Recognition of Israel : a moral failure

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, it inflames your hatred .....then you come here and try to inflame the hatred onto others. That ain't nice, SAM.



Why bother putting in "Jewish"? Why not just say Israel? By invoking that one word, you're automatically spewing racism, bigotry and hatred of a people who have nothing to do with the situation.



Well, what about all the damaged children in India? Why aren't you more concerned about your own people than a people thousands of miles away? SAM, India has more fuckin' problems than all of the Palestinians combined. So start by taking care of some of your own people first. If you do a good job, perhaps we'll hire you to take care of the Pals.

Baron Max

And this, in short, is how the international community washes its hands off the atrocities of the Jews. By attacking/blaming those who protest against it. Or by pretending its not as bad as other problems. Or by justifying it. Or by making ineffectual protests without any action [with the US waiting to veto any action that could have been taken]

 

[scott3x]

Or maybe I get too much information about the Palestinian situation. Do I blame all the Jews? No, but I do blame the Jewish state, because it is state policy to do these things.

Claxton quoted a UN report that put the number of children shot dead in the past three and a half years at fifty-six. Almost all died as a result of direct fire, not of random shots or ricochet. Not a single Israeli soldier had been imprisoned for the killing of a Palestinian child.

A boy called Jihad, who was himself beaten, described how his father was beaten to death by Israeli soldiers in front of him, his mother and two sisters. On the day the soldiers came to his home, he said, "My father took us into a room and locked the door. . .but they broke it down. . .the soldiers would take his head and hit it against the wall. . .The other soldier broke his truncheon on him. Then he said, 'Bring me a knife. . .he has to die.'" Later, Jihad saw his father's body and described it as "all dissected, his arms and his stomach." Four soldiers were tried, convicted of manslaughter and pardoned. The family has had no compensation.

Lulu is eight years old. A rubber bullet hit her in the brain. She is now a pretty vegetable whose family hug and kiss her, hoping in vain for a reaction. Apart from rubber and plastic bullets "like marble," the Israelis also have a stone-throwing machine that hurls 600 stones a minute. "It's our own intifada on wheels," said an officer.

Children in the Claxton film speak movingly, yet with a curious detachment. "We no longer fear," they said; and that life was a simple matter of "killing or getting killed." A Palestinian psychiatrist said the effect was that "the children take authority into their own hands. Their parents try to protect them, but no one can stop them."

All these damaged children, what is the future for them?

Source: Film Do They Feel My Shadow? made by Nicholas Claxton and Cherry Farrow

There are definitely terrible things that happen in this world. But trying to pin the blame on any particular side doesn't really help things, in my view. As I've mentioned before, I believe the people with the more destructive weapons tend to do more harm. If the palestinians had these weapons and the israelies were the ones throwing rocks, the tables would, in my view, be reversed.

I'm glad that you don't blame all the jews. I agree that Israel as a nation has some things it has to answer for. However, so do many countries that have a fair amount of weaponry. In some cases, the weaponry is generally machetes as in some cases in Africa. The bottom line, in my view, is something that Gandhi said:
"If everyone took an eye for an eye, the world would be blind".

In other words, yes, it's good to see that Israel has done some very harsh things. But it's also important to note that Israel -was- attacked by many Arab nations in 1967 and palestinians do continue to chuck rockets in their direction. Basically, I simply think that instead of more rage at one side or another, what we need is an attempt at understanding. -Why- are the Israelies bulldozing homes, -why- do the palestinians continue to throw rockets Israel's way? How can we stop the violence? These, I believe, are the questions we should be asking.

 

[EntropyAlwaysWins]

Ah, but when the house of a non-Jew is demolished in Palestine by a person to build a house for Jews, its 100% of times a Jew. So its Jewish terrorism. Maybe if America was a Jewish country, the Texan Jews would be doing the same thing.

Do you have any evidence to support this otherwise baseless assertion?

...Jews have a long, unbroken history of living in enclaves and apart from others. :shrug:

1. this is not always the case.
2. many minority groups live in areas with a high proportion of members of that same minority even when they have partly/mostly assimilated into the culture of the majority.

And btw, there are plenty of terrorists who are not Muslims. Like the CIA in Somalia for instance. But you don't hear much about those.

By definition, a nation cannot commit a terrorist act.
If a terrorist was to blow up a restaurant then it's an act of terrorism, if a government was to bomb the same restaurant in another countries territory then its an act of war.
You might argue that this is quibbling about semantics but nevertheless, it is the case.

I'm sure Hitler had a lot of Jewish co-conspirators who hauled off Jews to the camps,

Do you have a source to back up this assertion?
If you are referring to the Judenrat, they are hardly co-conspirators even if they may have been viewed as such by some.

And any Israeli who sustains this society is complicit in all this. They all do two years of compulsory military service and participate in the occupation

Compulsory National service, not everybody serves in the military.

And if you speak out against this, you are a Jew-hating moronic bigot and an anti-semite with extreme views.

As has been pointed out to you time and time again, it's not what you say but how you say it that often determines the offensiveness of a statement.

 

[S.A.M.]

Do you have any evidence to support this otherwise baseless assertion?

Yup, go to any city where Jews live. 99.99% they live in an enclave and sell only to other Jews. If they had the power, they would kick out any non-Jews and make it all an enclave. Thats what they have done in any place, historically. Twice in Canaan now.

1. this is not always the case.
2. many minority groups live in areas with a high proportion of members of that same minority even when they have partly/mostly assimilated into the culture of the majority.

Not really. Check out any Jewish community. We've had four of them in India, they don't even assimilate with each other.And 2000 years was not long enough for them to call it home. Over 80% of them left to evict some Palestinians when the Jewish state was forced on those people.

By definition, a nation cannot commit a terrorist act.
If a terrorist was to blow up a restaurant then it's an act of terrorism, if a government was to bomb the same restaurant in another countries territory then its an act of war.
You might argue that this is quibbling about semantics but nevertheless, it is the case.

Sorry, I don't believe that shit. When a bunch of Jews move into a place and massacre the non-Jews to create a Jewish state I call it terrorism. When they get rich off it and get better weapons and continue to do it for 60 years its still terrorism. Since I think the "state" of Israel is an illegal state, its all terrorism to me.

Do you have a source to back up this assertion?
If you are referring to the Judenrat, they are hardly co-conspirators even if they may have been viewed as such by some.

Merely the words of Holocaust survivors:

The Jüdische Ordnungsdienst, as the Jewish police in the ghettos were called, furnished thousands of men for seizure operations. In the Warsaw ghetto alone the Jewish police numbered approximately 2500; in Lodz they were about 1200 men strong; the Lvov ghetto had an Ordnungsdienst of 500 men; and so on.
(Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, Quadrangle Books, Chicago, 1961, p. 310)

Letter to the editor by Prof. Israel Shahak,
published on 19 May 1989 in Kol Ha'ir, Jerusalem. Available online at:
http://www.kaiwan.com/codoh/newsdesk/890519.HTML

I disagree with the opinion of Haim Baram that the Israeli education system has managed to instil a "Holocaust awareness" in its pupils (Kol Ha'Ir 12.5.89). It's not an awareness of the Holocaust but rather the myth of the Holocaust or even a falsification of the Holocaust (in the sense that "a half-truth is worse than a lie") which has been instilled here.
As one who himself lived through the Holocaust, first in Warsaw then in Bergen-Belsen, I will give an immediate example of the total ignorance of daily life during the Holocaust. In the Warsaw ghetto, even during the period of the first massive extermination (June to October 1943), one saw almost no German soldiers. Nearly all the work of administration, and later the work of transporting hundreds of thousands of Jews to their deaths, was carried out by Jewish collaborators. Before the outbreak of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (the planning of which only started after the extermination of the majority of Jews in Warsaw), the Jewish underground killed, with perfect justification, every Jewish collaborator they could find. If they had not done so the Uprising could never have started. The majority of the population of the Ghetto hated the collaborators far more than the German Nazis. Every Jewish child was taught, and this saved the lives of some of them "if you enter a square from which there are three exits, one guarded by a German SS man, one by an Ukrainian and one by a Jewish policeman, then you should first try to pass the German, and then maybe the Ukrainian, but never the Jew".
One of my own strongest memories is that, when the Jewish underground killed a despicable collaborator close to my home at the end of February 1943, I danced and sang around the still bleeding corpse together with the other children. I still do not regret this, quite the contrary.
It is clear that such events were not exclusive to the Jews, the entire Nazi success in easy and continued rule over millions of people stemmed from the subtle and diabolical use of collaborators, who did most of the dirty work for them. But does anybody now know about this? This, and not what is "instilled" was the reality. Of the Yad Vashem (official state Holocaust museum in Jerusalem — Ed.) theatre, I do not wish to speak at all. It, and its vile exploiting, such as honouring South Africa collaborators with the Nazis are truly beneath contempt.
Therefore, if we knew a little of the truth about the Holocaust, we would at least understand (with or without agreeing) why the Palestinians are now eliminating their collaborators. That is the only means they have if they wish to continue to struggle against our limb-breaking regime.

Kind regards,

[Israel Shahak]

Compulsory National service, not everybody serves in the military.

They all support the system that oppresses the Palestinians.

As has been pointed out to you time and time again, it's not what you say but how you say it that often determines the offensiveness of a statement.

I'll think of more polite ways to report their oppression

 

[Baron Max]

And this, in short, is how the international community washes its hands off the atrocities of the Jews.

What you meant to say was "...of the Israelis", right? You said Jews when you know damned well that all of the Jews didn't do those things!

See? You're anti-semitic ....and YOU can say things like that on this forum because you're a moderator and you can get away with it. That ain't nice!!

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

What you meant to say was "...of the Israelis", right? You said Jews when you know damned well that all of the Jews didn't do those things!

See? You're anti-semitic ....and YOU can say things like that on this forum because you're a moderator and you can get away with it. That ain't nice!!

Baron Max

Not the Israelis Baron, try and see if the same applies when an Israeli Arab runs a bulldozer over a car in Jerusalem. This only applies to the Jews.

 

[Baron Max]

Yup, go to any city where Jews live. 99.99% they live in an enclave and sell only to other Jews. If they had the power, they would kick out any non-Jews and make it all an enclave.

Hmm, how 'bout the Chinese in China Town (in New York City, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and a host of other such cities)?

How 'bout Little Havana in Miami?

How 'bout Little Mexico in Los Angeles and New York City?

How 'bout the Puerto Ricans in New York City?

SAM, I'm willing to bet that just such places like that exist in India ...you just don't want talk or think about those.

Because you hate Jews!! And you blame ALL Jews for what a few have done.

You're anti-semitic, SAM, just admit it ....you'll feel better!

They all support the system that oppresses the Palestinians.

Sorta' like all Muslims support terrorism?

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

Not the Israelis Baron, try and see if the same applies when an Israeli Arab runs a bulldozer over a car in Jerusalem. This only applies to the Jews.

So no other people/race/religion ever did anything like that, huh, SAM? Only Jews do those things?

You're plainly and obviously anti-semitic, but you get away with it because you're a moderator here.

All Muslims are terrorists and/or terrorist supporters!

I'll bet I get an infraction for that ...or banned outright. Yet you can say the similar things about the Jews, and no one does anything about it. Why?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Did I say all Jews? Nope. But, FYI, I'm no longer a moderator in Biology because of my "extreme" views on Israel. Note, that my extreme views on other topics were not worth de-modding. So I shall say, the Jews are a special case, they even determine whether one can mod a Biology forum. I think if I were a Jew, like Noam Chomsky, I could have gotten away with having extreme views. But as a non-Jew? Nope, no way.

 

[Baron Max]

So, SAM, do you think it's okay for me to say that all Muslims are terrorists and/or terrorist supporters?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Hmm, how 'bout the Chinese in China Town (in New York City, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and a host of other such cities)?

How 'bout Little Havana in Miami?

How 'bout Little Mexico in Los Angeles and New York City?

How 'bout the Puerto Ricans in New York City?



Sorta' like all Muslims support terrorism?

Baron Max

Ah but do they want to go "home" and evict the natives? Or do they consider themselves at home?

So, SAM, do you think it's okay for me to say that all Muslims are terrorists and/or terrorist supporters?

Baron Max

I believe you already do that Baron. I don't suppose it would matter what I thought about it, being only a lowly Muslim.

 

[Baron Max]

Ah but do they want to go "home" and evict the natives?

Yes, they do ....but they can't because of some of those pesky, idiotic laws that we have in the USA.

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Strange, those "laws" don't stop American Jews from going "home" and evicting the natives

On 9 October, in a gruesome incident reminiscent of Serbian atrocities in Bosnia and Kosovo, settlers riding a jeep with army camouflage, abducted and brutally murdered Essam Judeh, 36, of the village of Umm Al-Safa near Ramallah as he was driving to his olive farm.

Wearing a type of skullcap worn by followers of the Gush Emunim settler movement, the group of settlers forced Judeh at gunpoint into their jeep and took him to the nearby settlement of Pisgot, which is inhabited primarily by Jewish immigrants from the United States. There the settlers sadistically bludgeoned him with clubs and axes, electrocuted and burned him with a heated iron bar, before shooting him once in the back of the head. Judeh's charred and mutilated body was found in his field a few hours later.

Six hours earlier, settlers similarly abducted, 25-year-old Sayed Sweidan, another Palestinian farmer from the village of Azzoun near Qalqilya in the northern West Bank. They performed virtually the same horrific rituals on him before shooting him in the head. Farmers found his corpse in an olive grove near the village.

On 8 October, settlers murdered Fahd Abu Bakr, 23, of the village of Bidya near Salfit, 15 kilometres north-west of Ramallah, again in much the same manner.

One Israeli source intimated that the settlers had received a religious edict from the rabbinical council of Gush Emunim, exhorting them to kill "Arabs in Eretz Yisrael [Greater Israel], young and old, anywhere and everywhere." Such an edict is by no means new, but its reassertion at this time is very telling.

The settlers have also perpetrated acts of sabotage and vandalism against Arab property throughout the West Bank.

In East Jerusalem, Palestinian homes, cars and businesses were all vandalised. Likewise, settlers destroyed Palestinian property in Shufat refugee camp, the village of the same name, Hizma, Anata, Al-Isawiya, Al-Ram, Dahiyat Al-Barid and Harat Al-Akaba.

In the northern parts of the West Bank, and also in the environs of Ramallah, the settlers have been busy setting Palestinian olive groves on fire. Palestinian sources said hundreds of dunums of olive farms were torched by the settlers, causing heavy losses to the mostly impoverished Palestinian farmers who depend to a large extent on their olive crops for their livelihood.

And as everywhere, the settlers were constantly under the watchful eyes of Israeli soldiers to ensure their security and safety.

http://www.radioislam.org/historia/zionism/amayreh_kristalnacht.html

 

[Baron Max]

Strange, those "laws" don't stop American Jews from going "home" and evicting the natives[/url]

All American Jews do that, SAM? Or just a few individuals who happen to be Jews?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

All American Jews do that, SAM? Or just a few individuals who happen to be Jews?

Baron Max

You tell me. How many "American" Jews have moved there? How many Palestinians have they evicted?

Do the laws apply to the ones who do it? Because no settler [American or otherwise] has ever been convicted for murdering Palestinians. Just like no IDF trooper has been convicted for shooting their children at point blank range.

 

[Baron Max]

You tell me. How many "American" Jews have moved there?

Doesn't matter, SAM. You continue to blame ALL Jews for something that only a few MIGHT have done. So don't keep using the term "Jews" when you really mean "Israelis". If you continue your practice, not only is it wrong, but it proves, time and time again, that you're anti-semitic.

Do the laws apply to the ones who do it? Because no settler [American or otherwise] has ever been convicted for murdering Palestinians.

I'll just bet that that's wrong, SAM. Do you have any evidence to back up that claim? If not, it's just one more example of your anti-semitism. And, SAM, if you do produce some damned website, be sure that it's actual proof of such wrong-doing rather than some wild, unfounded anti-semtic accusations.

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Doesn't matter, SAM. You continue to blame ALL Jews for something that only a few MIGHT have done. So don't keep using the term "Jews" when you really mean "Israelis". If you continue your practice, not only is it wrong, but it proves, time and time again, that you're anti-semitic.

Like saying Sunnis and Shias when you mean Iraqis? Like saying Islamic terrorism? Like saying Islamist militant?

I'll just bet that that's wrong, SAM. Do you have any evidence to back up that claim? If not, it's just one more example of your anti-semitism. And, SAM, if you do produce some damned website, be sure that it's actual proof of such wrong-doing rather than some wild, unfounded anti-semtic accusations.

Baron Max

Check any human rights site. Or Israeli site. Better still, find me one Israeli Jew who has been convicted for killing a Palestinian OR shooting a kid.

Just one.

 

[spidergoat]

You tell me. How many "American" Jews have moved there? How many Palestinians have they evicted?

Do the laws apply to the ones who do it? Because no settler [American or otherwise] has ever been convicted for murdering Palestinians. Just like no IDF trooper has been convicted for shooting their children at point blank range.

Contrary to your notion that Palestinians are always the victim of Israeli policy, this article points out an incident where IDF soldiers come to the aid of Palestinians:

Violent clashes erupted early Thursday between settler activists and Israeli security forces at a disputed house slated for evacuation in the West Bank city of Hebron, prompting Israeli and Palestinian officials alike to call for legal enforcement.

During the protests, some settlers began to attack Palestinian locals while others wounded an IDF soldier by spraying turpentine at him as he tried to stop them from throwing stones at Palestinians...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1039263.html​

 

[spidergoat]

Israel Defense Forces troops on Thursday foiled an attempted stabbing of an IDF soldier in the West Bank, after a Palestinian man carrying an explosive device arrived at the checkpoint and made an attempt to stab a female soldier.

Troops overpowered the assailant and in a subsequent search, found the explosive device on his person.

An additional Palestinian man was arrested at the Hawara checkpoint near Nablus on Thursday, after troops discovered he was carrying a knife with a four-inch blade.

In September, an IDF soldier lost his vision in one eye after a Palestinian woman threw acid in his face at the Hawara checkpoint.​

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1039409.html

Aww, those poor Palestinian victims...

 

[S.A.M.]

Are they dead? It have made up at least partially for the 5 Palestinians killed in the IDF raid on Gaza or the 17 killed since the last few days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISVqSJpcb6U

Did you also weep for the Nazis killed by the Jews in Warsaw. Occupiers have only themselves to blame for casualties. The occupation is by their choice.