Rape and the "Civilized" World

[billvon]

Quite the contrary.

Both problems do NOT need fixing? Rape isn't something we should try to prevent through law, long prison terms and good enforcement? A fascinating statement.

The problem faced by you and your merry band of rape prevention sycophants is that women refuse to see themselves as helpless victims

WHAT? You are saying they can DO SOMETHING about their own protection? Sounds like you're agreeing with me. Progress!

I would become a victim if I altered my life completely just in case a man I know or do not know might decide to rape me for reasons known only to him. It is not my responsibility to live my life in fear and hyper vigilance because of what another person may or may not do at any given time.

Correct. You have no responsibility to learn to defend yourself from rape. You do, however, have the CHOICE to do that. Who should make that choice? You.

You want to combat rape? Teach your son's and daughters,

Again, you are suggesting that we tell our daughters that there is something they can do about rape? You can even, perhaps, PREVENT it through education of women? Also excellent!

from the moment they can understand, that not respecting others is not to be tolerated and that learning 'no means no' and that rape and treating women like shit is not acceptable and tolerated.

Agreed. Sounds like you are coming around. (Although I do have to say that "rape and treating women like shit" is like saying "murder and being an asshole." They're not even close and shouldn't be paired.)

 

[lightgigantic]

When however a woman behaves, whether she curbs her behaviour or not, will have no bearing or impact on whether she is raped or not.

Incorrect.

Individuals who have a professional interest in dealing with this problem disagree.

 

[Tiassa]

Date With Density

You still don't get it.

You say Its logical to work with "men" as a risk category.

No one else does.
Not me.
Not any professional.
Not any website I have linked (even though you say they do, but consistently fail to offer a reference)

Its your idea.

This is the problem:

(1) Prevention advocates refuse to establish an outer boundary for their theory.

(2) Prevention advocates identify against the effects of their open-ended theory.

(3) Prevention advocates, when pressed on this point, refuse to establish an outer boundary for their theory.​

If the implications of this problem are too complex for you to comprehend, then perhaps you should reconsider your approach.

Stop with the exclusion-identification; try something affirmative.

What is the outer boundary?

Thus, the answer to your question—

IOW why can't you find a professional who works with the category of "man" as a risk category?

—is that any qualified psycholigist will tell you that such an outlook is problematic, and any behavioral theory that leaves such an implication in effect is dangerous.

 

[Bells]

Both problems do NOT need fixing? Rape isn't something we should try to prevent through law, long prison terms and good enforcement? A fascinating statement.

That you read that that way and took it that much out of context says quite a bit about you.

WHAT? You are saying they can DO SOMETHING about their own protection? Sounds like you're agreeing with me. Progress!

Wow.. really..?

Correct. You have no responsibility to learn to defend yourself from rape. You do, however, have the CHOICE to do that. Who should make that choice? You.

Now tell me, when can a woman ever expect to not be raped? And you have switched to choice now? What? Can't explain the "responsibility" argument that you had originally started out with? How liberating of you to give women the choice.

How can a wife, defend herself from her husband who rolls over and she says no at the last minute, and he rapes her anyway? Kick him in the groin? Punch him in the face?

Tell me, have you told your wife to take self defense courses or encouraged her to and done so with the specific intent of reminding her that it is her "choice" to stop any man in her life from raping her, including you?

Again, you are suggesting that we tell our daughters that there is something they can do about rape? You can even, perhaps, PREVENT it through education of women? Also excellent!

Actually no. I would tell my daughter to not rape and that rape is never acceptable and if someone says no, they must stop immediately.

I would never ever tell my daughter that it is her role in life and her "choice" to "prevent" being raped.

Agreed. Sounds like you are coming around. (Although I do have to say that "rape and treating women like shit" is like saying "murder and being an asshole." They're not even close and shouldn't be paired.)

Trying to twist what I saw to conform to your misogynistic beliefs isn't working. Just saying.

---

Incorrect.

Individuals who have a professional interest in dealing with this problem disagree.

Such as don't talk back to a man?

Frankly, the links you have provided about how a woman should behave to prevent or avoid rape read like 'Misogynists R Us'.

But hey, I understand how you feel threatened enough by women to demand they behave a certain way under the guise of so that they aren't raped.

 

[lightgigantic]

Such as don't talk back to a man?

at the expense of jeopardising one's escape, sure.

Another one is refraining from HED (heavy episodic drinking)

plenty more there

Frankly, the links you have provided about how a woman should behave to prevent or avoid rape read like 'Misogynists R Us'.

sorry to hear that you feel oppressed by the news that getting shit-faced in public is not a wise decision ....

:shrug:

 

[wynn]

I have been following this thread for a few days now and I have pondered both sides of this debate. Rape is the rapists fault(man) so let man fix it! Men not women need to got to rape seminars, how to prevent yourself from raping classes, you do not have to rape to feel you have power and are still in control classes, her vagina is not your watering hole classes, she is drunk so she wants me classes, she is wearing that bikini because she wants some classes, boy that baby in that crib sure does turn me on classes and so on and so forth.....

And in the meantime,
do you think that the best women can do is just behave as if there are no dangers anywhere, and thus endure the occasional rape?

 

[wynn]

I can't think of anyone who doesn't live in fear ...

Oh well. Feel the fear and do it anyway is the mantra.

Feel the fear - and get drunk anyway!
Feel the fear - and flirt what that person anyway!
Feel the fear - and do whatever strikes your fancy anyway!


Much of the self-help movement is aimed toward the eliminationof fear; fear tends to be seen as something bad, as something oppressive, something to be done away with, an extra that should not be there, a mere obstacle.
And not perhaps as a hint that one ought to rethink what one is about to do.

 

[wynn]

You do realise that this is what you promote, don't you?

No, you do.

It's the idea you are promoting that in order to be normal, a person must have sex, even if they don't want to have children. That puts people at the mercy of other people.

What is it like to be submissive Wynn?

What is it like to argue with a runaway train?

When however a woman behaves, whether she curbs her behaviour or not, will have no bearing or impact on whether she is raped or not.

Martyrs tell themselves, and others, that.

So you expect and demand that women live in fear and terror of rape, and live their lives surrounded by this fear with the looming questions about whether they prefer to be raped if they do not live to this misogynistic ideal of yours. In other words, if they don't live like you and be like you, then obviously, they were asking for it.

Only in your twisted mind.

I have never once told you what to do.

Says she who has just spent several pages asking a woman if she would rather be raped than to refuse to live life in fear of every man in her surroundings.. Says she who even went so far as to ask if I preferred or wanted to be raped because I choose to be sexually active.

You seem to think that your actions should have the consequences that you think they should have - regardless of reality.
There's a term for that kind of thinking.

Quite the contrary.

The problem faced by you and your merry band of rape prevention sycophants is that women refuse to see themselves as helpless victims who need to curb their behaviour and live a certain way and to take special classes to "prevent" themselves from being raped by the men in their families, work or off the street. It is because we refuse to bow down and adhere to how and what men think we should be doing to stop ourselves from being raped by their fellow men, that you view us as "helpless victims".

I would become a victim if I altered my life completely just in case a man I know or do not know might decide to rape me for reasons known only to him. It is not my responsibility to live my life in fear and hyper vigilance because of what another person may or may not do at any given time. It is not for me to not be raped but for others to not rape.

If you think that behaving in line with what Cosmo and similar media teach is a guarantee for a happy, liberated, superior life ...
Well, then that's what you think. You reap what you sow.

Once people start understanding that the rape problem lies solely with the rapist, then we might see a drop in numbers. While rape prevention ideology continues, then the expectation will be that it is up to the woman to not be raped, instead of the man to not rape.

You want to combat rape?

Teach your son's and daughters, from the moment they can understand, that not respecting others is not to be tolerated and that learning 'no means no' and that rape and treating women like shit is not acceptable and tolerated.

And in the meantime,
do you think that the best women can do is just behave as if there are no dangers anywhere, and thus endure the occasional rape?

 

[lightgigantic]

Listening to your Inner Tabloid

This is the problem:

(1) Prevention advocates refuse to establish an outer boundary for their theory.​

I guess that topic involves the subject of "risk assessment",
the fact that you can't even bring yourself to address this term shows where you are at the moment
:shrug:

(2) Prevention advocates identify against the effects of their open-ended theory.

ditto above

(3) Prevention advocates, when pressed on this point, refuse to establish an outer boundary for their theory.

ditto above

If the implications of this problem are too complex for you to comprehend, then perhaps you should reconsider your approach.

risk assessment is not a complex subject

Stop with the exclusion-identification; try something affirmative.

What is the outer boundary?

Thus, the answer to your question—

You make it difficult for yourself when you ask questions that you are not interested in being answered.
:shrug:

—is that any qualified psycholigist will tell you that such an outlook is problematic, and any behavioral theory that leaves such an implication in effect is dangerous.

Which then begs the question why qualified psychologists - on top of any other professional engaged in the field - don't share your views?

:shrug:

 

[wynn]

Teach your son's and daughters, from the moment they can understand, that not respecting others is not to be tolerated and that learning 'no means no' and that rape and treating women like shit is not acceptable and tolerated.

You, of all people, should learn that first.

 

[wynn]

No one can make a discussion more utterly, uselessly, pointlessly, unbelievably personal than Wynn. When she can't disprove the message she will invariably attack the messenger.

Can you be any more blind and biased??

Bells's point is well made. Even in its most enlightened corners, Western civilization is still a phallocracy. In this country, a woman would have to set up a self-sufficient survivalist hideout in the remotest corner of Arizona, in the process forgoing 99% of the benefits of civilization, in order not to have to ask herself some version of the question "How are the men who run things going to feel about what I'm doing now?" at least once a day.

I'm not ashamed to be male because I try to improve women's lives whenever I have a chance, from the parlor to the office to the street to the voting booth. But some of my fellow men make me so angry that I can understand how hard it is not to become a typical male and solve a problem with violence. It's probably only my sense of irony that rescues me.

And yet you are a promoter of phallocracy yourself, given your ideas of sexuality.

 

[Balerion]

You still don't get it...

You make it difficult for yourself when you ask questions that you are not interested in being answered.
:shrug:

LG once again fails to answer direct questions...

 

[lightgigantic]

LG once again fails to answer direct questions...

will the irony never end?
:shrug:

 

[wynn]

risk assessment is not a complex subject

It is, when one's notions of wellbeing overlap with what someone else deems high risk factors.

 

[Bells]

at the expense of jeopardising one's escape, sure.

Another one is refraining from HED (heavy episodic drinking)

plenty more there


sorry to hear that you feel oppressed by the news that getting shit-faced in public is not a wise decision ....

:shrug:

Wow.. HED.. You haven't put much thought into women and drinking, have you?

Again, you are more likely to be raped by your intimate partner or spouse in your own home. Unless of course you are suggesting that women should simply never get drunk around any man at home or otherwise?

---

No, you do.

It's the idea you are promoting that in order to be normal, a person must have sex, even if they don't want to have children. That puts people at the mercy of other people.

Wow..

No Wynn. I am promoting the thought that you are perfectly normal if you want to have sex, even if it is not for having children.

But ermm.. thanks for sharing how you feel about sex.

What is it like to argue with a runaway train?

Is that how you view yourself?

Martyrs tell themselves, and others, that.

Again, is that how you view women who see themselves as being free and equal?

Interesting..

Only in your twisted mind.

I have never once told you what to do.

Well obviously, to you, my mind is twisted. I think having sex and enjoying sex is normal.. I also believe that having sex without the intent of children is also normal and enjoyable. So yes, I guess to you, I am twisted.

But I am not selling having sex here. I am saying that women should not be deemed responsible for stopping rape. Considering how many times you have asked me if I would rather be raped.. Frankly, I think your grasping at straws here and trying to sink that little bit lower to sell yourself to those whose attention you seek.

You seem to think that your actions should have the consequences that you think they should have - regardless of reality.
There's a term for that kind of thinking.

No. I believe that stopping rape starts and ends with a rapist and that I should not be forced by prudish twats to live my life a certain way to fit into their ideal and try to sell it as "rape prevention". Unlike you, I don't get off on being controlled.

But I can see how you could believe otherwise..

If you think that behaving in line with what Cosmo and similar media teach is a guarantee for a happy, liberated, superior life ...
Well, then that's what you think. You reap what you sow.

Cosmo?

No. You see Wynn, I was taught by my parents that I was equal and free and should never change myself to fit the whims of others or to fit into how they wished to view me. I was never taught to be meek and accepting of everything. I suppose you and I had different upbringing.

I don't even know what "Cosmo" is, let alone having read it. Because I don't need the media to tell me how to be free. If I did, then I would buy into the rape prevention psyche that you are obviously sold on.. that it is up to you to not be raped.. Which again, would only apply to someone who relied on others for their self worth and for expectations on how they should behave.

And in the meantime,
do you think that the best women can do is just behave as if there are no dangers anywhere, and thus endure the occasional rape?

Do you think it would be better for women to live like you?

I think women should be free to do whatever the hell they wish to do and should never be told that it is up to them to not be raped. But I get how you would be against that.

 

[wynn]

And in the meantime,
do you think that the best women can do is just behave as if there are no dangers anywhere, and thus endure the occasional rape?

Do you think it would be better for women to live like you?

I think women should be free to do whatever the hell they wish to do and should never be told that it is up to them to not be raped. But I get how you would be against that.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[wynn]

I think having sex and enjoying sex is normal.. I also believe that having sex without the intent of children is also normal and enjoyable.

Rapists agree with you on that ...

Cosmo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmopolitan_(magazine)

No. You see Wynn, I was taught by my parents that I was equal and free and should never change myself to fit the whims of others or to fit into how they wished to view me.

And in the name of this freedom and equality, you are willing to risk being raped?

I think women should be free to do whatever the hell they wish to do and should never be told that it is up to them to not be raped. But I get how you would be against that.

I have already told you more than once: Suit yourself.
So stop making stuff up about me.


:shrug: :shrug:

 

[lightgigantic]

Wow.. HED.. You haven't put much thought into women and drinking, have you?

Alcohol Consumption and Women's Vulnerability to Sexual Victimization: Can Reducing Women's Drinking Prevent Rape?

:shrug:

Again, you are more likely to be raped by your intimate partner or spouse in your own home.

and yet again, talking about challenging scenarios to establish a preventative strategy in no way impedes its effect in less challenging scenarios ... even if they are more common

:shrug:

Unless of course you are suggesting that women should simply never get drunk around any man at home or otherwise?

In that scenario it would probably be more effective not to jeopardize the opportunity to escape in favor of sticking around to try and "win" the fight.

Of course if one is shit-faced, that isn't going to help matters any either ...

:shrug:

 

[theDoctor]

I think that some of the problem actually lies int the "family Unit", i fyou look at the western view of what a household should be like with Father in charge of every one in the house, then it becomes clear that you are already raising children in a social domination paradigm and that men are to be of a higher status than women are.

From an anthropological perspective what we call a family in the western world is far from the norm of human history. Humans have spent about 99% of their evolutionary time as egalitarians where not only was there no social rank but there was no concept of a child belonging to any one particular parent, they were simply raised by the group. Needless to say when raised in a culture like this it is hard to imagine any rape going on where the value system was equality and fairness, and not social rank and judgement.

Which brings me to the most important point, people are lied to consistently about what our history is as human beings, we are told over and over again by the media that early humans lived primarily alone and would kidnap and rape women to produce children, Why, because that is the story that explains peoples behaviour without requiring that anyone do anything about it other than punish people.

 

[Bells]

Rapists agree with you on that ...

So you equate having sex for pleasure instead of simply for "having children" to be akin to rape?

Do you think men rape because they enjoy sex?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmopolitan_(magazine)

Okay.. so girly magazine?

And in the name of this freedom and equality, you are willing to risk being raped?

Well the alternative is to view life and sex like a prudish twat.

I mean sure, I guess I could prefer to be dominated by men and have them dictate what I can and should do to prevent their raping me, but really?

I have already told you more than once: Suit yourself.
So stop making stuff up about me.

Unfortunately, we don't need to make this stuff up about you. You are kind of like a little open book and it's kind of embarrassing to read what you post and cringe worthy to imagine that any woman could value herself so little that she thinks she needs to be submissive to not be raped..

You didn't answer my question.

I actually did.