Recognition of Israel : a moral failure

[Baron Max]

You say Islamic terrorism don't you?

Yeah, and in most cases of terrorism in the world today ...IS... done by Islamic people ....and who readily admit their guilty on websites!!! See?

So when there's a terrorist act anywhere in the world today, most people will almost immediately think "Ahh, the Muslims are at it again." But see, it's been proven over and over again, and readily admitted by Muslim terrorists.

See, SAM, it's through experience in real-world happenings ...on almost a daily basis.

How is that different from saying Jewish oppression?

First, only YOU seem to want to refer to it as "oppression". And second, by saying it in the way you have, you've said that ALL Jews are oppressing someone or some people. The Jews in Texas aren't oppressing anyone!

See? It's NOT "Jewish" oppression. In the same way that it's not "Muslim Terrorism" ...even if Muslims are involved, that doesn't mean that ALL Muslims are terrorists. And to say so, to make that claim, as you do with the Jews, is ....yep, you got it, ....bigorty, racial/religious hatred, prejudice, ...and all those other nasty expressions.

"SAM is a racist, religious bigot and hater of Jews .....therefore, all Indians are racist, religious bigots who hate Jews." Is that okay for me to say? Why not? You say the same for all Jews, don't you?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, and in most cases of terrorism in the world today ...IS... done by Islamic people ....and who readily admit their guilty on websites!!! See?

So when there's a terrorist act anywhere in the world today, most people will almost immediately think "Ahh, the Muslims are at it again." But see, it's been proven over and over again, and readily admitted by Muslim terrorists.

See, SAM, it's through experience in real-world happenings ...on almost a daily basis.



First, only YOU seem to want to refer to it as "oppression". And second, by saying it in the way you have, you've said that ALL Jews are oppressing someone or some people. The Jews in Texas aren't oppressing anyone!

See? It's NOT "Jewish" oppression. In the same way that it's not "Muslim Terrorism" ...even if Muslims are involved, that doesn't mean that ALL Muslims are terrorists. And to say so, to make that claim, as you do with the Jews, is ....yep, you got it, ....bigorty, racial/religious hatred, prejudice, ...and all those other nasty expressions.

"SAM is a racist, religious bigot and hater of Jews .....therefore, all Indians are racist, religious bigots who hate Jews." Is that okay for me to say? Why not? You say the same for all Jews, don't you?

Baron Max

Ah, but when the house of a non-Jew is demolished in Palestine by a person to build a house for Jews, its 100% of times a Jew. So its Jewish terrorism. Maybe if America was a Jewish country, the Texan Jews would be doing the same thing. After all, Jews have a long, unbroken history of living in enclaves and apart from others. :shrug:

And btw, there are plenty of terrorists who are not Muslims. Like the CIA in Somalia for instance. But you don't hear much about those.

As for the terrorists being Muslims, one could just as easily say Christian warmongerers and you'd probably be right 100% of the time too. Even in Ethiopia.

 

[Baron Max]

Ah, but when the house of a non-Jew is demolished in Palestine by a person to build a house for Jews, its 100% of times a Jew.

...LOL! But, SAM, houses are demolished all over the world, by all kinds of people and all kinds of religions!

Houses are demolished in India ...do you blame the Jews for that, too? Houses are demolished in the USA ...do you blame the Jews for that?

And btw, there are plenty of terrorists who are not Muslims.

Well, yes, there are a few. But, SAM, whenever a terrorist act occurs, surely even you immediately think that it "might be" Muslim terrorists, right? If not, then you're most probably lying to yourself.

Like the CIA in Somalia for instance. But you don't hear much about those.

Nations can not do "terrorist acts", we call those something else. Nations can not be terrorists.

As for the terrorists being Muslims, one could just as easily say Christian warmongerers and you'd probably be right 100% of the time too. Even in Ethiopia.

No, because, again, it's not ALL Christians! See? That's your biggest mistake, SAM, you're blaming "Jews", where you should be blaming "Israelis". All Jews are not Israelis, and all Israelis are Jews. See? See?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

...LOL! But, SAM, houses are demolished all over the world, by all kinds of people and all kinds of religions!

Houses are demolished in India ...do you blame the Jews for that, too? Houses are demolished in the USA ...do you blame the Jews for that?

Only if its the house of a non-Jew being demolished specifically to make way for a house for a Jew.

Well, yes, there are a few. But, SAM, whenever a terrorist act occurs, surely even you immediately think that it "might be" Muslim terrorists, right? If not, then you're most probably lying to yourself.

Not really, we are more beset by the LTTE in our corner of the world. So, if its in India, we think LTTE>VHP>Shiv Sena>Bajrang Dal, in that order. If its in Kashmir, we think Pakistanis. If its in Europe, we think maybe Moroccans or Saudis. If its in America, we think CIA or FBI or some mad Christian nutter. See?

Nations can not do "terrorist acts", we call those something else. Nations can not be terrorists.

Only if you're painting yourself white. It looks very much like terrorism to the rest of us. Collateral damages are still dead bodies of civilians no matter how you colour it. Birth pangs of the Middle East, is still the US sending cluster bombs to aid the Jews in their oppression of their neighbors.

No, because, again, it's not ALL Christians! See? That's your biggest mistake, SAM, you're blaming "Jews", where you should be blaming "Israelis". All Jews are not Israelis, and all Israelis are Jews. See? See?

Baron Max

I'm sure Hitler had a lot of Jewish co-conspirators who hauled off Jews to the camps, but no one ever means Jews when they say Nazis, do they? Its the ones in power who count.

Besides, framing is so important. If the newspapers were splashed with news written like this,

In the night of Wednesday, October 29, an extremist orthodox Jew - chosen by God, invaded the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in the old city of Jerusalem. The Jewish terrorist tried to harm three monks who were worshiping God in the church. The monks saw the terrorist Jew and escaped from his attack, but then the terrorist left the Church and went on to vandalize several Palestinian shops nearby the Church. He broke many wooden crosses before the Palestinians shop owners called the Israeli Police.

.

there is enough of it happening every day over there to think "Jew" when you think terrorist.

 

[Baron Max]

SAM, there ain't no doubt about it .....you're a flaming anti-semite, anti-Jew, and you're full of hate that spews forth on almost all of your posts.

Yes, you should be banned! Yes, you should be controlled around here in some harsh way.

But, see, you're immune to it and, worse, you know it. So ....you just keep spewing forth your hatred while the rest of us have to control ourselves or get banned.

Baron Max

 

[scott3x]

there is enough of it happening every day over there to think "Jew" when you think terrorist.

If you want the kings of destruction, you'd have to think the africans or the americans. And yet I don't think terrorist when I think of africans or americans; only that some people within those regions can wreak havoc. Painting an enormous group with the same brush doesn't help anything. In Israel, Palestine, Africa and America there are the extremists and the moderates. I'd rather be with the moderates in any of the groupings then with the extremists of any of the groupings.

Sometimes I like to think of individuals of the groups even more. I find Natalie Portman a very beautiful woman and I mean her personality as well as her appearance. She also happens to be both jewish and american.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a very beautiful formerly muslim african woman and I think her book 'infidel' has a lot of important things to say about the dark side of islam.

When you focus on individuals instead of painting broad groups with a brush, the beauty is sometimes much clearer. I hope that this discussion could start the good on -both- sides as well as the dark side. I also think it would be good to know more about the participants at times; I know next to nothing about SAM. Is she muslim or simply a sympathizer of the palestinian cause? In terms of self disclosure, I was converted to islam when I was 11 but gave it up at around 16 or 17. But even when I was a muslim, I held nothing against particular religion. As a general rule, when you belong to a particular religion, you tend to think that that religion is the best one, but while this may be so, when I was about 16, I believe that I fell in love with a jewish girl. It didn't work out (I had difficulty just talking to her), but there you have it.

 

[spidergoat]

Evicting people isn't terrorism. At worst it's discrimination.

 

[S.A.M.]

Sheesh if you are going to quote Hirsi Ali to me we are not going to have a conversation. Her entire story is made up to get refugee status and citizenship in the Netherlands and she now works for a Zionist neocon group [American Enterprise Institute] in the US. Say someone like Fareed Zakaria or even reformers like Asghar Ali Engineer or Shirin Ebadi and I'm willing to listen. Don't wave zionists and neocons in my face.

I used to sympathise with the Jews in Israel until I learned the full history of the nakba. Now I can only wonder that with so many eyewitnesses, so little is circulated about it and how easily Palestinians are considered as terrorists while the Israelis are considered as democrats.

With tricks like maintaining a demographic minority of Arabs [kept back as labourers during the nakba] through eviction and transportation and "allowing" them to vote, they can get away with daily missile strikes against an imprisoned people with no arms and sustain a two year blockade with ineffectual international protests that do not give any succour to the Palestinians. They can kidnap an elected parliament and call them terrorists, they can keep the money of the Palestinians and use it to build walls and checkpoints like the Nazis and call it defense. They can cut off the access of the Palestinians to their agricultural land and create an absentee law to give it to Jews, bulldoze their homes, cut off their drinking water to fill swimming pools, shoot rubber bullets into the eyes of their children and STILL, they are the victims.

And any Israeli who sustains this society is complicit in all this. They all do two years of compulsory military service and participate in the occupation.

And if you speak out against this, you are a Jew-hating moronic bigot and an anti-semite with extreme views.

 

[pjdude1219]

Evicting people isn't terrorism. At worst it's discrimination.

but using the fear of it to get a people to do what you want is.

 

[spidergoat]

They aren't the innocent victims, but they are one side in a civil war that has not yet ended.

 

[S.A.M.]

You cannot have a civil war with an occupying regime. How many Jews in Israel are Palestinians? 7% of the original population.

 

[scott3x]

Evicting people isn't terrorism. At worst it's discrimination.

Thank god people aren't generally 'evicted' like this in most developed countries.

 

[spidergoat]

He's playing with a wheel, looks like a peaceful scene. What's going to happen in an earthquake when all these improvised houses collapse and kids like that die? They will probably blame Israel for not doing enough to enforce building codes.

 

[Baron Max]

And if you speak out against this, you are a Jew-hating moronic bigot and an anti-semite with extreme views.

No, SAM, people talk of injustices all over the world without invoking gross racism and/or bigotry .....which is what you do. You're simply wrong, SAM, in blaming all of the Jews or even all of the Israelis about the "injustices" against the Pals. There are many Jews and Israelis who speak out regularly against the treatment of the Pals ....yet in your hatred and bigotry, you blame them, too!!

You're just wrong, SAM, and you know it. You just want to shock people into bcking the Pals. Won't work.

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

You cannot have a civil war with an occupying regime.

Huh? Where did you get that idea?

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

No, SAM, people talk of injustices all over the world without invoking gross racism and/or bigotry .....which is what you do. You're simply wrong, SAM, in blaming all of the Jews or even all of the Israelis about the "injustices" against the Pals. There are many Jews and Israelis who speak out regularly against the treatment of the Pals ....yet in your hatred and bigotry, you blame them, too!!

You're just wrong, SAM, and you know it. You just want to shock people into bcking the Pals. Won't work.

Baron Max

Perhaps I cannot understand those people who tell me I should understand. It were as if I am standing at a checkpoint watching an IDF trooper shooting a kid in the eye and telling me he's doing it in the interest of self preservation - and people around me are flapping their lips about understanding the situation. There are some things that are far too inhumane to understand. An act of passion, I understand. A deliberate policy to make people homeless, starve them, steal from them, maim their children and then demonise them, its Nazi Germany all over again, only this time people are looking on without a care, because its not bad enough [from their perspective] to intervene

 

[Baron Max]

Perhaps I cannot understand those people who tell me I should understand.

Yeah, I agree. Any scientist would understand such things with a simple explanation. That you can't understand it says a lot, don't it?

It were as if I am standing at a checkpoint watching an IDF trooper shooting a kid in the eye and telling me he's doing it in the interest of self preservation - and people around me are flapping their lips about understanding the situation.

See? You just gave a non-hating, non-bigoted, non-racist post. See? You didn't say "all Jews", you didn't say "all Israelis", you mentioned ONE Israeli soldier who did that horrible deed.

All Israelis didn't do it; All Jews didn't do it. So why must you continue to blame them in all of your other posts???

There are some things that are far too inhumane to understand.

Yes, but they are HUMAN events or acts .....NOT... all Israelis or all Jews!!

How many people starved to death today in India, SAM? How many died of malaria? How many died of typhus? India, SAM, has far, far worse problems than the Palestinians.

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

Or maybe I get too much information about the Palestinian situation. Do I blame all the Jews? No, but I do blame the Jewish state, because it is state policy to do these things.

Claxton quoted a UN report that put the number of children shot dead in the past three and a half years at fifty-six. Almost all died as a result of direct fire, not of random shots or ricochet. Not a single Israeli soldier had been imprisoned for the killing of a Palestinian child.

A boy called Jihad, who was himself beaten, described how his father was beaten to death by Israeli soldiers in front of him, his mother and two sisters. On the day the soldiers came to his home, he said, "My father took us into a room and locked the door. . .but they broke it down. . .the soldiers would take his head and hit it against the wall. . .The other soldier broke his truncheon on him. Then he said, 'Bring me a knife. . .he has to die.'" Later, Jihad saw his father's body and described it as "all dissected, his arms and his stomach." Four soldiers were tried, convicted of manslaughter and pardoned. The family has had no compensation.

Lulu is eight years old. A rubber bullet hit her in the brain. She is now a pretty vegetable whose family hug and kiss her, hoping in vain for a reaction. Apart from rubber and plastic bullets "like marble," the Israelis also have a stone-throwing machine that hurls 600 stones a minute. "It's our own intifada on wheels," said an officer.

Children in the Claxton film speak movingly, yet with a curious detachment. "We no longer fear," they said; and that life was a simple matter of "killing or getting killed." A Palestinian psychiatrist said the effect was that "the children take authority into their own hands. Their parents try to protect them, but no one can stop them."

All these damaged children, what is the future for them?

Source: Film Do They Feel My Shadow? made by Nicholas Claxton and Cherry Farrow

 

[scott3x]

Sheesh if you are going to quote Hirsi Ali to me we are not going to have a conversation.

Well, that's your choice to make.

Her entire story is made up to get refugee status and citizenship in the Netherlands

No it wasn't. Have you actually read any of her books?

and she now works for a Zionist neocon group [American Enterprise Institute] in the US.

She did mention in her book "Infidel" that she went to work for a think tank and I believe it was of the conservative bent. As to whether or not it is jewish leanings, you may know more about that then me. If she has gone a bit too far against islam after she wrote infidel, I think it's understandable- a film making friend of hers who she made a film with was killed and she was sequestered away for a long time so that they didn't do the same to her. She's not the only person to whom this has happened- Salman Rushdie was the first. SAM, I can respect your points concerning the dark side of the Israelies, but it seems you turn a blind eye towards the dark side of islam.

Say someone like Fareed Zakaria or even reformers like Asghar Ali Engineer or Shirin Ebadi and I'm willing to listen. Don't wave zionists and neocons in my face.

Unfortunately, I don't know of Fareed, Asghar or Shirin. If I did, I could perhaps have spoken of them as well. As it stands, she's the only muslim woman I know who I found to be a fairly intelligent person.

I used to sympathise with the Jews in Israel until I learned the full history of the nakba.

I just googled it- it seems it has to do with jews losing lands?

Now I can only wonder that with so many eyewitnesses, so little is circulated about it and how easily Palestinians are considered as terrorists while the Israelis are considered as democrats.

SAM, I for one don't see things that black and white. Neither do many more. Just found this link posted 3 hours ago:
Global media executives protest Gaza press ban

With tricks like maintaining a demographic minority of Arabs [kept back as labourers during the nakba] and "allowing" them to vote, they can get away with daily missile strikes against an imprisoned people with no arms

No arms? I know that the Israelies outgun the palestinians, but let's not get carried away. From the link I just cited: "After a recent upsurge in Palestinian rocket fire..."

...and sustain a two year blockade with ineffectual international protests that do not give any succour to the Palestinians.

The situation is definitely messy. However, I think one must also recognize the fact that the hostilities come from both sides.

They can kidnap an elected parliament and call them terrorists...

Surely you recognize that Hamas has done things that can certainly qualify as terroristic acts? Ofcourse, Israel has -also- done many things that could qualify as such. I'm just saying that Hamas aren't all angels. However, I do agree with you that they were democratically elected.

they can keep the money of the Palestinians

Keep the money of the palestinians? Are you saying that the palestinians are giving them money? Or that they're not giving the palestinians the money they used to?

and use it to build walls and checkpoints like the Nazis and call it defense.

The Nazis simply killed many jews outright in concentration camps. The same isn't happening in the case of the palestinians.

They can cut off the access of the Palestinians to their agricultural land and create an absentee law to give it to Jews, bulldoze their homes, cut off their drinking water to fill swimming pools, shoot rubber bullets into the eyes of their children and STILL, they are the victims.

I agree that they have committed many injustices. But you only mention what the jews have done- you don't seem to mention anything the palestinians have done...

And any Israeli who sustains this society is complicit in all this. They all do two years of compulsory military service and participate in the occupation.

The service is compulsory- I imagine that they face jail time if they don't do it. If we want to talk about complicity, why not go straight to america, that provides weaponry and finances a lot of Israel's military exploits? Or to the arab countries that help finance the bloody side of the intifadah?

And if you speak out against this, you are a Jew-hating moronic bigot and an anti-semite with extreme views.

There are different ways of speaking out, I believe. You can say that the isralies are demons and the palestinians innocent victims. Or you can say that both sides have their flaws. Clearly the Israelies have the upper hand militarily, just as americans have the upper hand militarily in Afghanistan and Iraq. This doesn't meant that the israelies or the americans are all demons and their opponents innocent victims, it just means they've got more firepower and therefore have a greater capacity to do harm.

The worst, in my view, is when either side beings to play it fast and loose with 'collateral' damage. As in, well, we hit this target because someone we wanted to kill might be there and to hell with everyone else who may be there at the same time. This, in my view, may seem to work in the short term, but in the long term is a very sloppy way of doing things, and has the capacity of creating more opponents then one started out with. I think it's a big reason that Bill Clinton's Somali enterprise didn't work and I also think it's a big reason that Iraq has finally put its foot down and has worked out that the U.S. leave its lands in 2011.

 

[Baron Max]

Or maybe I get too much information about the Palestinian situation.

Yeah, it inflames your hatred .....then you come here and try to inflame the hatred onto others. That ain't nice, SAM.

Do I blame all the Jews? No, but I do blame the Jewish state, because it is state policy to do these things.

Why bother putting in "Jewish"? Why not just say Israel? By invoking that one word, you're automatically spewing racism, bigotry and hatred of a people who have nothing to do with the situation.

All these damaged children, what is the future for them?

Well, what about all the damaged children in India? Why aren't you more concerned about your own people than a people thousands of miles away? SAM, India has more fuckin' problems than all of the Palestinians combined. So start by taking care of some of your own people first. If you do a good job, perhaps we'll hire you to take care of the Pals.

Baron Max