortable.

It's not that I specifically disagree. But, rather, it's time to do the same with this "accidental" sexism that we are trying to do with "accidental" racism. It needs to be eradicated. Such hatred has no place at the table in the public discourse.

Results are results, and if one wants to be divorced from unintended results of realizing beliefs, that ought to be a blatantly, forehead-smackingly apparent sign that the belief is not functionally valid.
____________________

Notes:

Heffner, Christopher L. "Ego Defense Mechanisms". Psychology 101. 2001. AllPsych.com. December 29, 2013. http://allpsych.com/psychology101/defenses.html
 
Let re-examine this for a moment. Pretend that both men and women could, on occasions, grow a teratoma that would eventually pop out a little baby. Now says you had one of these growing on you, would it not be your right to have it remove or not? The anti-abortionist claims NO that tumor-o-fetus is a life, and deserves life, you do not have a right to kill it just because it growing off you. You might argue they were oppressing you and all people like you capable of growing these little cancers to term because of a particular hate of you, but there not. Gender is un-important, the question is the same: does a unborn person's "right to life" trump its host right to control over their body? Its a difficult question for many because it requires developing a complex ethical justification for which one has the greater right. Let me ask you why does the women have the right to "murder" her unborn "child"? Why does a women's right to control her body override the supposed right to life of the unborn. This is not a deflections this is in fact fundamental to whole things: what rights does the unborn have (if any) over the mother.

I can answer those questions at length providing reasoning based on pragmatic neutral utilitarianism why a fetus does not have a right to life over the mother's right to "control her body", none of which resorts to the argument that a women has such a right simply because it would be sexist for her not too. Although my argument has the weakness of being aah "ageist" I can fix some of that with pragmatism (in order to prevent infanticide from being acceptable by my logic).

Likewise a pro-lifer could make a secular and rational argument for the fetus while simultaneously claiming women have equal rights to men in all regards except for no man, due to biology would be stuck in the unfortunately situation of having to yield rights to his fetus growing inside of him, but that men would be stripped of their right just as a women is, if biology would allow it. Although such pro-lifers are rare as most of them are simply pro-life for irrational theological reasons and don't actually think about this beyond "Jesus loves the children!", I would no doubt that many of them are in fact sexist and believe that a women's place is obedience to her husbands and to squeeze out babies and nothing more. All that though is distinguishable from central quagmire at the core of the pro-life/pro-choice debate: does the fetus have rights over the mother.
 
Abstraction and Muddle

If both sexes could have babies, abortion would be legal.

The problem with pretend is that while the what-if is certainly reasonable, it isn't real. The living result of a policy is, of course, more relevant to the human endeavor than that what-if.

But even in that what-if, the question of fetal rights over the parental unit still come up, and while you or I might have those longer answers to address the issue, the anti-abortionists retreat to appeals to emotion.

I mean, I've had these discussions with people who claim they are unable to tell the difference between two individuals and one individual physically attached to and leeching off another. No, really.

All of it falls away, though, compared to the result. And to look at a sexist result and accept it because it is ... er ... ah ... "nature", or something ... isn't right.

No man will ever be forced to carry a child to term. Would he? It is certainly an interesting question, though as I said I would expect abortion to be as legal as possible if both sexes could carry pregnancies. But such a question has little use to a fourteen year-old rape survivor forced by a court to carry a pregnancy to term. Or people might say the courts eventually figured out the bit about forced bedrest, but that came months late for the woman confined to a hospital room by judge's orders despite the lack of medical benefit. What of the fetal homicide laws used more often against mentally unstable women than the domestic abusers and other criminals alleged to be the targets of such bills when they passed?

I get that in the abstract this can be a non-sexist discussion, but it is also true that in reality, it is a sexist discussion. Inherently, fundamentally, and neurotically sexist.

There is always an abstract argument to be made that decontextualizes a reality; to wit, it is possible to make murder abstractly "not evil". Reality, however, has a nasty habit of reasserting itself.

And this is the thing: There is an observable human result.

Consider how some masculinists will complain about deadbeat moms whenever the subject of deadbeat dads comes up. There are deadbeat moms out there, and we can make whatever we want of proportions, socioeconomics, and other affecting factors. However, there are no pregnant men out there being forced by courts to hospital confinement or to carry the pregnancy to term.

There is no abstract consideration, then, for the anti-abortion activists, that their policies would affect men in the same way. While it is certainly an interesting potential, it is also entirely removed from reality.
 
So...let me see if I have this straight. Because men cannot get pregnant women should have unimpeded choice regardless of any consideration of personhood?
 
So...let me see if I have this straight. Because men cannot get pregnant women should have unimpeded choice regardless of any consideration of personhood?

Whether men can get pregnant or not is beside the point.

The issue with the abortion debate is that according to the pro-life anti-abortion crowd, once a woman falls pregnant, then her body is no longer hers and she loses all basic and fundamental human rights. At the heart of the debate is what happens to a woman's human rights if she falls pregnant? Is it no longer hers? Or does society own it?

You have a right and a say over what happens to your body. Women also have that say, or should have that say. The anti-abortion crowd demand that she does not and instead, she becomes a vessel, an incubator with no rights and no choice.
 
Whether men can get pregnant or not is beside the point.

The issue with the abortion debate is that according to the pro-life anti-abortion crowd, once a woman falls pregnant, then her body is no longer hers and she loses all basic and fundamental human rights. At the heart of the debate is what happens to a woman's human rights if she falls pregnant? Is it no longer hers? Or does society own it?

You have a right and a say over what happens to your body. Women also have that say, or should have that say. The anti-abortion crowd demand that she does not and instead, she becomes a vessel, an incubator with no rights and no choice.
and at what point did Gianna Jessen develop rights?

[video=youtube;kPF1FhCMPuQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPF1FhCMPuQ[/video]
 
and at what point did Gianna Jessen develop rights?
Oh look, it's the peanut gallery. With the exact same argument. How many years have you been peddling this woman's story LG? Are you getting a commission for it now?

When she was born.

Ask her, who has more rights over her body. Her or another person. Who has more rights over your body? You or someone else? Then again, your views of women are well known here, so I am not surprised you have again decided to forage into this thread.

Rebecca Bell is a prime example of why women should not have their human rights infringed upon by society and their religious views. Do you know who Rebecca Bell is LG? She is the other poster child for the abortion debate. Or should I say she was the other poster child for the abortion debate. She would be a few years older than Gianna Jessen. Unfortunately, because she was unable to have a safe and legal abortion when she was 17 years of age, she had a backyard abortion and died of a massive infection shortly after.

So, did Rebecca Bell need to die? Or should she have been able to legally and safely access an abortion? To put it into some perspective:

Worldwide 47 000 women die each year from complications following unsafe abortions. Unsafe abortion is, therefore, a leading cause of the almost 287 000 maternal deaths estimated to occur each year. Globally one in eight pregnancy-related deaths, an estimated 17%, are due to an unsafe abortion. Every 9 minutes a woman dies needlessly as a result of an unsafe illegal abortion.

So in the time it took me to type out this post, a woman would have died as a result of an unsafe and illegal abortion. Are women worth so little in society that this is even a debate? Are women worth so little that they are denied the right to a safe medical procedure because the religious beliefs of other people trump her rights to her body?

Tell me LG, should women be able to access safe and legal abortions? Yes or No?

Should women be forced to endure a pregnancy against their will? Yes or no?

Look at the case of the 14 year old girl, discussed above, who fell pregnant after being raped by her step-father. Should she be forced, against her will, to have a child to her rapist? Yes or no?

I'd suggest you answer those questions without peddling and hiding behind Ms Jessen. Simple yes or no's will suffice.
 
If both sexes could have babies, abortion would be legal.

That a rather big assumption. You would need to prove that men would never implement or accept laws that oppress themselves first for me to believe that.

There is no abstract consideration, then, for the anti-abortion activists, that their policies would affect men in the same way. While it is certainly an interesting potential, it is also entirely removed from reality.

Ok lets deal in reality here: Can women be granted equal rights to men in all things except no right to abort (a right that men can't biological have or have taken from them)? Or as Bell says does making abortion illegal also causes women to "loses all basic and fundamental human rights"?

and at what point did Gianna Jessen develop rights?

Chances are, and this is a matter of statistics, that people who were aborted had a higher chance of being criminals and unfortunates then happy, functional people. Sure some of them, many in fact could have been fine people, but many would have been abused and hated and born into a world that only cared about them for 9 months before they were born and not after. I would say if you want to make abortion illegal you need to make sure every child that is born is born to parents that want and can take care of them and pay for the services to adopt or raise the unwanted ones to a level that provides them with a quality of life comparable to the average wanted child.
 
Oh look, it's the peanut gallery. With the exact same argument. How many years have you been peddling this woman's story LG? Are you getting a commission for it now?
No more than you get a commission for your derivative attempts.
Standard arguments prompt standard rebuttals.

If you seriously want to alter the flavour of the proceedings, it will require a bit more investment on your behalf I'm afraid ... beginning with actually watching the clip

:shrug:


When she was born.
Interesting.
So which parties do you think could be held accountable for her having developed cerebral palsy?


Ask her, who has more rights over her body. Her or another person.

Who has more rights over your body? You or someone else?

I guess that would depend on what one is doing with her body and how that affects the bodies of others.
What to speak of killing someone else, if one is even neglecting obligations of contingency with one's body (such as employer/employee relations or even the standard benchmark of parenthood that our flatulenlyt obese contemporary version of society has huffed and puffed to achieve) one can get into quite a lot of trouble.

Then again, your views of women are well known here, so I am not surprised you have again decided to forage into this thread.

I believe you have tried to play this lame get out of jail guard for this tired pathetic argument before.

Feel free to rehash the same trite nonsense bereft of any references like you usually do.
:shrug:


Rebecca Bell is a prime example of why women should not have their human rights infringed upon by society and their religious views. Do you know who Rebecca Bell is LG? She is the other poster child for the abortion debate. Or should I say she was the other poster child for the abortion debate. She would be a few years older than Gianna Jessen. Unfortunately, because she was unable to have a safe and legal abortion when she was 17 years of age, she had a backyard abortion and died of a massive infection shortly after.
I guess in your glee to breath life in the same tired crap you have conveniently forgotten how this problem has only ever been discussed *in this thread* in terms of triage models of danger management etc.

No one is arguing this point so kindly repackage your inflatable strawman for some other "surprise" encounter with imaginary opponent to your arguments some other time slobberchops.

IOW if you want to argue for the abortion-on-whim policy, you will require a more solid example.

So, did Rebecca Bell need to die?
Of course not .. however at this point the only question being asked is why do you need to salivate over things that no one is arguing in favour of ...

Or should she have been able to legally and safely access an abortion?
If you want to make your contributions relevant , perhaps you could explain your ideas on this same scenario bereft of any obvious medical condition that threatens the life of the mother .... since, you know, that is what is actually being discussed

Tell me LG, should women be able to access safe and legal abortions? Yes or No?
Depends doesn't it.
I mean that's what triage models are all about, aren't they?

Should women be forced to endure a pregnancy against their will? Yes or no?
I guess we can only really answer that by also bringing the question "should babies be forced to endure having their brains sucked out of their skulls against their will?" to the discussion.

IOW for as long as you insist on repeatedly discussing this topic as if the only "real" player is the mother, all these attempts to talk of rights and what not can be expanded to include the second party of this scenario that you are hell bent on ignoring : namely the child.

Look at the case of the 14 year old girl, discussed above, who fell pregnant after being raped by her step-father. Should she be forced, against her will, to have a child to her rapist? Yes or no?
Its kind of tragic how you have no faith in human existence or an individual's ability to to surmount challenge and difficulty.

I can understand why you might want to punish the rapist but I can't understand why you want to kill the child as some sort of macabre recourse to justice.

IOW to start making sense you will have to explain why killing a child born out of rape is permissible (IYHO) when it is in the womb, but not when it is outside the womb (assuming you don't think it is ok to kill a 2 year old if it was discovered that they were born out of rape sometime later.)

No doubt you will read this and see as an opportunity to slather with more cathartic exasperation along the lines of "no because they are born and they now have rights" ... but I can almost guarantee that you will totally fail to keep such line of thinking on track and instead fall away from this premise, as per your usual form, by shrouding it in issues no one is advocating.

In short, the essence of your point is that rights begin after birth but the problem is that you are not really confident/capable to stay on track with this argument. Instead you opt for throwing rape, pre-existing medical conditions of the mother and other red herrings into the discussion, forming, in your mind, quite elaborate refutations for things nobody is actually saying at worst or padding out your ideas merely with chaff at best.
:shrug:

I'd suggest you answer those questions without peddling and hiding behind Ms Jessen. Simple yes or no's will suffice.
I think you have to first look at precisely how Gianna Jessen problematizes the premise integral to your world view (namely the premise of rights beginning at the point of birth).

Until you do that, you are simply arguing with your inflatable strawmen against imaginary opponents.
 
Chances are, and this is a matter of statistics, that people who were aborted had a higher chance of being criminals and unfortunates then happy, functional people. Sure some of them, many in fact could have been fine people, but many would have been abused and hated and born into a world that only cared about them for 9 months before they were born and not after. I would say if you want to make abortion illegal you need to make sure every child that is born is born to parents that want and can take care of them and pay for the services to adopt or raise the unwanted ones to a level that provides them with a quality of life comparable to the average wanted child.
And you don't think that not having recourse to an abortion-on-whim policy would impact the attitude to or the social institution of parenthood in any positive way?

IOW I think at a certain point society has to work out whether it wants to cater to criminals or individuals actually interested in amplifying their good qualities ... and from that point you can determine whether it is actually civilized or not.
 
Pro life paradise?

El Salvador. This is the ideal that religious conservatives and the pro-life 'want to ban all abortions' crowd keep pushing down our collective throats.

It has one of the toughest anti-abortion laws in the world. The extent of which, can be seen in the case of Beatriz:

There, a woman named Beatriz spent months languishing near death. Her kidneys were shutting down. She has lupus. She's 22 years old with an infant and a husband at home in rural El Salvador.

The problem? A high-risk pregnancy exacerbating her existing health conditions, with a fetus that was anencephalic - meaning it was developing with only a brainstem and no brain, and was unlikely to survive for more than a few hours outside of the womb, if at all.


For most thinking individuals, the answer to this solution, and the doctors recommendation is very clear. To save her life, she needed to have an abortion. Her child would never develop and would die, since it has no brain. Not so.

But El Salvador legally abides by the pro-life manifesto that abortion is murder, and is never medically necessary to save a woman's life. On May 29, the country's highest court agreed, denying Beatriz the procedure - ruling that her death "is not actual or imminent, but rather eventual".


To reiterate. The child had 0 chance of surviving. It had no brain. She was dying as a result of the pregnancy.

And yet, apparently an abortion in her case would be murder... The court even went further:

So since Beatriz would likely die in a few days or weeks instead of hours, it was acceptable to do nothing, the court said. Her declining health apparently wasn't much of a consideration, even though common sense (and modern medicine) confirm that long periods of grave illness typically do not lead to great health outcomes even if the patient survives.

For good measure, the court added that "the rights of the mother cannot be privileged over those" of the fetus. In the meantime, the rights of the fetus are very much privileged over those of the woman.

So, the life of a brainless baby who had absolutely no chance of surviving was privileged over those of the mother who was dying because of the pregnancy.

There is absolutely no sense with this case, but at its heart is the pro-life anti-abortion cause. For those who wish to ban abortions, this is reality and what can happen.

It took a human rights court to order the Government in El Salvador to give her life saving care and terminate the pregnancy. The Government was left with little choice but to allow the doctors to terminate the pregnancy. However they had final say and demanded the very sick woman undergo a c-section to deliver the child, further putting her life at risk. The child died a few hours later.

The insanity even extends to ectopic pregnancies, where the fertilised egg implants itself in the fallopian tube. Now, in normal circumstances, this requires an operation to remove it. Not so in pro-life hell of El Salvador. Oh no. There, even such medical procedures are banned and deemed to be murder.

The insistence on putting a woman's life at risk to maintain ideological purity is not relegated to C-section versus abortion decisions. For women with ectopic pregnancies, in which a fertilised egg implants outside of the uterus (often in the Fallopian tube), many Catholic hospitals are very bad places to be. Even though ectopic pregnancies can never come to fruition - a fetus can't develop in a Fallopian tube - modern Catholic dogma dictates that the fertilised egg cannot simply be removed.

That's a problem, since fertilised eggs grow and will eventually rupture the tube, creating a potentially life-threatening situation. At non-Catholic hospitals, a woman with an ectopic pregnancy could have it dissolved with a simple injection of methotrexate, but dissolving a fertilized egg is, to radical pro-lifers, murder. So for a woman getting Catholic medical care at many facilities, an ectopic pregnancy often means that her whole Fallopian tube has to be removed. The egg, of course, will die anyway as soon as the tube is cut off from the woman's body. But doctors didn't directly kill it, so its death is considered morally acceptable. Acceptable, too, is the fact that the woman's fertility has now been compromised, and she's had to undergo an invasive procedure instead of a readily available, simpler, safer one.

And this pro-life hell is not just in El Salvador. Other countries, such as Ireland and Nicaragua have seen women die or denied cancer treatment because they are pregnant.

But lets look a bit further in pro-life make all abortions illegal paradise.

Glenda Xiomara Cruz was crippled by abdominal pain and heavy bleeding in the early hours of 30 October 2012. The 19-year-old from Puerto El Triunfo, eastern El Salvador, went to the nearest public hospital where doctors said she had lost her baby.

It was the first she knew about the pregnancy as her menstrual cycle was unbroken, her weight practically unchanged, and a pregnancy test in May 2012 had been negative.

Four days later she was charged with aggravated murder - intentionally murdering the 38-to-42 week foetus - at a court hearing she was too sick to attend. The hospital had reported her to the police for a suspected abortion.

After two emergency operations and three weeks in hospital she was moved to Ilopango women's prison on the outskirts of the capital San Salvador. Then last month she was sentenced to 10 years in jail, the judge ruling that she should have saved the baby's life.



El Salvador is one of five countries with a total ban on abortion, along with Nicaragua, Chile, Honduras and Dominican Republic. Since 1998, the law has allowed no exceptions - even if a woman is raped, her life is at risk or the foetus is severely deformed.

More than 200 women were reported to the police between 2000 and 2011, of whom 129 were prosecuted and 49 convicted - 26 for murder (with sentences of 12 to 35 years) and 23 for abortion, according to research by Citizens' Group for the Decriminalization of Abortion. Seven more have been convicted since 2012.



Last year when Maria Teresa Rivera suffered a miscarriage, she was sentenced to 40 years in jail for aggravated murder.

Like Xiomara, Teresa, 28, had no pregnancy symptoms before sudden severe pain and bleeding, and was reported to police by the public hospital where she had sought emergency help.

The scientific evidence was flimsy, according to Munoz who will soon lodge an appeal, and the prosecution relied heavily on a colleague of hers, who testified that Rivera had said she "might be" pregnant a full 11 months before the miscarriage.

A textile factory worker, she was the family's only breadwinner and her eight-year-old son is now living in dire poverty with his grandmother.

Cristina Quintanilla's story is different. On 24 October 2004, the 18-year-old from rural San Miguel was seven months pregnant with her second child, living with her mother in the capital to be near a hospital for the birth.

Her boyfriend was working in the US, but the couple were excited, buying baby clothes and saving food tokens.

"Around midnight I felt an immense pain, I thought I was dying," Quintanilla says.

"I was banging on the bathroom door to get my mum's attention when I felt the baby drop out. The next thing I remember is waking up in hospital."

Her mother called the police - a typical step for Salvadorans in an emergency, who took them to hospital.

Quintanilla was given an anaesthetic, and interrogated when she came round. Then she was handcuffed to the hospital bed, charged with manslaughter and transferred to a police cell.

The first judge dismissed the case, but the prosecution appealed, upgrading the charge to aggravated murder.

Quintanilla was found guilty and sentenced to 30 years in jail, where she was vilified as a child killer. Her son Daniel, then only four, spent four years living with his great-grandmother until Munoz succeeded in having the sentence reduced to three years.

"The medical reports couldn't explain why the baby died, but the prosecutor made me out to be a criminal who could have saved my baby even though I had passed out in pain," she says.


So when I see the likes of LG parading Ms Jessen in this and other abortion threads, I wonder about the insanity of banning abortions. I wonder how Ms Jessen would appreciate, with her medical condition, if she fell pregnant and needed urgent medical care, she was told 'sorry, but you're pregnant and you're just going to have to die because you no longer have privilege over your body'.. Would she say thank you?
 
No more than [snip.. usual drivel and dodging questions, not surprising from the religious troll that you are]

Still can't answer those very simple questions?

Tell me LG, should women be able to access safe and legal abortions? Yes or No?

Should women be forced to endure a pregnancy against their will? Yes or no?

Look at the case of the 14 year old girl, discussed above, who fell pregnant after being raped by her step-father. Should she be forced, against her will, to have a child to her rapist? Yes or no?



Why do dodge these questions LG?

I mean, reading your responses, you are enough of a sadist that you would be willing to punish a 14 year old rape victim to force her to endure 9 months of pregnancy and then give birth to her rapist child to placate your religious views. Are your views of women so low that that is all they are? Incubators?

I have to ask, did you read this thread's topic? "Redux: Rape, Abortion and "Personhood"" ... So your accusation of "red-herring" in discussing the plight of a rape victim in a subject about rape and abortion shows the level of your dishonesty in your continued attempt to dodge the questions.

Not surprising really, since you are such a troll.

Perhaps you should move to El Salvador. Seems like just the place for you.
 
So when I see the likes of LG parading Ms Jessen in this and other abortion threads, I wonder about the insanity of banning abortions. I wonder how Ms Jessen would appreciate, with her medical condition, if she fell pregnant and needed urgent medical care, she was told 'sorry, but you're pregnant and you're just going to have to die because you no longer have privilege over your body'.. Would she say thank you?

this is the real issue for you :

The question should be why in those cases that you are so concerned about - namely, in cases of severe pregnancy complications, rape, incest, miscarriage - neither you nor your opponents are willing to work with the model of triage.

In the model of triage, granting personhood to the unborn, from conception to birth, does not lead to absurd consequences in those cases that you are so concerned about - namely, in cases of severe pregnancy complications, rape, incest, miscarriage.




Instead of addressing this you bring out your inflatable strawmen to fight imaginary people.
:shrug:
 
this is the real issue for you :

The question should be why in those cases that you are so concerned about - namely, in cases of severe pregnancy complications, rape, incest, miscarriage - neither you nor your opponents are willing to work with the model of triage.

In the model of triage, granting personhood to the unborn, from conception to birth, does not lead to absurd consequences in those cases that you are so concerned about - namely, in cases of severe pregnancy complications, rape, incest, miscarriage.




Instead of addressing this you bring out your inflatable strawmen to fight imaginary people.
:shrug:

Again, have you read the thread's title LG?

I mean, I know you are a bit slow on the uptake and your trolling ways tend to make you, well, troll. But have you read this thread's title? At all?

Or did you see a thread with "abortion" in the title and salivate, jump right in without fully understanding what was being discussed because you are just compelled to parade Ms Jessen once again?

Do I think abortion should be legal, even in cases where there is no rape, health issue, incest? Yes. I do. Do I think women should have the ultimate say over their own bodies, even while pregnant? Yes, I do.

Does that answer your question?

Now will you please answer the 3 questions I posed you.. You know, the ones that are in accordance with this thread's subject matter? Simple yes or no's will suffice:

Tell me LG, should women be able to access safe and legal abortions? Yes or No?

Should women be forced to endure a pregnancy against their will? Yes or no?

Look at the case of the 14 year old girl, discussed above, who fell pregnant after being raped by her step-father. Should she be forced, against her will, to have a child to her rapist? Yes or no?
 
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