Reasons not to believe in God

But the question still remains, why bring up deformed children as an example of God's non-existence in the first place?

jan.
To start, examples of non-existence is a tricky position. Rather, it demonstrates a lack of intelligent design.
Which is why he brought it up. It demonstrates that something is lacking. The abilities and persona described as those of God.

While no one could demonstrate a non-existence, we can observe the world around us and reach conclusions as to what does exist. That God falls outside of that list is no more spectacular than Unicorns or Fairies falling outside of that list.

The irony here is that when a believer is questioned as to why God allows this, they say, "God does not interfere."
So, why do people pray? To ask him to interfere when God does not interfere?
Well, then they claim that he does interfere.

Make up your mind.
 
To start, examples of non-existence is a tricky position. Rather, it demonstrates a lack of intelligent design.
Which is why he brought it up. It demonstrates that something is lacking. The abilities and persona described as those of God.

While no one could demonstrate a non-existence, we can observe the world around us and reach conclusions as to what does exist. That God falls outside of that list is no more spectacular than Unicorns or Fairies falling outside of that list.

The irony here is that when a believer is questioned as to why God allows this, they say, "God does not interfere."
So, why do people pray? To ask him to interfere when God does not interfere?
Well, then they claim that he does interfere.

Make up your mind.

I understand the difficulty of the question I posed, and what a true answer can reveal, so I'm going to back-off.

jan.
 
But the question still remains, why bring up deformed children as an example of God's non-existence in the first place?

Probably because the unspoken assumption is that God, if God would exist, would arrange the world in such a way that humans would be pleased; and since humans are generally not particularly pleased, this then means that God does not exist.


To start, examples of non-existence is a tricky position. Rather, it demonstrates a lack of intelligent design.
Which is why he brought it up. It demonstrates that something is lacking. The abilities and persona described as those of God.

While no one could demonstrate a non-existence, we can observe the world around us and reach conclusions as to what does exist. That God falls outside of that list is no more spectacular than Unicorns or Fairies falling outside of that list.

Again, this is still assuming that God, if God would exist, would arrange the world in such a way that humans would be pleased; and since humans are generally not particularly pleased, this then means that God does not exist. Meaning that humans being pleased with the way the world is is assumed as the definitive criterium on God's existence and everything else.

But human pleasure is a tricky business, because it tends to be so inconstant and inconsistent. Something that pleases one person, displeases another. Something that pleases us today, may displease us tomorrow.
This is why being pleased cannot serve as an objective criterium of worth and existence.


The irony here is that when a believer is questioned as to why God allows this, they say, "God does not interfere."

To be sure, only some theists say that.
In some other theistic systems, notably those that have the conception of karma, these issues are immediately relegated to karma.
 
Reasons not to believe in God:

Theistic systems are closed, self-referential, self-verifying systems that can be entered only by birth or by a leap of faith.

Since I was not born into a theistic system, and since I resent leaps of faith, I don't believe in God (leaving aside for the time being what this "to believe in God" means).
 
Probably because the unspoken assumption is that God, if God would exist, would arrange the world in such a way that humans would be pleased; and since humans are generally not particularly pleased, this then means that God does not exist.
Not really, but I like your editorial.

Rather, the arrangement shows a lack of any intelligence or design. Demonstrating a system in which logical properties, measurable quantities and a biological system governed solely by chemical reactions, evolution and chance all demonstrate a lack of divine intervention and design.
To put it this way;
99% of species that ever existed went extinct, they did not make it to today- God sure has a hard time finding the right formula!
So pretty much, your whole post was B.S.
 
Rather, the arrangement shows a lack of any intelligence or design. Demonstrating a system in which logical properties, measurable quantities and a biological system governed solely by chemical reactions, evolution and chance all demonstrate a lack of divine intervention and design.

And these "chemical reactions, evolution and chance" take place in a vacuum, out of nothing?

IOW, the understanding of "GOD" that you operate with is more typical for a demigod with human inclinations.

God's (in the more relevant, traditional understanding of the term) existence and the world being as it is, are not mutually exclusive.


99% of species that ever existed went extinct, they did not make it to today- God sure has a hard time finding the right formula!

Can you explain why you think the above follows?

How is the fact that there are extinct species evidence that God is imperfect (and doesn't exist)?


So pretty much, your whole post was B.S.

It's so nice to be appreciated. :bugeye:
 
And these "chemical reactions, evolution and chance" take place in a vacuum, out of nothing?
This question does not make sense. Perhaps your choice of the word 'vacuum' is the problem. Taking a guess at what you intend to ask, I think you're suggesting that these events take place without a cause.
I'll try an analogy (or parable :p):
The old- "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a noise?"
This philosophical question suggests that unless an event is directly observed, it cannot be known to have happened. Applying this to biological sciences has a similar result. A believer in "God" would possibly suggest that he created the stuff that made life. That he organized it or influenced events to allow it to happen. The tree must have either made a noise or not- it must be known even if only known to God.
An atheist would take the scientific position which is this: If no one hears the tree fall, it cannot be known that it made a noise, but is the most probable logical conclusion that it did follow the well known properties of vibration and make a noise. This conclusion is similar to knowing, just that it is knowing to 99.99% of certainty instead of knowing fully.
Taking on the origin of life--- Emergence.
Emergence is the principle that materials and conditions will follow their properties even if that requires delaying entropy.
An example of this is a snowflake. Hydrogen[sub]2[/sub]-oxygen molecules will stack up, rather than condense when cooled. Entropy wins in the end, when the ice melts, but it was delayed by emergence.
Another example is a diamond. This hard little sucker will delay entropy for a long time, or at least until a gem cutter gets really frustrated with it. But like ice, the carbon stacks up in a structured form- no intelligence needed. It does it every single time.
On life, emergence is when chemical/environmental conditions result in reactions (On Earth) that created complex molecules. That this will happen is like a snowflake- pretty much inevitable. Yes, that's right - It makes life in the Universe other than our own seem quite likely when you understand that the chemical and environmental factors involved don't just suggest it may happen, but rather it must (99.99%) happen the same way a tree falling makes a noise or a snowflake forms when a tiny droplet is frozen, etc.
Once these amino acids click together chemically, they will react with other molecules based on these chemical properties. A chemical that has no reactive value will just bang into it and float on by whereas an attractive chemical reaction will cause anther molecule to bond to it.
Still we see no intelligence, nor do we see a vacuum. We see billiard balls. Think that analogy through.
Once enough time has passed, enough collisions with eachother and other molecules will result in complex molecules that replicate. This form of replication is very simple. It's basic. But... just give it some time... These replications are, again, the cause of those basic chemical reactions of bonding, repelling or banging into something inert.
Eventually the chances that molecules have banged into enough material to have greater complexity is again- the following of chemical properties and observable in the lab. These replicating molecules bump into primitive protein molecules... and give it some more time...
A simple and primitive cell, surrounded by a very basic semi-organic protein shell with a short bundle of replicating molecules contained within- DeoxyriboNucleic Acid. These armored tanks of a primitive cellular world had a great advantage. Give it some more time and they would gather more material which bonds, reacts, repels...

One of the most fascinating things about our modern cell is the Mitochondria. This little hitchhiker was actually a separate cell. Today, it acts as the power house for a cell, but at one time, they existed outside of cells. When primitive cells came across them, they ended up becoming friends, sticking closely together. Eventually, the mitochondria ancestor worked its way into the cell and replicated itself from within, splitting with cells as they divide, having DNA of their own, independent of the cells DNA.

Still no vacuum and still no intelligence. The many millions of years to go from a very, very primitive molecule to a complex operating cell defy the hand of divine intervention. Random encounters, bumping into other molecules explains that amount of time, but a designer does not. One can safely make a conclusion- 99.99% accurate.

Eventually, entropy catches up to these cells. They die and in time, too many disruptions in that DNA leads to systematic failures. We die.

Still, no "Nothing" as an origin. Not only not nothing, but chemicals that repeatedly lead to the same reactions and the same conclusions.
Can you explain why you think the above follows?
It directs your attention to massive time scales involved. If there was a God that created all things, it's more logical that he would have done it right the first time.
However, if there is no intelligent designer, just chance encounters, it would take a very, very long time for any changes or adaptions (Observed), species adapted to environments would go extinct when environments change faster than they adapt rather than being directed to adapt faster (Observed), and these chance encounters would lead to a large variety of many distinct and even specialized animals (observed) along with the ability to observe these changes in bacterial cultures in effect, because those cultures pass generations so quickly (observed.) Whew! Long sentence.
It's so nice to be appreciated. :bugeye:
Ain't it just.
 
Yahoo News Blog said:
Giant crucifix's tragic fall


A deeply religious man lost his leg after a statue he believes cured his wife's cancer crushes him. Church's response

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/york-man-crushed-giant-crucifix-leg-amputated-191700439.html

This story is about the strange turns that faith can take. I can relate to this type of apparent inconsistency from when I was younger, before I decided the dogma that I was indoctrinated with was definitely bogus.
 
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Whatever you do, don't demean yourself.

Now back on the thread theme - many may want to argue that there is no point in having "reasons not to believe in God," because that suggests that God exists, only God does not seem to come to the party and explain why there is suffering.

You can't say for example, that deformed births are bad, because there is no "good" and "bad" in this world according to science, it's all relative, part of probability and subject to time and circumstance.

If you believe that the general consensus to be compassionate is "a developed human trend worth keeping",

then, we cannot say it must be kept, indeed, compassion may be preventing progress, and may have to be eliminated.

Only the general trend of evolution has the right to determine what is acceptable and what is not, and it does that through the god of science - pure mathematics, and of course many accidents.

But you are saying - defects are sorry and bad, therefore that is a reason not to believe in God. Do you have a right to make a statement about good or bad?

In that case, it is of equal importance to say that, if flowers bloom, couples fall in love and the vast majority of babies are terrific, they are reasons not to believe in God.

Sure, I have a total right to say what is good or bad. In fact I do it every day based on reason, empathy, and a value for life itself. Terminal prenatal deformities are bad for babies, bad for families, and just bad altogther. I don't need to posit a magic man in the sky to think that either. Are you seriously justifying the existence of chance and tragedy in a universe run by your God? What kind of sleazeball do you worship that sits by and watches this crap happen without doing anything? To even suggest the existence of a loving all-powerful being in the face of such tragedies suggests an emotional numbness to the human condition that I can't even imagine. What would YOU tell the parent of one of these kids? That God had an off day but will still be round to help later? That he was respecting our free choice--by taking away the free choice of the baby?
 
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http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/york-man-crushed-giant-crucifix-leg-amputated-191700439.html

This story is about the strange turns that faith can take. I can relate to this type of apparent inconsistency when I was younger, before I decided the dogma that I was indoctrinated with was definitely bogus.
I don't understand. Why is he planning to sue that church for three million dollars? Wouldn't it be easier just to go back to the statue and pray over it again to cure his leg?
It's not like it can fall again. It's already on the ground. Just stretch out beside it and go to town.

Lay 'n Pray.
 
Nihilist who certainly exist say life is without "objective" meaning. Life is to grow. Growth is an objective. Knowledge.

True atheism (not faith(which is a lie)) is inherently a nihilistic standpoint which is inherently wrong. The imagination is a factual standpoint of things that DO, and WILL exist. The imagination represents everything that will ever exist, and does exist in the universe. I imagine, and communicate with God, and angels on a daily basis. The dinner table was once imagined along with every other useful inanimate object we use today. Given the imaginations impeccable rate of success at knowing, and giving to the universe I say Faith, Science, and Know.

Check. Atheism is not faith to God (theism: faith to it). To not believe is to be wrong. If you "don't believe"
1. You are lying.
2. There really is no God, and by that to have imagined a lie you lose.

Atheist's nihilistic nature makes them murderers to an existing universe. Action must be taken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism
 
i don't understand. Why is he planning to sue that church for three million dollars? Wouldn't it be easier just to go back to the statue and pray over it again to cure his leg?
It's not like it can fall again. It's already on the ground. Just stretch out beside it and go to town.

Lay 'n pray.

lol
 
Nihilist who certainly exist say life is without "objective" meaning. Life is to grow. Growth is an objective. Knowledge.

True atheism (not faith(which is a lie)) is inherently a nihilistic standpoint which is inherently wrong. The imagination is a factual standpoint of things that DO, and WILL exist. The imagination represents everything that will ever exist, and does exist in the universe. I imagine, and communicate with God, and angels on a daily basis. The dinner table was once imagined along with every other useful inanimate object we use today. Given the imaginations impeccable rate of success at knowing, and giving to the universe I say Faith, Science, and Know.

Check. Atheism is not faith to God (theism: faith to it). To not believe is to be wrong. If you "don't believe"
1. You are lying.
2. There really is no God, and by that to have imagined a lie you lose.

Atheist's nihilistic nature makes them murderers to an existing universe. Action must be taken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism
I once met a horse that convinced me that I was just a dream and that the hills were perfectly round but the ocean was not there.
I tried to convince him that eagles do not care but he was not listening because the fractured glass in the lens of his eye was deaf.
 
Cole grey, it is secular. That position (regardless of the beliefs of those involved) does not deal with any divine intervention, any God in any way. The rationalizations that some Christians will do, (Both surgery and prayer) is merely a method of coping, not an effective way of finding resolution.
The methods are entirely secular.

I find it interesting that you point out that it is the reasonable stance.
The methods are derived secularly and USED universally, so if you are talking about a method being USED by either secular people or religious people, there is a problem. You attribute qualities that are not accurate to describe religious people, i.e. that they sit around and pray and don't actively do work to see "what is" and manipulate it. Religious people clearly do not do that, as a general rule. They, almost invariably, are just as active in manipulating the known world, as any non-religious person is. Saying these religious people are using "secular" methods when they use a cup to drink coffee, instead of trying to pray the coffee into their mouth, is pretty useless. Prayer is generally used to cover the parts of situations in which there are unknowns, and where there is a lack of information a secular method is just as "worthless" as a prayer method. Trying to do something and then praying "please make this work out", is merely trying to control the unknown, in that any endeavor may or may not work out, surgeries included. It is basically a method people use to load the dice of life, and until we have a method by which we can tell what would have happened, in one specific situation, if someone hadn't prayed, I will maintain that we don't have sufficient information to decide the efficacy of prayer, beyond the obvious benefits.

If there is someone who believes science is not useful, in removing limbs for example, they are a crackpot. However, i would say that it is a commonly accepted understanding that having a "coping" mechanism is effective in healthcare, because having a positive attitude is - "Many accept that prayer can aid in recovery, not due to divine influence but due to psychological and physical benefits. It has also been suggested that if a person knows that he or she is being prayed for it can be uplifting and increase morale, thus aiding recovery. (See Subject-expectancy effect.) Many studies have suggested that prayer can reduce physical stress, regardless of the god or gods a person prays to, and this may be true for many non-supernatural reasons. According to a study by Centra State Hospital, "the psychological benefits of prayer may help reduce stress and anxiety, promote a more positive outlook, and strengthen the will to live."[14] Other practices such as Yoga, T'ai chi, and Meditation may also have a positive impact on physical and psychological health." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer

EDIT - my personal belief is that prayer is generally not useful as a tool to manipulate events, and that the "dice of life" can't be loaded, but that is only my perspective.
 
Nihilist who certainly exist say life is without "objective" meaning. Life is to grow. Growth is an objective. Knowledge.

True atheism (not faith(which is a lie)) is inherently a nihilistic standpoint which is inherently wrong. The imagination is a factual standpoint of things that DO, and WILL exist. The imagination represents everything that will ever exist, and does exist in the universe. I imagine, and communicate with God, and angels on a daily basis. The dinner table was once imagined along with every other useful inanimate object we use today. Given the imaginations impeccable rate of success at knowing, and giving to the universe I say Faith, Science, and Know.

Check. Atheism is not faith to God (theism: faith to it). To not believe is to be wrong. If you "don't believe"
1. You are lying.
2. There really is no God, and by that to have imagined a lie you lose.

Atheist's nihilistic nature makes them murderers to an existing universe. Action must be taken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

I disagree that atheism is inherently nihilist. There are many atheists who might subscribe to a sort of Platonic view of a universe with eternal ideals and values. There are others who are Buddhist and conclude consciousness to be the ultimate substrate of existence. I DO agree that if an atheist is a reductive physicalist, he has basically ruled out meaning as an INHERENT trait of the universe. But meaning could still be a justifiably IMPOSED trait created by human consciousness. IOW, humans CREATE the meaning that surrounds them.
 
The methods are derived secularly and USED universally, so if you are talking about a method being USED by either secular people or religious people, there is a problem. You attribute qualities that are not accurate to describe religious people, i.e. that they sit around and pray and don't actively do work to see "what is" and manipulate it.
Very well, I see your point. However, you're missing mine. I demonstrated the sharp contrast between what is effective and what is not effective. Prayer is not secular.
A method that is not based on prayer, religion, scripture, dogma, etc. is for this example. You're going of on an unnecessary tangent.
 
This question does not make sense. Perhaps your choice of the word 'vacuum' is the problem. Taking a guess at what you intend to ask, I think you're suggesting that these events take place without a cause.
I'll try an analogy (or parable :p):
The old- "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a noise?"
This philosophical question suggests that unless an event is directly observed, it cannot be known to have happened. Applying this to biological sciences has a similar result. A believer in "God" would possibly suggest that he created the stuff that made life. That he organized it or influenced events to allow it to happen. The tree must have either made a noise or not- it must be known even if only known to God.
An atheist would take the scientific position which is this: If no one hears the tree fall, it cannot be known that it made a noise, but is the most probable logical conclusion that it did follow the well known properties of vibration and make a noise. This conclusion is similar to knowing, just that it is knowing to 99.99% of certainty instead of knowing fully.
Taking on the origin of life--- Emergence.
Emergence is the principle that materials and conditions will follow their properties even if that requires delaying entropy.
An example of this is a snowflake. Hydrogen[sub]2[/sub]-oxygen molecules will stack up, rather than condense when cooled. Entropy wins in the end, when the ice melts, but it was delayed by emergence.
Another example is a diamond. This hard little sucker will delay entropy for a long time, or at least until a gem cutter gets really frustrated with it. But like ice, the carbon stacks up in a structured form- no intelligence needed. It does it every single time.
On life, emergence is when chemical/environmental conditions result in reactions (On Earth) that created complex molecules. That this will happen is like a snowflake- pretty much inevitable. Yes, that's right - It makes life in the Universe other than our own seem quite likely when you understand that the chemical and environmental factors involved don't just suggest it may happen, but rather it must (99.99%) happen the same way a tree falling makes a noise or a snowflake forms when a tiny droplet is frozen, etc.
Once these amino acids click together chemically, they will react with other molecules based on these chemical properties. A chemical that has no reactive value will just bang into it and float on by whereas an attractive chemical reaction will cause anther molecule to bond to it.
Still we see no intelligence, nor do we see a vacuum. We see billiard balls. Think that analogy through.
Once enough time has passed, enough collisions with eachother and other molecules will result in complex molecules that replicate. This form of replication is very simple. It's basic. But... just give it some time... These replications are, again, the cause of those basic chemical reactions of bonding, repelling or banging into something inert.
Eventually the chances that molecules have banged into enough material to have greater complexity is again- the following of chemical properties and observable in the lab. These replicating molecules bump into primitive protein molecules... and give it some more time...
A simple and primitive cell, surrounded by a very basic semi-organic protein shell with a short bundle of replicating molecules contained within- DeoxyriboNucleic Acid. These armored tanks of a primitive cellular world had a great advantage. Give it some more time and they would gather more material which bonds, reacts, repels...

One of the most fascinating things about our modern cell is the Mitochondria. This little hitchhiker was actually a separate cell. Today, it acts as the power house for a cell, but at one time, they existed outside of cells. When primitive cells came across them, they ended up becoming friends, sticking closely together. Eventually, the mitochondria ancestor worked its way into the cell and replicated itself from within, splitting with cells as they divide, having DNA of their own, independent of the cells DNA.

Still no vacuum and still no intelligence. The many millions of years to go from a very, very primitive molecule to a complex operating cell defy the hand of divine intervention. Random encounters, bumping into other molecules explains that amount of time, but a designer does not. One can safely make a conclusion- 99.99% accurate.

Eventually, entropy catches up to these cells. They die and in time, too many disruptions in that DNA leads to systematic failures. We die.

Still, no "Nothing" as an origin. Not only not nothing, but chemicals that repeatedly lead to the same reactions and the same conclusions.

Where have space, time and matter/energy come from? How come they persist, as opposed to poofing out of existence?


It directs your attention to massive time scales involved. If there was a God that created all things, it's more logical that he would have done it right the first time.

It looks like you took your understanding of the word "logic" from popular sci-fi shows.

Whoever wrote Spock's lines has certainly helped to massively mislead people as to what the word means, and how very easy it is to abuse it.

If pigs can fly, then it's only logical that pigs are birds and therefore, have feathers and no teeth.
 
Where have space, time and matter/energy come from?
Best answer I can give would lead you to a millisecond after the Big Bang event. Prior to that- I do not know.
But you must ask yourself at that point... If we agree then, that God did that, and then lacks in presence ever after that- what is the point in believing God was around about 14 billion years ago and then left? Kinda moot, really.
How come they persist, as opposed to poofing out of existence?
This is a nonsense question. There is nothing to make them poof out of existence. They do not persist- they exist.
It looks like you took your understanding of the word "logic" from popular sci-fi shows.
Nope, took it from logic.
 
Nihilist who certainly exist say life is without "objective" meaning. Life is to grow. Growth is an objective. Knowledge.

True atheism (not faith(which is a lie)) is inherently a nihilistic standpoint which is inherently wrong. The imagination is a factual standpoint of things that DO, and WILL exist. The imagination represents everything that will ever exist, and does exist in the universe. I imagine, and communicate with God, and angels on a daily basis. The dinner table was once imagined along with every other useful inanimate object we use today. Given the imaginations impeccable rate of success at knowing, and giving to the universe I say Faith, Science, and Know.

Check. Atheism is not faith to God (theism: faith to it). To not believe is to be wrong. If you "don't believe"
1. You are lying.
2. There really is no God, and by that to have imagined a lie you lose.

Atheist's nihilistic nature makes them murderers to an existing universe. Action must be taken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

Atheism is NOT inherently nihilistic. Atheistic minds come in all flavors and colors. Some are buddhists who view consciousness as the fundmental ontic substrate. Some like myself hold a Platonic view where mental properties exist independently of physical matter. As a matter of fact, I would put forth the radical thesis that it is theism that leads to a logical nihilism. All matter and substance IMPOSED with value and meaning from an outer divine source? All good the mere will of said divine entity? What sort of universe does this leave us with? An array of dead and inanimate objects that have to be magically powered by an external supernatural force. A world as void of inherent meaning and value as any nihilist would dare propose.
 
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