Reasons not to believe in God

[Gerhard Kemmerer]

Here's a good reason not to believe in God. I call it "inelegant design":

What are you complaining about, the choice of people in screwing with their world, or necessities of the evolution of the species?

You can't complain against God, He doesn't exist, according to your previous post.

 

[Aqueous Id]

Here's a good reason not to believe in God. I call it "inelegant design":

What are you complaining about, the choice of people in screwing with their world, or necessities of the evolution of the species?

I think the complaint would be that if God can punish the innocent, than all bets are off as far as any absolute morality. It's the most severe case imaginable of "do as I say, not as I do."

 

[Gerhard Kemmerer]

The sins of the parents visited upon the children. The first and most blaring premise of Judaism and Christianity. And the most cruelly unjust.

Yet we understand this today as the consequence of mutation (and other issues during the embryonic development). No sins at all (excluding the substance abuse of the expectant mother).

By the way, the sins are visited, not the offspring. If your father was a jerk, (illustration only) God will make sure that you get the message not to be like him - He will visit the sins of your father that you have inherited or learned off him. That's doing you a favour.

 

[Gerhard Kemmerer]

I think the complaint would be that if God can punish the innocent, than all bets are off as far as any absolute morality. It's the most severe case imaginable of "do as I say, not as I do."

consequence - punishment

Big debate or simple? Mmm. I don't feel confident to go there. I'll wait and see where Magical wants the thread to go.

 

[Neverfly]

consequence - punishment

Big debate or simple? Mmm. I don't feel confident to go there. I'll wait and see where Magical wants the thread to go.

You were confident enough a few posts ago...

 

[Magical Realist]

Here's a good reason not to believe in God. I call it "inelegant design":

What are you complaining about, the choice of people in screwing with their world, or necessities of the evolution of the species?

You can't complain against God, He doesn't exist, according to your previous post.

I believe my OP was regarding reasons not to believe God exists. I just presented one. What's your problem? Why are you even posting in this thread?

 

[kx000]

Reason is behind faith. If one did not believe they would have to be a liar. They would literally have to BELIEVE that they do NOT believe!

 

[Jan Ardena]

You're right. This woman was clearly not religious.

No need to be sarcastic, this IS a discussion. Right?

Sara Ege used a stick to beat seven-year-old Yaseen “like a dog” if he couldn’t recite passages from the Holy Quran, the Telegraph reported on Thursday

In a video recording of her interview with police, Mrs Ege told them: “I was trying to teach him the Quran.
“I was getting more and more frustrated. If he didn’t read it properly I would be very angry — I would hit him.

''We had a high target. I wanted him to learn 35 pages in three months.''

''I promised him a new bike if he could do it. But Yaseen wasn’t very good — after a year of practice he had only learnt a chapter.''

They wanted him to become a hafiz-e-Quran.

I was getting all this bad stuff in my head, like I couldn’t concentrate, I was getting angry too much, I would shout at Yaseen all the time.

''

Hate to break it to you, but there is nothing that say's the mother was religious, or was motivated by ''religion''.

This type of murder is called ''filicide'' and is usually followed by the parent commiting suicide afterward (filicide-suicide), but not in all cases.

You may be interested in a study which looks into this phenomena in detail, and you'll be hard-pushed to find ''religion'' as a motivation.

jan.

 

[Aqueous Id]

By the way, the sins are visited, not the offspring. If your father was a jerk, (illustration only) God will make sure that you get the message not to be like him - He will visit the sins of your father that you have inherited or learned off him. That's doing you a favour.

"I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children...

In my college years I assisted a neighborhood family whose son was nearly completely paralyzed by muscular dystrophy. From the neck down he was limp as a rag doll. His mother had suffered a spinal nerve injury from years of lifting her helpless child from his wheelchair, and needed help. This angelic child, whose innocent personality was only emerging when the paralysis set in, had already dissolved into a state of withdrawal by the time I arrived on the scene. He rarely acknowledged me, and when he did, it was with terse expressions of indifference. Anyone who spent a little time with him would have been driven to tears. It took every ounce of emotional stamina for me to keep gently reaching out to him, to try to encourage him to keep expressing his wishes, whether it was for a sip of water, to shift his position, to read to him or tell him stories of my own, or to find anything at all that remained interesting to him.

He was never given any cause to associate his hellish existence with any crime of his parents, particularly since they were saintly people who -- until their lives were disrupted by his disability -- had every day been actively involved in community service, volunteering at their church and school, running food and clothing drives for the poor, dressing as clowns to cheer up other people's sick children at the hospital, at a frenetic rate -- usually juggling multiple projects per week. And the idea that his parents had somehow provoked God to do this to him as a warning became impossibly moot as his young mind deteriorated.

He suffered for years, as did the whole family. But before he died he learned that his younger brother, who had begun falling down, subsequently tested positive. Since this brother had an identical twin, the older brother at some point realized that he would precede them both in death by perhaps a few years. He knew that both boys would run the same excruciating gauntlet he had run. This was the only substantial information for him, shortly before his death, to associate with the hell that had been inflicted on him. There was no indication whatsoever that he should associate it with his father, much less anything his father might have conceivably done wrong, or anything remotely suggesting it.

The belief that God tortures, maims and kills innocent and helpless children--as learning tool--is utterly outrageous.

After the last child died, the older sisters made a pact. They went together in solidarity, all 7 of them, and had their tubes tied. And that was the only lesson learned.

 

[Gerhard Kemmerer]

I believe my OP was regarding reasons not to believe God exists. I just presented one. What's your problem? Why are you even posting in this thread?

I'm confused, God doesn't exist because He is bad, or because bad things happen?
So if the local company did not throw their toxins into the water then God exists?
I do wonder why I am posting in this thread and I don't want to be irrelevant.

 

[Gerhard Kemmerer]

"I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children...

In my college years ...
After the last child died, the older sisters made a pact. They went together in solidarity, all 7 of them, and had their tubes tied. And that was the only lesson learned.

Visiting the iniquity not the consequences. Ezekiel 18:2,3 "The father's have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge" As I live, says the Lord God you will not have any occasion to use this proverb ...as the soul of the father so also the soul of the son... the soul that sins it shall die"

Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

I am very touched by your story and so glad that you were there to demonstrate that unconditional love, I am sure he felt it even though not always able to show his gratitude. The world needs more people like you.

 

[Neverfly]

No need to be sarcastic, this IS a discussion. Right?

Hate to break it to you, but there is nothing that say's the mother was religious, or was motivated by ''religion''.

This type of murder is called ''filicide'' and is usually followed by the parent commiting suicide afterward (filicide-suicide), but not in all cases.

You may be interested in a which looks into this phenomena in detail, and you'll be hard-pushed to find ''religion'' as a motivation.

jan.

Religion was a part of the motivation. I am not saying that it is the motivation. Take religion entirely out of the picture- now- try again and see if she would do the same actions, even if she was totally non-religious.
Do we know the answer? I believe that the chances of her commuting the same acts would be reduced, but not eliminated by removing one factor.

A weak mind can be influenced, you see.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Neverfly,

Religion was a part of the motivation.

Did you not read the highlighted parts I posted?

I am not saying that it is the motivation. Take religion entirely out of the picture- now- try again and see if she would do the same actions, even if she was totally non-religious.

That is exactly what you're trying to say, which is why you posted the link in this thread.

''Religion'' isn't in the picture, and her reason for killing was not religious.
Provide some reasoning for this accusation, or retract the statement as it is very misleading.

Do we know the answer?

As far as we know from the link you provided, we do.
The highlighted section, plus we can get a better psychological profile from studies that have been carried out.

I believe that the chances of her commuting the same acts would be reduced, but not eliminated by removing one factor.

Why do you think this?

A weak mind can be influenced, you see.

So you're saying people who believe in GOD are weak-minded?

What is the evidence for this?

jan.

 

[Neverfly]

That is exactly what you're trying to say, which is why you posted the link in this thread.

I have said what I am trying to say. Do not re-interprete what I say, Jan. I get enough of that from others.
I say what I mean and I mean what I say.

''Religion'' isn't in the picture, and her reason for killing was not religious.
Provide some reasoning for this accusation, or retract the statement as it is very misleading.

My statements were not misleading- your re-interpretation of them may make them appear to be. I said it clearly- the woman was heavily influenced.
The religion is not to blame for her behavior. She is. She may have done that even if she lacked belief in deities. However, the strong influence that played on her mind cannot be denied. If that influence was removed, it also may have prevented that extreme behavior.

So you're saying people who believe in GOD are weak-minded?

What is the evidence for this?

jan.

This is a good and fair question.

The answer is: Yes, I believe that the strong belief in religion is a weak minded effort. However, it does not mean the person has a weak mind- it means they are choosing a weak mind.
I do believe some people have little choice, that they simply are doing the best they can with what they have. I believe others have a strong choice on the matter and many are indoctrinated but overcome that and have a stronger mind.

 

[Magical Realist]

I'm confused, God doesn't exist because He is bad, or because bad things happen?
So if the local company did not throw their toxins into the water then God exists?
I do wonder why I am posting in this thread and I don't want to be irrelevant.

Let's not be facetious here. I think you well know how deformed babies is a reason why God doesn't exist. Let's take this to a personal level where you can feel it. If YOUR child was born like one of these kids, you would definitely be questioning the existence of a benevolent God in charge of the universe. If random mutations can screw up the lives of human beings so easily, obviously there's no caring God out there in charge of the process. The VERY process creationists tout as being proof of the existence of an intelligent designer.

 

[Magical Realist]

Neverfly,



Did you not read the highlighted parts I posted?



That is exactly what you're trying to say, which is why you posted the link in this thread.

''Religion'' isn't in the picture, and her reason for killing was not religious.
Provide some reasoning for this accusation, or retract the statement as it is very misleading.




As far as we know from the link you provided, we do.
The highlighted section, plus we can get a better psychological profile from studies that have been carried out.




Why do you think this?





So you're saying people who believe in GOD are weak-minded?

What is the evidence for this?

jan.

When a mother is beating her kid for not properly quoting passages from the Koran then yes religion is the motivation. How can you can claim otherwise?

 

[kx000]

When a mother is beating her kid for not properly quoting passages from the Koran then yes religion is the motivation. How can you can claim otherwise?

The mother hit the child? People like this don't usually seek motivation, and when they find him he would tell them to take a hike. She is probably just a bad mother sucking up to God through the church.

 

[Jan Ardena]

When a mother is beating her kid for not properly quoting passages from the Koran then yes religion is the motivation. How can you can claim otherwise?

Read the bolded parts of the quote I gave then explain where ''religion'' comes into it.
The mother is a nutter, who couldn't stand her child's failure, irritating her to the point of murder.
IOW, a pushy parent who took it too far. It's more likely she felt embarrased.

jan.

jan.

 

[Magical Realist]

Read the bolded parts of the quote I gave then explain where ''religion'' comes into it.
The mother is a nutter, who couldn't stand her child's failure, irritating her to the point of murder.
IOW, a pushy parent who took it too far. It's more likely she felt embarrased.

jan.

jan.

She was a religious nut. A common variety in this day and age.

 

[Magical Realist]

"I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children...

In my college years I assisted a neighborhood family whose son was nearly completely paralyzed by muscular dystrophy. From the neck down he was limp as a rag doll. His mother had suffered a spinal nerve injury from years of lifting her helpless child from his wheelchair, and needed help. This angelic child, whose innocent personality was only emerging when the paralysis set in, had already dissolved into a state of withdrawal by the time I arrived on the scene. He rarely acknowledged me, and when he did, it was with terse expressions of indifference. Anyone who spent a little time with him would have been driven to tears. It took every ounce of emotional stamina for me to keep gently reaching out to him, to try to encourage him to keep expressing his wishes, whether it was for a sip of water, to shift his position, to read to him or tell him stories of my own, or to find anything at all that remained interesting to him.

He was never given any cause to associate his hellish existence with any crime of his parents, particularly since they were saintly people who -- until their lives were disrupted by his disability -- had every day been actively involved in community service, volunteering at their church and school, running food and clothing drives for the poor, dressing as clowns to cheer up other people's sick children at the hospital, at a frenetic rate -- usually juggling multipling projects per week. And the idea that his parents had somehow provoked God to do this to him as a warning became impossibly moot as his young mind deteriorated.

He suffered for years, as did the whole family. But before he died he learned that his younger brother, who had begun falling down, subsequently tested positive. Since this brother had an identical twin, the older brother at some point realized that he would precede them both in death by perhaps a few years. He knew that both boys would run the same excruciating gauntlet he had run. This was the only substantial information for him, shortly before his death, to associate with the hell that had been inflicted on him. There was no indication whatsoever that he should associate it with his father, much less anything his father might have conceivably done wrong, or anything remotely suggesting it.

The belief that God tortures, maims and kills innocent and helpless children--as learning tool--is utterly outrageous.

After the last child died, the older sisters made a pact. They went together in solidarity, all 7 of them, and had their tubes tied. And that was the only lesson learned.

Wow. It's stories like that that bring home the total uselessness of religion as a viable explanation for human existence. How can anyone glibly claim after all this that well, God really loves them and it was his will afterall? Such tragic events underscore the total indifference of fate and the universe to our lives. There is no loving being out there protecting us and blessing us with special favors. Life is a crap shoot from the moment you're born until you die. And all of human experience confirms this.