Rape and the "Civilized" World

[Tiassa]

Variable Threshold Mysterium

Advocating invisible outer boundaries to rape prevention is no different than advocating the open-ended strategy LG and his cadre of buffoons promote.

What slays me about this is that these peple don't want to be viewed as misogynistic while prescribing that recognition of a woman's humanity varies from woman to woman, according to standards these prevention advocates refuse to identify.

And no matter how much they disdain such arguments and accusations, they simply won't do the one thing that puts that part of the discussion to rest.

 

[billvon]

This isn't about when a woman is comfortable being raped.

Right. It's about PREVENTING RAPE. For some reason you'd rather women submit to it.

This is about a societal expectation, an unlimited prevention theory whose advocates at once are offended by the implications and refuse to establish boundaries, and now you're piling that societal expectation onto women.

You apparently have some problem with the concept of personal freedom.

YOU get to choose your OWN boundaries for risk. You do not get to choose other people's boundaries. You do not get to say, for example "wear a long skirt or it's your fault if you get raped." You do not get to say "wear a short skirt or you are a coward living in fear."

The prevention theory question arises in the first place because there is a widespread myth that blames rape victims for the actions of the rapist. So the question arises: Just how much does a woman have to do before society will stop blaming her for being raped?

Easy. She does not have to do anything. (There are, of course, idiots out there who will blame the rape on her for wearing short skirts, just as there are idiots who will claim she's "living in fear" if she wears a long one.)

But the underlying suggestion is that if a woman has the ability to govern and discipline herself by use of reason, she can prevent being raped.

You are very confused. A woman has the ability to govern and discipline herself. That does not mean she can always prevent being raped.

And where we're at in this discussion is that the prevention advocates just don't want to admit that they haven't a clue how to devise that reasonable outer boundary.

And the rape submission advocates don't understand that IT IS UP TO THE WOMAN. Not you. You don't get to impose your will on women no matter how much you want to.

And here's today evil rape prevention advocate:
=====================
OKC Police: Woman Fights Off Would-Be Rapist
May 06, 2013 11:13 AM PDT

OKLAHOMA CITY

A 65-year-old woman managed to fight off a man who broke into her Oklahoma City home and attempted to rape her, police say.

The victim said on May 3, she walked outside her apartment in the 900 block of Kentucky Avenue so she could let her dog out. She said the suspect, 39-year-old Dominic Polk, was standing outside her door. She said she recognized him from around the neighborhood but didn’t know him.

The victim said Polk pushed her back into her apartment and onto the floor. He then shut the front door and barricaded it by placing a board in front of it.

The victim told police Polk climbed on top of her but she was able to force him off and run to the kitchen. She grabbed a knife and cut him with it, but Polk managed to push her back down and partially pull off her pants.

The victim said she kicked Polk in the groin and got away again, running to the bathroom. She said Polk forced his way inside and was about to assault her when police arrived.
===============

How un-PC of her not to submit!

 

[Bells]

And the rape submission advocates don't understand that IT IS UP TO THE WOMAN. Not you. You don't get to impose your will on women no matter how much you want to.

Then perhaps you can explain to me why you are demanding that women take "responsibility" to prevent being raped?

And perhaps you can explain to me why it is up to the woman to not be raped, instead of up to the rapist to not rape?

You view our saying that the onus should not be on women to not be raped as being "submission advocates".. It defies logic, really.

Could it be because you are not demanding that women prevent themselves from being raped?

For you people, she either submits or she prevents herself from being raped. You have yet to define where the prevention theory ends. And say at one point a woman should somehow or other expect to not be raped. Because we have gone from business practices and OH&S principles, to describing women as being akin to unlocked cars, to describing women like 3 year old's to demands that women who do not buy into the prevention theory argument somehow prefer to be raped, and so on and so forth.

This doesn't disturb you at all?

Because in every single argument put forward by you people, it has been the responsibility of the woman to not be raped. And if she somehow does not do what she can to prevent her rape, what then?

What if she does submit to it?

How about this?

How you prevent men from raping? How about you turn the prevention theory onto the rapist instead? And stop demanding that "it is up to woman" to not be raped.

 

[Balerion]

What if she does submit to it?

I'm beginning to think some of the prevention advocates here simply haven't given it much thought. I mean, how else to explain the paradoxical assertion that it isn't the woman's fault yet it's her responsibility? Sure, LG's and wynn's positions are rooted in a fallacious concept of rape (ie "Would you rather be right or raped") but there is a misogynistic undertone that can't be ignored. With some others, though, I have to wonder if it's simply a matter of ignorance, rather than nefarious and willful ignorance.

Your question quoted above strikes to the heart of it: If submission is ultimately up to the woman, what happens when she actually does submit? It's this wrinkle that, at least to this point, has been overlooked by prevention advocates. However, their arguments infer that the woman who submits is endorsing her own rape. They won't like that implication, but it's not pulled out of thin air:

And the rape submission advocates don't understand that IT IS UP TO THE WOMAN. ​

Here, the prevention advocate, by framing us as "submission advocates," has, perhaps inadvertently, given a blanket condemnation of any woman who submits. What do you want to bet he's never considered what submission actually is? His view of rape as as an either-or proposition suggests as much; if you get raped, you simply didn't take the necessary steps to defend yourself; if you submit, you endorse the attack.

And why is it always the woman's job to prevent rape? We know LG believes that it's absurd to suggest that men apply prevention strategy techniques, but I feel like some of the others--like Randwolf and Billvon--are actually positing some warped vision of women's lib. No, seriously! They don't seem to be coming from a position of hatred or mistrust, as LG and his mini-me Wynn are; rather, it seems they want to empower women to be the masters of their own destiny. But in doing so, they stumbled into a minefield.

Perhaps instead of tenaciously defending their facile arguments (in ALL CAPS, no less), they should take the time to actually study the subject they're discussing. Though, in retrospect, all that's really needed is some thought.

 

[Bells]

I'm beginning to think some of the prevention advocates here simply haven't given it much thought. I mean, how else to explain the paradoxical assertion that it isn't the woman's fault yet it's her responsibility? Sure, LG's and wynn's positions are rooted in a fallacious concept of rape (ie "Would you rather be right or raped") but there is a misogynistic undertone that can't be ignored. With some others, though, I have to wonder if it's simply a matter of ignorance, rather than nefarious and willful ignorance.

Your question quoted above strikes to the heart of it: If submission is ultimately up to the woman, what happens when she actually does submit? It's this wrinkle that, at least to this point, has been overlooked by prevention advocates. However, their arguments infer that the woman who submits is endorsing her own rape. They won't like that implication, but it's not pulled out of thin air:

And the rape submission advocates don't understand that IT IS UP TO THE WOMAN. ​

Here, the prevention advocate, by framing us as "submission advocates," has, perhaps inadvertently, given a blanket condemnation of any woman who submits. What do you want to bet he's never considered what submission actually is? His view of rape as as an either-or proposition suggests as much; if you get raped, you simply didn't take the necessary steps to defend yourself; if you submit, you endorse the attack.

And why is it always the woman's job to prevent rape? We know LG believes that it's absurd to suggest that men apply prevention strategy techniques, but I feel like some of the others--like Randwolf and Billvon--are actually positing some warped vision of women's lib. No, seriously! They don't seem to be coming from a position of hatred or mistrust, as LG and his mini-me Wynn are; rather, it seems they want to empower women to be the masters of their own destiny. But in doing so, they stumbled into a minefield.

Perhaps instead of tenaciously defending their facile arguments (in ALL CAPS, no less), they should take the time to actually study the subject they're discussing. Though, in retrospect, all that's really needed is some thought.

I think one of the glaring omissions by the rape prevention crowd is that they keep focusing more on stranger rape and have yet to provide how a woman is meant to beat her loved one to prevent herself from being raped. A woman, for example, will probably submit to being raped by her spouse or intimate partner, because to fight back as they teach you in self defense classes is not something she may wish to go through with her spouse, particularly if her children are sleeping in the next room. I don't quite think they understand what constitutes rape. Should a woman be forced to urinate or vomit on her partner if she says "no" during sex and he does not pull out or stop? How about scream "NO" and head butt him and try to knee him in the nuts while screaming "NO"?

So they provide a list of what a woman should not do to prevent being raped. For LG, for example, it involved a bizarre trip to the railway station at 1am in the red light district to not being drunk when in public. Billvon twisted himself into such a knot, from it being a woman's responsibility to fight back against her rapist to his "IT IS UP TO THE WOMAN" argument.. What they fail to realise is just what kind of message this sends to rape victims. Especially those who did not fight back. Because by putting the onus on the woman to not be raped, they are ensuring that women suffer more and don't report it if they did not fight back, because they will then feel they have done something wrong.

They demand that women take responsibility to not be raped and then they have the gall to refer to it as liberating and empowering women.. Hmm.. yes.. I feel empowered already for having the expectation that it is my job to not be raped. Yet they back away from the fact that women are more likely to be raped in their own homes, by people they know. I mean sure, I can always ensure I maintain a full bladder to pee on the leg who anyone who dares try to sexually assault me or rape me, but I don't really see how that is empowering or liberating. I ask, should I always be prepared and vigilant when surrounded by males, that one of them might rape me and they tell me that is a ridiculous proposal.. And yet, open ended rape prevention arguments demand that women always be on the alert, from how she stands and walks, to how she holds her head up high to how she wears her hair (for example, ponytails make it easier to be grabbed and controlled by another person, same with long hair)..

Heaven forbid we just tell men and women that it is their responsibility to simply not rape.

 

[Balerion]

I think one of the glaring omissions by the rape prevention crowd is that they keep focusing more on stranger rape and have yet to provide how a woman is meant to beat her loved one to prevent herself from being raped.

This is exactly the point. Well, it's one of the points, anyway; prevention advocates have, in their minds, made rape out to be something that occurs between strangers. LG went so far as to endorse the advice of a website that framed rape as being what happens to women who stand their ground against people who publicly humiliate them. To him, and people like him, this is how rape happens. To the rest of the world, it is merely a statistically insignificant theoretical possibility.

So they provide a list of what a woman should not do to prevent being raped. For LG, for example, it involved a bizarre trip to the railway station at 1am in the red light district to not being drunk when in public. Billvon twisted himself into such a knot, from it being a woman's responsibility to fight back against her rapist to his "IT IS UP TO THE WOMAN" argument.. What they fail to realise is just what kind of message this sends to rape victims. Especially those who did not fight back. Because by putting the onus on the woman to not be raped, they are ensuring that women suffer more and don't report it if they did not fight back, because they will then feel they have done something wrong.

This is another excellent point that has yet to be addressed by the prevention advocates. Again, I have to wonder if any of them have considered the effect their advocacy has on actual rape victims. Something tells me they haven't. At least not all of them; I feel like LG and wynn know damn well what they're implying.

They demand that women take responsibility to not be raped and then they have the gall to refer to it as liberating and empowering women.. Hmm.. yes.. I feel empowered already for having the expectation that it is my job to not be raped. Yet they back away from the fact that women are more likely to be raped in their own homes, by people they know. I mean sure, I can always ensure I maintain a full bladder to pee on the leg who anyone who dares try to sexually assault me or rape me, but I don't really see how that is empowering or liberating. I ask, should I always be prepared and vigilant when surrounded by males, that one of them might rape me and they tell me that is a ridiculous proposal.. And yet, open ended rape prevention arguments demand that women always be on the alert, from how she stands and walks, to how she holds her head up high to how she wears her hair (for example, ponytails make it easier to be grabbed and controlled by another person, same with long hair)..

There you have it. I mean, there's really nothing here beyond the ken of any of the prevention advocates in this thread, yet, for whatever reason, none of them see it.

Heaven forbid we just tell men and women that it is their responsibility to simply not rape.

This is the part where I'd like to say I don't understand why it's only rape prevention advocacy that pretends there's nothing to be done about the perpetrator...but, sadly, I understand perfectly.

 

[Tiassa]

This and ... er ... um ... yeah

Easy. She does not have to do anything. (There are, of course, idiots out there who will blame the rape on her for wearing short skirts, just as there are idiots who will claim she's "living in fear" if she wears a long one.)

As impolite as I am aware it is, I would ask you to take a moment away from your tilting with windmills in order to please apply the above-quoted concept to examples cited in the topic post, such as the rape and murder of Jill Meagher and the University of North Carolina episode.

And to specify the application:

Q: Just how much does a woman have to do before society will stop blaming her for being raped?

A: Easy. She does not have to do anything. (There are, of course, idiots out there who will blame the rape on her for wearing short skirts, just as there are idiots who will claim she's "living in fear" if she wears a long one.)​

Very well. Please apply that concept practically, so that we who are initially dubious of such propositions can understand the constructive function you are describing.

• • •​

I'm beginning to think some of the prevention advocates here simply haven't given it much thought.

In 1991, Robert R. McCammon published Boy's Life. The Second Golden Age of Horror, which began with Stephen King in 1976, came to an immediate end. Stephen King dropped the curtain on Castle Rock. Clive Barker spun into young adult literature, oil painting, and generally got weirder and more obscure. The change was obvious and immediate; the scary story became the hidden psychopath in the lover and husband. The monsters from within became extraterrestrial species. One guy put down one book that was so goddamn good that the entire genre gave over. It was a moment of both delight and sorrow. To the one, there was this story, this amazing story. To the other, fifteen years into a literary cycle there came that story that everybody knew nobody could beat. It was over. We would not expect to see another story like this for twenty or maybe even fifty years.

No, really, it was incredible. Boom, done. It was as if every major writer in the genre said, "Fuck, I can't top this. Time to change direction."

There is, in truth, nothing I can add to your post. Naturally, I'm always happy to spin tangents. But it also brings us full circle in a certain way:

"I'm beginning to think some of the prevention advocates here simply haven't given it much thought."​

That is exactly the problem. And your analysis of this latest twist is one of the finest distillations of an issue I have ever seen at Sciforums.

There are two problems that occurred to me today about the way I have been pursuing this issue. Your post reminds me specifically of one.

There are reasons they haven't given these things enough thought. I already know this, and it's quite clear that these people cannot be shocked or rhetorically bludgeoned into giving it more thought. And perhaps they might be horrified by the suggestion, but it's not about how much thought they give it in terms of time, but, rather, how broad a spectrum of ideas they allow consideration. And, clearly, continuing to focus on these neurotic outcomes isn't helping the situation.

Which, in turn, brings me to the second problem. I mean, let's be honest. It's seven hundred posts into the discussion, and they are clearly immovable on whatever they think their point is.

​

I happened to notice this poster, from a 2011 Refuse to Abuse campaign, hanging at Safeco Field today.

Somewhere along the way today, I started wondering why it's seven hundred posts into this discussion and we're still stuck on this dumb-assed issue. By engaging these ideas, we're accomplishing what they're after.

That is to say, clearly they don't want to talk about real solutions. Doesn't mean the rest of us can't.

That poster. Your crucifixion nail analysis. Fucking duh.

Rape is perhaps the purest distillation of ideas that dehumanizes a person. In the context of women in first-world societies, it is the most powerful expression of a woman's inhumanity. There is a reason that almost the entire War of the Sexes leads back to this battlefield.

That poster. That's a good start.

Our prevention advocate neighbors are not thinking it through. They are not about to start thinking it through. Very well. How I've let myself get seven hundred posts into this discussion without simply changing the course of the discussion myself is a mystery I cannot presently, and likely will never, answer.

"You can lead a horse to water, but faith is another matter."

—The Black Crowes​

So I'll start with that poster. It might seem a small thing, but professional sports are rife with domestic violence, and baseball sometimes seems the banner corps for male athletes beating on their wives. In January I noted that former Seattle Mariner Milton Bradley faces thirteen years in prison for allegedly threatening and attacking his wife. Of course, I also noted Fr. Piero Corsi, who also made an appearance in the topic post for this thread. He's the Italian priest whose Christmas message to the parish attacked women for forcing men to physically and sexually abuse them.

And as I write this it strikes me that there is direct action taking place in Egypt, India, and Israel, where men and women are banding together to challenge societal misogyny that is so bad there are mass confrontations in the streets.

And whether it's the women of Egypt and India saying they will not be told men's crimes against them are their fault, or the women of Israel simply having the right to pray, many of the same dehumanizing ideas as we see there are present in the United States, England, Australia, Canada, and other alleged bastions of civilization. This is a fundamental human issue of existential implication.

And sure, it only took seven hundred posts before I figured out that what I should be doing is making them force their way into a genuinely productive discussion. If they really want to play this game, well, let's make them work to fly their colors; see how dedicated they really are to this dysfunction.

Of all the nails you drove with that post, I consider this the most important: It is time to move onto a productive discussion.

There is no reason to keep indulging them.

Of course, where do we go, now? Aye-aye-aye-aye-aye-aye-aye-aye-where do we go now?

Oh, right. Like that poster. I'm sure I can come up with more than cheerleading for a 2011 Refuse to Abuse campaign.

Must ... readjust ... sensors.

 

[wynn]

Heaven forbid we just tell men and women that it is their responsibility to simply not rape.

Yeah, heaven forbid. You being a prime example.

 

[James R]

Ten rape prevention tips
Source

1. Don’t put drugs in a woman's drink in order to control her behaviour.

2. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.

3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.

4. If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don’t rape her.

5. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.

6. Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.

7. Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

8. Use the Buddy System! If you think you might be unable to stop yourself from raping somebody, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.

9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.

10. Don’t forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her.​

 

[arauca]

Sexual Assault, a concern in the U.S. that is not taken seriously. 50058.jpeg


U.S. , A country that claims to defend human rights and even criticizes others in this regard, not only has failed to control violence, but it has spread and deepened, both in society and in the U.S. Army, which contradicts international principles and rules.

The first article of the declaration on ending violence against women defines the following:

"For the purposes of this Declaration, the term 'violence against women' means any act of violence based on gender, or is likely to result in harm, physical, sexual or suffering to women, including threats of such acts, coercion or arbitrary deprivation of liberty, whether occurring in public or in private life."

The issue of sexual assault in the U.S. keeps repeating. A new report has revealed an increase of about 35% of sexual assault cases in the military. The U.S. Defense Department reported that last year there were 26,000 cases of sexual crimes in the United States Armed Forces. Report data accounts for almost 70 attacks a day, and also notes that one in five female soldiers in the U.S. has been the victim of unwanted sexual contact by their colleagues.

The frequent cases of gender rape in the USA have jeopardized the credibility of one of the most powerful armies in the world. Sexual assault is not at all a new thing among the soldiers who are serving in the U.S. Armed Forces, as it has become routine and even the U.S. Defense Department publishes an annual report.

According to the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, sexual assault against women in the U.S. military is twice of what happens in society.

In the most recent case, a U.S. official in charge of the prevention of sexual crimes in the military ranks committed that crime that should be prevented

 

[Bells]

Yeah, heaven forbid. You being a prime example.

Prime example of what, Wynn?

Prime example of teaching my son's about respecting other people and listening and respecting a person's boundaries and that if someone says no, then they should not push (in their case, it starts with teaching them that if someone says no or stop, then they listen and stop and not keep pushing and to respect that 'no', whatever the source may be)?

Or does that offend your delicate sensibilities as well?

 

[billvon]

Here are a few more evil rape prevention advocates, this time from India:

====================================
Women in India's 'rape capital' speak out

Mansi Thapliyal / Reuters

By Jon Sweeney, NBC News

Since the death of a medical student who was gang raped on a bus in New Delhi the issue of women's security has been under the spotlight as never before in India. Mansi Thapliyal, a female Indian photographer working for Reuters, interviewed a variety of women in New Delhi to find out how they feel about their safety since the rape. . . .

Deepshikha Bharadwaj, 24, who works for an advertising agency, has posted the notice that reads, 'Sorry I am not staying late now,' on her desk and said she wanted to send a message to her colleagues that she is not going to work late in the office anymore.

Sweety, 22,a student, travels four hours every day from her village to the city to learn karate and taekwondo. She said, "boys in my village are scared to tease me after I beat up one boy who was passing lewd comments on me."

Simrat, 24, who works for a non-profit arts organization, said, “I made the decision to use public transport as my primary way of moving through the city because I really believe that it is my right to be able to use public space, just as much as it is of any man."

Chandani, 22, who works as a cab driver for a social enterprise which claims to provide safe and secure cab services for women driven by women, said demand for their cabs has increased. "I am doing a very unconventional job for women,” she said. “Given that I do night shifts, I carry pepper spray bottle and I'm trained in self-defense. Initially I faced a lot of problems but driving cabs at night has helped me to overcome my fears.”
============================

Rape submission advocates - attack!

 

[Bells]

Here are a few more evil rape prevention advocates, this time from India:

====================================
Women in India's 'rape capital' speak out

Mansi Thapliyal / Reuters

By Jon Sweeney, NBC News

Since the death of a medical student who was gang raped on a bus in New Delhi the issue of women's security has been under the spotlight as never before in India. Mansi Thapliyal, a female Indian photographer working for Reuters, interviewed a variety of women in New Delhi to find out how they feel about their safety since the rape. . . .

Deepshikha Bharadwaj, 24, who works for an advertising agency, has posted the notice that reads, 'Sorry I am not staying late now,' on her desk and said she wanted to send a message to her colleagues that she is not going to work late in the office anymore.

Sweety, 22,a student, travels four hours every day from her village to the city to learn karate and taekwondo. She said, "boys in my village are scared to tease me after I beat up one boy who was passing lewd comments on me."

Simrat, 24, who works for a non-profit arts organization, said, “I made the decision to use public transport as my primary way of moving through the city because I really believe that it is my right to be able to use public space, just as much as it is of any man."

Chandani, 22, who works as a cab driver for a social enterprise which claims to provide safe and secure cab services for women driven by women, said demand for their cabs has increased. "I am doing a very unconventional job for women,” she said. “Given that I do night shifts, I carry pepper spray bottle and I'm trained in self-defense. Initially I faced a lot of problems but driving cabs at night has helped me to overcome my fears.”
============================

Rape submission advocates - attack!

You still don't get it, do you?

No one is going to argue that learning self defense is a bad thing.

The problem lies in the fact that your rape prevention ideology has no limits. What that means is that the focus will always be on women to not be raped, instead of demanding that men not rape. You also fail to account for the fact that the majority of rapes are committed by men the women know, and are most probably intimate with. So when you say it is a woman's responsibility to do what she can to not be raped, if you factor in the fact that the majority know their rapists, you are thus demanding that women not be raped by men they know, by taking responsibility for their actions around the men they know. Hence why I ask and no one has been able to respond - at what point can a woman not expect to be raped? And you still just don't get it.

You bring up India as an example. The recent spate of rapes on women and children in India has seen a growing movement not towards women's responsibility to not be raped, but towards men not raping. The irony of your pushing India in your rape prevention ideology cannot be lost on you, surely? Because in India, the onus had followed along the lines of your rape prevention ideology, which placed the responsibility to not be raped on the woman. But the tide is changing and people now expect men to not rape. Because it is the rape prevention ideology which leads to questioning why that student was on that bus at night with her boyfriend, and why the little girl was playing outside of her home when she was kidnapped and then raped for days, until she subsequently died.

As long as society demands that women take responsibility to prevent being raped, or even suggests it, then you will have a society where a woman's actions prior, during and after being raped being called into question and this is why so few rapists ever set foot in jail.

Your words and your ideology have repercussions and I have seen it first hand. India has seen it and lived it and now they are demanding that rape prevention is not in the woman's domain but in the domain of the rapist. So that women like Deepshikha Bharadwaj can stay working late if she has to instead of being forced by a patriarchal society, that condones rape and places the responsibility to not be raped on women, to leave work early for rape prevention.

 

[billvon]

The problem lies in the fact that your rape prevention ideology has no limits. What that means is that the focus will always be on women to not be raped, instead of demanding that men not rape.

No, my approach is actually both.

Hence why I ask and no one has been able to respond - at what point can a woman not expect to be raped?

Never. And that's what YOU don't get. You are never 100% safe in any aspect of your life. You could be raped tomorrow. You could be killed by a drunk driver. You could die of a heart attack. There is no such thing as perfect safety. You can try to reduce the odds of those things happening, of course. I advocate that people do try to reduce the odds of those things happening. How much you do to avoid them is up to you.

The recent spate of rapes on women and children in India has seen a growing movement not towards women's responsibility to not be raped, but towards men not raping.

Good! Combine that with people like Sweety and Chandani and we will make real progress. (Provided you don't manage to stop them, of course.)


Here is today's evil rape prevention advocate:
================
How Men Can Stop Rape
(from the website "Men can Stop Rape")

Don't ever have sex with anyone against his or her will! No matter what. Although statistics show most men never rape, the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. Make a promise to yourself to be a different kind of man -- one who values equality and whose strength is not used for hurting. Information about consent.

Speak up. You will probably never see a rape in progress, but you will see and hear attitudes and behaviors that degrade women and promote rape. When your best friend tells a joke about rape, say you don't find it funny. When you read an article that blames a rape survivor for being assaulted, write a letter to the editor. When laws are proposed that limit women's rights, let politicians know that you won't support them. Do anything but remain silent.

Be aware of language. Words are very powerful, especially when spoken by people with power over others. We live in a society in which words are often used to put women down, where calling a girl or woman a "bitch," "freak," "whore," "baby," or "dog" is common. Such language sends a message that females are less than fully human. When we see women as inferior, it becomes easier to treat them with less respect, disregard their rights, and ignore their well-being.

Support survivors of rape. By learning to sensitively support survivors in their lives, men can help both women and other men feel safer to speak out about being raped and let the world know how serious a problem rape is.

Organize. Form your own organization of men focused on stopping sexual violence. Men's anti-rape groups are becoming more and more common around the country, especially on college campuses. If you have the time and the drive, it is a wonderful way to make a difference in your community.

Work against other oppressions. Rape feeds off many other forms of prejudice -- including racism, homophobia, and religious discrimination. By speaking out against any beliefs and behaviors, including rape, that promote one group of people as superior to another and deny other groups their full humanity, you support everyone's equality.
================================

 

[wynn]

Prime example of what, Wynn?

Prime example of teaching my son's about respecting other people and listening and respecting a person's boundaries and that if someone says no, then they should not push (in their case, it starts with teaching them that if someone says no or stop, then they listen and stop and not keep pushing and to respect that 'no', whatever the source may be)?

Or does that offend your delicate sensibilities as well?

You are a prime example of someone who doesn't care when other people say No.

 

[Bells]

No, my approach is actually both.



Never. And that's what YOU don't get. You are never 100% safe in any aspect of your life. You could be raped tomorrow. You could be killed by a drunk driver. You could die of a heart attack. There is no such thing as perfect safety. You can try to reduce the odds of those things happening, of course. I advocate that people do try to reduce the odds of those things happening. How much you do to avoid them is up to you.




Good! Combine that with people like Sweety and Chandani and we will make real progress. (Provided you don't manage to stop them, of course.)


Here is today's evil rape prevention advocate:
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How Men Can Stop Rape
(from the website "Men can Stop Rape")

Don't ever have sex with anyone against his or her will! No matter what. Although statistics show most men never rape, the overwhelming majority of rapists are male. Make a promise to yourself to be a different kind of man -- one who values equality and whose strength is not used for hurting. Information about consent.

Speak up. You will probably never see a rape in progress, but you will see and hear attitudes and behaviors that degrade women and promote rape. When your best friend tells a joke about rape, say you don't find it funny. When you read an article that blames a rape survivor for being assaulted, write a letter to the editor. When laws are proposed that limit women's rights, let politicians know that you won't support them. Do anything but remain silent.

Be aware of language. Words are very powerful, especially when spoken by people with power over others. We live in a society in which words are often used to put women down, where calling a girl or woman a "bitch," "freak," "whore," "baby," or "dog" is common. Such language sends a message that females are less than fully human. When we see women as inferior, it becomes easier to treat them with less respect, disregard their rights, and ignore their well-being.

Support survivors of rape. By learning to sensitively support survivors in their lives, men can help both women and other men feel safer to speak out about being raped and let the world know how serious a problem rape is.

Organize. Form your own organization of men focused on stopping sexual violence. Men's anti-rape groups are becoming more and more common around the country, especially on college campuses. If you have the time and the drive, it is a wonderful way to make a difference in your community.

Work against other oppressions. Rape feeds off many other forms of prejudice -- including racism, homophobia, and religious discrimination. By speaking out against any beliefs and behaviors, including rape, that promote one group of people as superior to another and deny other groups their full humanity, you support everyone's equality.
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Which is why you still don't get it..

Told your intimate partner that it is her responsibility to not be raped by you and any man she knows yet? How about all the other women in your family and circle of friends?

---

You are a prime example of someone who doesn't care when other people say No.

Wynn, you are infamous on this site for accusing a child abuse survivor of being responsible and sharing the blame for being sexually abused and raped when she was 3 years of age. You are also known for commenting on my sex life with my ex husband as being grounds for our separation, you have also spent the better part of this thread asking me if I want to be raped or prefer to be raped. Not to mention whine about the fact that (normal) people have sex outside of procreation and happen to enjoy it.

To say that you have no social boundaries or understanding of boundaries would be an understatement.

So you will excuse me if I take this latest whine from you as being yet another giant hint of your own personal and mental issues.

 

[lightgigantic]

Ten rape prevention tips
Source

1. Don’t put drugs in a woman's drink in order to control her behaviour.

2. When you see a woman walking by herself, leave her alone.

3. If you pull over to help a woman whose car has broken down, remember not to rape her.

4. If you are in an elevator and a woman gets in, don’t rape her.

5. When you encounter a woman who is asleep, the safest course of action is to not rape her.

6. Never creep into a woman’s home through an unlocked door or window, or spring out at her from between parked cars, or rape her.

7. Remember, people go to the laundry room to do their laundry. Do not attempt to molest someone who is alone in a laundry room.

8. Use the Buddy System! If you think you might be unable to stop yourself from raping somebody, ask a trusted friend to accompany you at all times.

9. Carry a rape whistle. If you find that you are about to rape someone, blow the whistle until someone comes to stop you.

10. Don’t forget: Honesty is the best policy. When asking a woman out on a date, don’t pretend that you are interested in her as a person; tell her straight up that you expect to be raping her later. If you don’t communicate your intentions, the woman may take it as a sign that you do not plan to rape her.​

notice how none of these prevention tips are inhibited to even the slightest degree by potential victims also adopting some form of prevention?

When you add this consideration to the problems the article has in framing the learning environment for its target audience, its easy to understand that, while there can be prevention strategies for potential rapists and potential rape victims, prevention for rape victims seems to draw an overwhelmingly stronger participation rate.

 

[billvon]

Told your intimate partner that it is her responsibility to not be raped by you and any man she knows yet?

Nope! Try again.

How about all the other women in your family and circle of friends?

Nope. But keep guessing. I enjoy your ever more fantastic strawmen.

 

[billvon]

A: Easy. She does not have to do anything. (There are, of course, idiots out there who will blame the rape on her for wearing short skirts, just as there are idiots who will claim she's "living in fear" if she wears a long one.)[/font][/indent]

Very well. Please apply that concept practically, so that we who are initially dubious of such propositions can understand the constructive function you are describing.

The rapist is always at fault for the rape.

Practical example:

A woman takes reasonable precautions against being raped - walks home with a friend when she can, carries a cellphone, doesn't drink too much, whatever she chooses to do. She gets raped anyway. Result - it is the rapist's fault.

I know that's going to be too complex for you to work out so I will simplify it:

A rapist rapes a woman. It is the rapist's fault. Period.

 

[billvon]

Then perhaps you can explain to me why you are demanding that women take "responsibility" to prevent being raped?

They take responsibility for everything they do in their lives.

Are you a professional victim? It boggles the mind that you cannot understand this simple concept, but I have known some professional victims who make a career out of not taking responsibility for anything they do. Burn from hot coffee? It was the fault of the restaurant!

Date rape? She tempted me; it wasn't my fault! What was I supposed to do?

Drunk driving death? The car didn't keep me from hitting that guy! Other cars have radar systems that can hit the brakes; if my car couldn't stop in time BLAME THE CAR!

Such people generally live pretty miserable lives, since they see nothing they can do to help themselves. But if you do fall into that category I can see how it would be hard to understand the concept of personal responsibility.

Because in every single argument put forward by you people, it has been the responsibility of the woman to not be raped. And if she somehow does not do what she can to prevent her rape, what then? What if she does submit to it?

If she does? I imagine you (and the other rape submission advocates) would be very happy. She didn't fight back, and thus did not make other people feel bad about not fighting back. And by not preventing it she is not an evil rape prevention advocate.

Personally I would be saddened that a woman was raped, and would have preferred that it could have been prevented. I'm funny that way.

How you prevent men from raping?

See my post above on how men can prevent rape. But again, that's all that evil prevention stuff; I know how you hate that.

Here is today's evil rape prevention advocate:
=====================================
Moses Lake woman defends herself from rapist

Posted: Thursday, December 6, 2012 5:57 pm | Updated: 10:30 pm, Mon Dec 10, 2012.

MOSES LAKE – A 22-year-old woman managed to fight off an attacker early this morning who allegedly broke into her Moses Lake home and attempted to rape her while wielding a knife.

According to Sheriff’s Chief Deputy Ken Jones, the attack happened at about 5 a.m. today in the 1200 block of Vandenburg Loop in north Moses Lake.

The victim told deputies she was doing homework when the man reportedly entered her residence through a back window that was broken and not able to be secured. The suspect was reportedly armed with a six inch, curved knife and was wearing all black with a dark colored bandana covering most of his face.

The woman fought with the attacker for about five minutes before managing to kick the knife out of his hand. The suspect reportedly punched the victim in the face several times before fleeing the residence.
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