Redux: Rape, Abortion, and "Personhood"

[Bells]

Never too young to have a child..

A 16-year-old girl was denied an abortion when the Nebraska Supreme Court upheld a ruling Friday that she was "not sufficiently mature" to make the decision to have one.

Nebraska law requires that girls 17 or younger must have written, notarized consent from a parent or guardian in order to have an abortion. In this case, the teenager, identified only as "Anonymous 5," is in foster care, but did not want to involve her foster parents out of fear that they would be so angry about her pregnancy that she could lose her placement at their home, according court documents.

A girl can bypass the consent provision in certain cases. Minors do not need parental permission in cases of medical emergencies, if they are victims of abuse, or if they can prove they are mature and well-informed enough to make the decision alone.

When she initially went before Judge Peter Bataillon in July, he ruled that she did not provide evidence she was a victim of abuse, and also "failed to establish by clear and convincing evidence that she is sufficiently mature and well informed."​

No, really, she's too immature to have an abortion, but not immature enough to have a child and become a mother?

Judge Bataillon who presided over the case, should perhaps never have been there in the first place.

The whole situation is a mess, made worse by a biased court and a presiding Judge who once served on an anti-abortion committee. Because of the legal requirements in Nebraska, which required parental consent, the girl is in foster care, placed there because her biological parents were abusive. So she went to court to not involve her very religious foster parents, advising the court that she feared losing her placement (along with her siblings) and thus, wanted to keep her situation private and have an abortion. Judge Bataillon, who has openly stated to objecting to abortion on ideological grounds, found her to not be mature enough after asking the girl if she knew "having abortion would be killing her child inside her" and whether doing that was more important than losing her place in her foster home..

As Slate points out, her arguments and responses in court were distinctly mature. Sadly, the Nebraska Supreme Court upheld the ruling:

The Nebraska Supreme Court denied a 16-year-old foster child’s request for an abortion on Friday because she was "not sufficiently mature" to make the decision herself. So instead, this immature young woman who does not want a baby will become a mother. Everyone wins.

The teenager, identified in the court ruling as Anonymous 5, showed evidence of mature reasoning at a confidential hearing. She worried that she didn’t have the financial resources to support a child or to be “the right mom that I would like to be right now.” Yet district judge Peter C. Bataillon, whom the Raw Story reports once served on the committee for an Omaha anti-abortion group, disagreed, and the Supreme Court upheld his ruling in a split vote of 5-2.
​

So, by the court's ruling, she is too immature to make the decision to have an abortion, but not so immature that she can have a child and become a mother.

The obscene irony in this situation would be funny if it was so so pathetically sad for that girl.

 

[Tiassa]

God Bless America ... (please? No, really, we could use a little help here.)

Welcome to Middle America. Family values country. Women are just breeding stock. And that's how they like it in Nebraska.

Now I remember why I haven't eaten much these last couple days.

I need to sear this episode from my memory.

Every time I come across it ....

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Nebraska is the state in which my friend's son, who was 18.1 years old, was busted for having sex with his girlfriend, who was 17.9 years old. Her father got a hair up his ass and decided to have him arrested. He was prosecuted and found guilty. Although he did not have to spend any time incarcerated, he is now on the "sexual predator" list.

With that stigma, he could not get a job in Nebraska, which is just across the border from Saudi Arabia and a few miles from Afghanistan in terms of medieval morality. So in desperation he moved back to California where he could live with his mother until he was able to find someone who might give him a job. He was required by law to register with the local police as soon as he settled, and he dutifully appeared at the station.

He handed the officer behind the counter his form. She looked at it, laughed, and tore it up.

"Welcome back to the Golden State, son! Have a nice life!"

 

[Bells]

We have often discussed the probability of the State forcing a woman to carry a child to term and give birth against their will. The whole notion seemed unreal and unbelievable. Like something out of a twisted scifi story. But here we are, in this day and age of supposed intelligence and greater understanding.

And a State in the US is actually forcing an abused girl to carry a child and give birth against... her will. And the reason they are forcing her to have this child is because they think she is too immature to get an abortion. But not too immature to become a mother. Even though she cannot financially care for the child and may risk her placement with the foster family she was placed with.. She's too immature to decide to get an abortion.. But she is mature enough to become a mother and have that child against her will..

How twisted and sick is that?

How sick and twisted is it to force a woman to carry a child to term and give birth to it against her will? How perverted is it to deny her her rights over her own body to this extent?

The reality is that as a ward of the State, the law allowed her to consent to an abortion without parental consent and permission. The first Judge should never have even ruled on it. By law, she had every right to have an abortion, because she was a ward of the State - in other words, there was no one for her to get consent from, so the law allowed her to access an abortion. Her placement with her foster family was not finalised and she was, legally, still a ward of the State. What this ruling has done is possibly thrown the law out the window and now, wards of the State in Nebraska, could find themselves no longer allowed to access abortions. This case sets an appalling precedent.

 

[Tiassa]

Cornholio

We have often discussed the probability of the State forcing a woman to carry a child to term and give birth against their will. The whole notion seemed unreal and unbelievable. Like something out of a twisted scifi story. But here we are, in this day and age of supposed intelligence and greater understanding.

Waylon Jennings, the long-troubled and widely celebrated American musician, told the tale of the night the music died. It was a miserable night. Everybody had a cold. The bus had a rattling, insufficient heater; everyone would be shivering and damp. Buddy got an invitation to ride on a plane. Waylon and the rest of the band were stuck with the long, cold ride across the frozen midwest.

"I hope your fuckin' plane crashes!" The last words an angry Waylon Jennings spat at Buddy Holly.

Not enough booze on the planet to erase that one, you know?

I mention this because there is nothing I could possibly say here that would suffice, as I would be horrified if it came true.

Still, this whole "Middle America" idea, the "Jesusland" culture, is a scourge not only upon the nation, but the entirety of our human endeavor.

Nebraska is apparently the state where they would donkey punch Columbia herself just to remind her who's in charge.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Pro- and anti-abortion opinions (I refuse to use the confusing euphemisms "pro-choice" and "pro-life") are (very roughly) equally divided in the USA, and the feelings are strong on both sides. This is not an issue that will be settled quickly or politely.

A groundswell of support for abortion rights emerged with the coming-of-age of the Baby Boomers in the 1960s and 70s. So one would expect America to slowly turn in favor of the procedure as the Boomers' more old-fashioned parents die off. However, the Boomers themselves went through a reversal starting in the late 1970s. Since they never studied history they assumed that they were the first to do everything they did, including sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. Their guilt over all that inspired many of them to launch the Religious Redneck Retard Revival, so many of that generation have adopted some of the most onerous trappings of Christianity. Compare so-called "creation science."

Thus it's not clear how public opinion will sway over the next couple of decades.

Fortunately they've stood their ground, if shakily, on racism, feminism, drug legalization, environmentalism and gay rights. They're a little divided on pacifism but they're steadily becoming fed up with our expensive and pointless wars of opportunity.

 

[Tiassa]

Reminder: Conservatives, Birth Control, and Women

In Case You Didn't Get the Message Last Year

And a State in the US is actually forcing an abused girl to carry a child and give birth against... her will. And the reason they are forcing her to have this child is because they think she is too immature to get an abortion. But not too immature to become a mother. Even though she cannot financially care for the child and may risk her placement with the foster family she was placed with.. She's too immature to decide to get an abortion.. But she is mature enough to become a mother and have that child against her will..

How twisted and sick is that?

Women who might have missed the Republican Party's message last year just got their necessary reminder from none other than Ted Cruz: Republicans do not know how birth control works.

Remember that? When Rush Limbaugh went off on a law student because he thought y'all had to take a magic pill every time you got laid?

During a Friday appearance at the 2013 Values Voter Summit, famous reproductive health expert Ted Cruz gestured emphatically with his hands while saying completely false things about birth control.

The Affordable Care Act, which Cruz does not like one bit, requires most employers to cover birth control, including emergency contraception. Cruz told the crowd, incorrectly, that emergency contraception is an “abortifacient.” He said this wrong thing twice, for emphasis.

Emergency contraception is not an abortion-inducing drug, even though lots of anti-abortion activists like to say that it is.

(McDonough)​

Is this sort of ignorance a prerequisite to being a conservative in the United States?

Now they don't just want to make sure you have those babies; they want to be certain y'all get pregnant.

Those who doubt cultural misogyny in the United States should consider that not only are such discussions going on, but they are, apparently, arguable propositions within the range of what the American discourse will and will not entertain.
____________________

Notes:

McDonough, Katie. "Ted Cruz has no idea how birth control works". Salon. October 11, 2013. Salon.com. October 12, 2013. http://www.salon.com/2013/10/11/ted_cruz_has_no_idea_how_birth_control_works/

See Also:

Trussell, James and Elizabeth G. Raymond. Emergency Contraception: A Last Chance to prevent Unintended Pregnancy. The Emergency Contraception Website. October, 2013. EC.Princeton.edu. October 12, 2013. http://ec.princeton.edu/questions/ec-review.pdf

 

[wegs]

...deleted comment

 

[Bells]

And the fuck-knuckle award goes to.....

During an appeal hearing for a rape victim in Israel, Judge Nissim Yeshaya of the District Court stunned all participants in the debate during the hearing with a statement that apparently silenced the whole room.

As recounted by the lawyer representing the rape victim:

"In the midst of the passionate debate, he (Judge Yeshaya) suddenly said aloud, in earshot of everyone present, 'There are some girls who enjoy being raped.’

"The room fell into silence. Even the panel members were silent for several minutes. And he didn’t even get what he had just said. He didn’t understand why everyone became quiet all of a sudden."​

The outcry, public and in the Israeli Government, has resulted in his having to stand down.

His response to the outcry?

"This isn’t serious. They are trying to gain publicity off of me. I do not believe a rape victim is not hurt or that rape is not a severe offence. (My comments) were misinterpreted."​

Perhaps he should explain how and why he thinks some girls enjoy being raped? Because it is quite difficult to see how he thinks "there are some girls who enjoy being raped" could be misinterpreted to mean anything other than what he said.

 

[Bells]

Right to not be kidnapped..

We have all seen some stupidity from the pro-life groups. One group in Texas, however, has taken stupid to a whole new level.

FEARS are held for the safety of women in Texas after an anti-abortion group infiltrated a pro-choice volunteering service, with the aim of kidnapping women to change their minds on abortion.

A post circulating on Facebook released the email of a volunteer group within The Cicada Collective, an "autonomous community-centred group of reproductive justice organisers located in North Texas".

According to the post, the Collective was looking for volunteers to "shuttle TX women around for their abortion appointments" and called for anti-choice campaigners to apply, undercover, in a bid to lure the women away.

It then urges the undercover guises to instead ferry the women to a Church to delay the abortion and ultimately, change her mind.

"I'm not suggesting you actually takea (sic) woman to an abortion clinic," it reads.

"It's a wonderful opportunity to minister to an abortion minded woman for an hour while you DON'T take her to the clinic."

"And hey if you can't change her mind by the time she gets out of your car and realises she is at church and not the clinic she's missed her appointment anyway".​

Ah Texas!

Where the deception, false imprisonment and kidnapping of women is openly advocated.

Women beware.

How can they know who is going for an abortion and who is going to planned parenthood clinics for their regular checkups and scans and other reasons (such as breast cancer screening)? Or is it a case of all women going to such clinics being fair game?

 

[Mazulu]

If, as atheists affirm, we only get one life to live because we have no soul, then suddenly abortion is now equivalent to murder. When i believed in spiritualism, an abortion was basically blocking a soul from reincarnating. But if atheism is right, and we only get one chance to experience life, then abortion is the permanent destruction of human consciousness. I'm not advocating that we take away women's rights. But suddenly abortion is not a mere inconvenience for a soul; abortion is the permanent destruction of a human consciousness.

If spiritualism is correct, then abortion is only an inconvenience for an incarnating soul. But if atheism is correct, and we have no soul, then that totally changes the equation regarding abortion. Abortion is the permanent destruction of human consciousness. The next question becomes: if we have no soul, then how much do we value human consciousness?

 

[Tiassa]

The Obvious Point

Abortion is the permanent destruction of human consciousness. The next question becomes: if we have no soul, then how much do we value human consciousness?

Define human consciousness.

 

[Mazulu]

Define human consciousness.

Human consciousness is what suffers when it is tortured. Human consciousness is what experiences the ecstasy of human sexuality. Human consciousness can appreciate the sanctity of life. Human consciousness can dream; it can have dreams and visions about the future. Human consciousness can envision goals and then set out to achieve those goals. Human consciousness can holdup a baby and feel funny feelings of love and affection. Human consciousness can feel warm and fuzzy feelings when it sees a kitten or a puppy. Human conscious feels awe when the weather become stormy and tornadic. Human consciousness can experience the noblest highs of honor, integrity and virtue; or can grieve in sadness and loss.

 

[Mazulu]

C'mon! Surely someone wants to address this issue? Abortion is only compatible with a belief in life after death and reincarnation. Without those beliefs, abortion is morally problematic. Doesn't anyone want to discuss this?

 

[Balerion]

C'mon! Surely someone wants to address this issue? Abortion is only compatible with a belief in life after death and reincarnation. Without those beliefs, abortion is morally problematic. Doesn't anyone want to discuss this?

Not with you, obviously.

 

[ElectricFetus]

I got a interesting anti-potential person argument for abortion: If a women is force to have a child she does not want, then its possible that having to raise side child prevent her from every conceiving and birth another child, that is wanted, that is raised better, in short forcing her to birth the potential life she does not want prevents another potential life that is wanted. It all goes to utilitarianism: if the latter potential life is a happier one, why not abort the first to get the latter?

 

[Mazulu]

I got a interesting anti-potential person argument for abortion: If a women is force to have a child she does not want, then its possible that having to raise side child prevent her from every conceiving and birth another child, that is wanted, that is raised better, in short forcing her to birth the potential life she does not want prevents another potential life that is wanted. It all goes to utilitarianism: if the latter potential life is a happier one, why not abort the first to get the latter?

I think it's a weak argument. Sorry.

I'm not advocating that abortion be made illegal. I believe that women should think twice before ending the life of the baby inside of them. We should always excercise careful judgement before we end a human life.

 

[iceaura]

I believe that women should think twice before ending the life of the baby inside of them

They do. Even when they know better than to think they are ending the life of a "baby", or destroying a "human consciousness", they still think twice.

So you don't need to worry about that any more.

 

[Bells]

If, as atheists affirm, we only get one life to live because we have no soul, then suddenly abortion is now equivalent to murder.

How so?

When i believed in spiritualism, an abortion was basically blocking a soul from reincarnating. But if atheism is right, and we only get one chance to experience life, then abortion is the permanent destruction of human consciousness. I'm not advocating that we take away women's rights. But suddenly abortion is not a mere inconvenience for a soul; abortion is the permanent destruction of a human consciousness.

If spiritualism is correct, then abortion is only an inconvenience for an incarnating soul. But if atheism is correct, and we have no soul, then that totally changes the equation regarding abortion. Abortion is the permanent destruction of human consciousness. The next question becomes: if we have no soul, then how much do we value human consciousness?

What do you think of the woman's consciousness if she is forced to have a child against her will?

Your point about human consciousness is an interesting one. When asked to define it, you responded with:

Human consciousness is what suffers when it is tortured. Human consciousness is what experiences the ecstasy of human sexuality. Human consciousness can appreciate the sanctity of life. Human consciousness can dream; it can have dreams and visions about the future. Human consciousness can envision goals and then set out to achieve those goals. Human consciousness can holdup a baby and feel funny feelings of love and affection. Human consciousness can feel warm and fuzzy feelings when it sees a kitten or a puppy. Human conscious feels awe when the weather become stormy and tornadic. Human consciousness can experience the noblest highs of honor, integrity and virtue; or can grieve in sadness and loss.

Since a foetus is unable to do any of those things, then it cannot be murder, nor can it be a destruction of human consciousness.

 

[ElectricFetus]

I think it's a weak argument. Sorry.

I'm not advocating that abortion be made illegal. I believe that women should think twice before ending the life of the baby inside of them. We should always excercise careful judgement before we end a human life.

How many women do you think just have abortions willy-nilly?