Puppet Strings

okay...heres god

You want me to PROVE supernatural existance, outside of this reality. You my friend are searching for answers, and answers can be hazardous to your health.

So, prove god is what you're asking. Heres god.
well theres your proof, I don't think the highest magi's, buddhist monks, christian priests, voodoo worshippers, or whatevers can do any better, proving you something.

Read my reply to missboohootech's impotence of human thought. The duality that exists which you fail to grasp is that humans have two components, both a logical and an unlogical side. You're locking firmly into one, yet the ability to explore the other lies within you just the same--however it is dormant. Having faith is trusting in the two together, integrating them into a unified mindset. Here you will realize reality is the local logical part, the part you're stuck in. You will also realize it's just whats here to distract you from an infinite boundless imaginative and informative universe that exists simultaneously--fully encompassing and creating a lower vibration, which you see as manifested as matter. Particle and a wave. You see EARTH as a particle. Other than with water, do you SEE waves of the electromagnetic spectrum? you can with technology, but do YOU see them? No. Do you see light as a wave? do you see it as a particle? Oh wait.. it is both.......that is a contradiction, oh.... oh oh...oh how can a contradiction exist...science where are you, come save me, I need you.. haha

Perhaps the duality which light exists in is the duality which is one of Faith. Something you lack.
 
The particle-wave theory is not necessarily a contradiction, rather it is one of those unexplained bits about science.

I'm sorry, but what is the value in exploring the "unlogical" side, besides from allowing obvious spelling errors? I take it that you haven't done much reading on the subject if you refer to something lacking logic as "unlogical."
 
unexplained bits of science?

Please, before you say another word, don't you believe in science? Isn't your beliefe system based upon what you know and what you can PROVE? THIS IS THE ONLY REALITY THAT EXISTS... I believe this is quite a FLAW IN YOUR BELIEF, if there is something which exists which you cannot and NO SCIENTIST can explain.

So...its not a contradiction? To me it seems like it! How can it be a wave and a particle. I don't understand. I'm too stupid I guess. You must have it solved, right? Similar to hesienburg uncertainty principle. Its a slippery slope.

Since you have all the answers, can you EXPLAIN all those unexplained bits about science, please?

The value in exploring the 'unlogical' side of things may be that you see my words have spiritual wisdom instead of spelling errors. Unlike you, I'll admit I'm FAR FROM PERFECT. Spelling has always been a weakness. Open thought has not been.
 
Mystec, I'd say something nasty but Banshee would edit out obscenities and you sound too stupid to understand subtle insults.

And I'm sorry, dear, but yes, this IS the only reality, it's all we got, so please try to stay here, rather than building a new one in your head.
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Prove it.

As any first year psych student knows, what's in our head is how we percieve "reality".

Rowen:
I've had that. In the middle of a crowded mall. I was disconnected from everything and everyone, and kept ending up in places that I shouldn't be, faster than I should have been.

I have absolutely no idea what it is, but it doesn't sound like a symptom of schitzoph - schitzophrenia - blah, too late to spell -

So what is it? I have a feeling that it has something to do with the way the brain processes sensory imput....
but this is shooting in the dark.

Adam (I think) mentioned fugue states. What you and I experienced was like one.

However, it's weird that you experienced it with someone else. Perhaps you were reinforcing each other in whatever it was.

Glacial:

Welcome to sciforums.

Now, why do you assume that anything not immediatly explained is unexplainable or illogical?

You want me to PROVE supernatural existance, outside of this reality. You my friend are searching for answers, and answers can be hazardous to your health.
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That's helpful. :rolleyes:

Nebula:
In turn, I believe that all of the "paranormal" experiences people have been describing are all products of the mind. Since I don't believe in the supernatural, I have a hard time believing their claims to be true. So sue me.
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Since we know that the mind exists, and by definition the "paranormal" is fuzzy and unknowable, your approach makes the most sense.
 
Okay, I'm getting really sick of your duck and weave arguing methods.....:p

Science is not something you believe in. I believe in the principles that underlie science, however. Asking if I believe in science is like asking someone if they believe in democracy.

I believe this is quite a FLAW IN YOUR BELIEF, if there is something which exists which you cannot and NO SCIENTIST can explain.
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They have not yet been able to explain it. Just becase they haven't doesn't mean they can't. This is still something that science theoretically can sove. So really, your comment means nothing, and it is hardly a flaw in the "belief" of science...

And as far as being childish goes...
I don't understand. I'm too stupid I guess. You must have it solved, right?
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I don't know the answers. Claiming there ARE answers is different from claiming to know the answers....

So, seeing as how there are apparently 2 aspects of the human mind, when DO you embrace the logical side?

Also, where did I say I was perfect? I think you are reading WAY too far into this. You are making a lot of conclusions that are demonstably false, and really hurting your argument...I merely brought it up to point out that you haven't done much reading on the subject and thus your conclusions (if I can even call them that) lack substance and are nothing more than the result of pre-biased introspection.

I'm no longer trying to take personal stabs BTW, why do you continue to do so?
 
Nebula:
Science is not something you believe in. I believe in the principles that underlie science, however. Asking if I believe in science is like asking someone if they believe in democracy.
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I disagree, to a degree. Science is a set of rules that we use to arrive at the truth. Democracy is an ideal.

Asking if I believe in science is like asking if I believe in geometry.

Glacial:
Open thought has not been.
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Don't mistake having different prejudices than average for not having any prejudices. :rolleyes:
 
listen to my words..

You're getting sick of bobbing and weaving?

Sounds like you've run out of firepower my friend.

The only reason I attack you is because you continue to try to discredit Rowen and Xandrique. Point a finger at one person and you'll find 4 more pointed at you. An attack on them is an attack on me, I see no difference.

When do I be logical? all the time. Assumptions I make about you are based off of something stronger than facts, something you learn from reading inbetween the lines. It's called....ummm.. Intuition. Have you ever read a book by carl jung?

I recommend you do.

This is still something that science theoretically can sove
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And I have this theory that there is more to reality than what you see. Just a theory bro... Theoretically speaking...blah blah blah, science proves a weak argument, holes in it _all_ over.

You want me to PROVE supernatural existance, outside of this reality. You my friend are searching for answers, and answers can be hazardous to your health.

Thats helpful
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Well duh, it wasn't supposed to be helpful if you don't let it. I'm saying there are an awful lot of people here who want me to put 'supernatural' (ie: god) into a box, with a label, with words, and a face and all, right at their feet. Looking for answers all around you only leaves you with more questions--Like how science solves one problem but it gives them another to explore. Like how people like missedtech and nebula turn to science to secure their place, but find themselves very insecure. Looking for answers outside is hazardous to your health because all the answers to LIFE (and living it) come from within, and only there.


Now, why do you assume that anything not immediatly explained is unexplainable or illogical?
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I'm saying it's not able to be explained with reason and with logic, it defies that. That is the beauty of it.


So like, I respect science and I look at all the medical breakthrough and abilities of communication, and will give it that validation, but I'm curious why none of you will even, although sticking to your beliefs, even attempt to give the notion that "perhaps religion/spirituality deserves some recognition".

Until you do you're being awfully one sided, but I'm not the one whos losing out, it's you.
 
I meant "believe in" in the sense that one "accepts the existence of." I mentioned democracy because, like science, it is founded on a set of ideals. Science is the quest for knowledge back by evidence, and is realized by taking a very methodological approach. Democracy is the quest for self-governance...i dunno, it made sense when I typed it :) I'm going to bed...

We can just stick with geometery :D.
 
Dude: are you simple? I said you were ducking and weaving....duck/weave arguing is pretty pathetic in my eyes, and I'm having a hard time finding the motivation to respond to your "deep" tripe...

The only reason I attack you is because you continue to try to discredit Rowen and Xandrique.
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At least you can admit that your argument is emotionally fueled ;). That's the first step in realizing a biased opinoin. Hope all goes well...

Also, I'd like to point out that I consider Rowen and, even though I haven't known her very long, Xandrique to be friends of mine. While I don't agree with everything they say, it's still fun to talk to them because they think. Friendship is stronger than comments on sciforums. So it's not like I'm attacking them personally, okay? I'm taking a critical approach to their (and eveyone's) statements. I think you just need to settle down...why not come to RD and smoke a bowl with us? :D .
 
I dance geometry and think it the likes which most cannot imagine. Spacial 4th dimension, turning in onto folding within itself. Can you envision a hypercube? a Cube in the 4th dimension? Does your mind allow you to do that? It's not hard for me to 'imagine' spaces like this. Yet I live logic. But I also live in a place which is illogical to you, pure fantasy. I blend and mold the two together, and this is what you have 'deep'--not tripe.

Words are words. You say you value their friendship. Why did you attack them here? I never knew of a FRIEND to be critical of my thoughts/feelings/beliefs/experiences when I needed support and acceptance most. You're a sorry excuse for a friend.

How come rowen told me I left an imprint on her soul? I've never even talked to her once!!! Yet you see her in real life, could she say the same about you?

It is obvious your arguement has completely and utterly BROKEN. You've now begun to talk about democracy, which, as is showing in the USA.. Money talks...

Basically though I read everything you say and just think the opposite in order to give me a logical view of what you're saying..

In saying to me that i am ducking and weaving, it's only reflexive of your own nature.

Explain those unexplainable bits of science, entertain me with some fanciful theories... I'll give yours as much credit as you give mine. So yeah, I'm still waiting for your response to that.

Now go read a book about spiritual developement, or go volunteer your time or make a beautiful piece of music or artwork to share with yourself and with the world.

I'd smoke a bowl with you but I did that along with every single drug under the sun for the last two years without a pause--along with dealing and growing it..and quite frankly I find it quite a bore these days. Living life sober is where the real highs are. But perhaps I'll go to red deer sometime sooner than later (and i really really hope I do), and i'll smoke a bowl for old times sake, everthings good in moderation...and we'll be laughing and smiling and everything is copesetic, and then quite suddenly i'll make an ass of you, and you'll suddenly see the backs of rowen, xandrique, and myself walking away, leaving you by your cold and lonely self.
 
I dance geometry and think it the likes which most cannot imagine. Spacial 4th dimension, turning in onto folding within itself. Can you envision a hypercube? a Cube in the 4th dimension
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Yep. In fact, there was a thread about them a while back.


It is obvious your arguement has completely and utterly BROKEN. You've now begun to talk about democracy, which, as is showing in the USA.. Money talks...
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You'll notice that I didn't ONCE advocate democracy, I merely tried to show (apparently it didn't work) how science isn't something you "believe." Please don't put words in my mouth.

Words are words. You say you value their friendship. Why did you attack them here? I never knew of a FRIEND to be critical of my thoughts/feelings/beliefs/experiences when I needed support and acceptance most. You're a sorry excuse for a friend.
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I don't take Sciforums to be an online shrink. Rather, I see it as a place to speak opinion, especially ones based on critical thought. You'll notice the "sci" in "sciforums"... Along with that, most people on here can ACCEPT critical thought without becoming as emotionally charged as you are...sciforums is a place that not only allows ANYONE to be critical, but it embraces that type of thought. Sciforums is another world where, until now, people could speak their mind without having to worry about "upsetting someone."

Basically though I read everything you say and just think the opposite in order to give me a logical view of what you're
saying..
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This statement is incoherent...what are you trying to say in it? It seems to say that you take the opposite of what I say and then think "that must be what he really means...." If that is so, then all I can do is laugh....

make a beautiful piece of music
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Know what? I DO write music, and I draw, and I write...and since vouching has become all the rage in this thread, ask Rowen to vouch for me...she's heard some of my music and it seemed to strike a chord with her (no pun intended :D).....I've been at the top of my art class (by about 20%) all through school and finally, in grade 12, when I was eligable, I won the school's art award. As for writing, well, my grade 12 english teacher was practically begging me to send off some of my poems to get published...also got 100% on the written component of the Diploma exam...much more, but I think that's sufficient :). I don't like to toot my own horn, but when it proves you wrong, I'm willing :D.

I'm sorry, but I really think you have assumed far too much about what kind of a person I am. I've met those kind of people before, who think that they have some sort of intellectual edge over other people; the kind of people who think that they themselves are the BEST (or one of the best) writers/poets/musicians/artists/thinkers/psychoanalists the world has ever seen. I truly hope you are not one of these people, although your unecessarily flowery writing seems to indicate otherwise. If you think you can paint an accurate picture of me based on what I say in sciforums, you have a lot of nerve/arrogance and also to learn about the nature of internet forums.

Explain those unexplainable bits of science, entertain me with some fanciful theories...
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I already told you, I can't. I'm not a quantum physicist. All I said was that AN EXPLANATION DOES EXIST, even if we haven't found it yet...

In saying to me that i am ducking and weaving, it's only reflexive of your own nature.
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Ah, let's please refrain from ambiguous/cryptic circular arguments. How is it that by accusing you of duck and weave, I become the duck and weaver? You're going to have to back up your claim, otherwise it's baseless.

I'd smoke a bowl with you but I did that along with every single drug under the sun for the last two years without a pause--along with dealing and growing it..
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Well, you are a much different person than me. I have used marijuana before, but it's what'd you'd call once in a blue moon. Also, I've set my limits, and am not crossing them. So it seems that our drug experiences are quite different...

that along with every single drug under the sun for the last two years without a pause
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Mmmmmmmmm, could this be where your altered sense of reality comes from?

Glacial, I really wish we hadn't got off on the wrong foot like this. I think if you had actually got to know me, you would've seen that I do have "spirit"....I do have all the characteristics that you have attributed to spirit/soul. My only objection is that you refer to this spirit as supernatural in nature. I'm saying that what I believe-- that spirit is something not quite that abstract-- and if you are not prepared to at least consider me beliefs....then what are you doing on sciforums?!
 
with every drug I meant, mainly smoking every day and every psychedelic which exists (cept for LSD).


What it let me gain was AWESOME awareness at looking and experiencing life from altered states of viewpoint.

Do a search +psychedelics +spirituality

I say spirit is supernatural and you seem to put words in my mouth to make it seem like it is ABOVE and MORE than natural when infact it is more natural and innate in us all than everything around us. I say every thing around us is a mere reflection and reverberation of it.

Look, see you've got all sorts of talents. Fantastic. You're seemed quite charged to tell me then, with all the details (above 20%!).. okay I got kicked out of university after my first semester. I got the lowest grade in pre-calc.

So that makes me, unintelligent, or well experienced with different ups and downs of life?

Don't even let me begin to list the number of people who were misunderstood geniuses. Escher for instance, failed all of his first year examinations. Einstien didn't talk till he was 4. Thats LATE. All sorts of anomolies exist.. Eye myself Am 1

I'm sure I took you off the wrong foot, but all I saw to BASE my reaction off of was you being critical of two people you know in real life. You're acting like a weasel from my initial confrontation, apologize to them for acting like a friend, if that is what you say you are to them. I think that you would find they appreciate it greatly.

As for me looking at what you say and reading the opposite of it. Simple. VERY SIMPLE. Ever argument has TWO SIDES? NO yes?
Everything has two sides, yin and yang, dark and light. By reading something from the side you 'state' it in at face value, and then by reading it from the opposite, I can deduce EVERYTHING inbetween. It's analytical critical analysis.

As advanced and INTELLIGENT sounding as science is, they've got NO FIRE when it comes to someone asking about the principles of light. It is plain and simple a pure enigma. This is not the only such enigma plainly put within science. The enigma is that of the under and overworlds peaking through. Making swish cheese holes in the structure of science's faulty glass pyramid.


I'll tell you, although I could learn much from you about all sorts of worldly issues, you could learn much about me about all sorts of unemperical wisdoms that exist infinitely outside of the bounds of time and space (where you are stuck). You may be a newly emerging dim beakon of hope, pouring light out from the 4th dimension and would of soul and god, both with your writing and your music, however you did not convey that it was coming through your heart on this forum with your posts in response to rowen and xandrique. I know myself, I am a very brilliantly bright beakon of hope radiating warmth and love to humanity. The reason my argument seems so charged to you is because unlike you, I am not soley stuck in mental process (my head). I go about EVERYTHING IN LIFE WITH PASSION, and that passion comes from within, from my heart.

I've found it seems to cause a stir, one way or another, my prescence. Let it be felt.
 
First of all, I'd like to say that I think we are close to coming to an agreement...:)....close, but not quite yet...:cool:

Look, see you've got all sorts of talents. Fantastic. You're seemed quite charged to tell me then, with all the details (above 20%!).. okay I got kicked out of university after my first semester. I got the lowest grade in pre-calc. So that makes me, unintelligent, or well experienced with different ups and downs of life?
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Where did I say this? I mentioned grades as evidence that I do have some "spiritual" talent, not in support of the argument that grades indicate intellect. I agree with the whole misunderstood genius idea, so don't take my comments as an insult...I am also doing poorly in a bunch of my college classes, but I know that doesn't make me dumb, just as you doing bad in calc doesn't make you dumb.


As for me looking at what you say and reading the opposite of it. Simple. VERY SIMPLE. Ever argument has TWO SIDES? NO yes?
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I agree with that statement. However, the way in which you outlined it in your previous post was kind of incoherent, so I wasn't sure enough about what you were saying to agree with it. Thanks for clearing it up though. And while you may not agree or belive me, I do think that I am a pretty open minded person as far as this goes. That's why a lot of my beliefs are "up in the air," simply because I see too much of each side to be thoroughly convinced of anything.

As advanced and INTELLIGENT sounding as science is, they've got NO FIRE when it comes to someone asking about the principles of light. It is plain and simple a pure enigma. This is not the only such enigma plainly put within science. The enigma is that of the under and overworlds peaking through. Making swish cheese holes in the structure of science's faulty glass pyramid
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Hehehe...I dare you to post this in the physics (or any other science forum). There will be plenty of people that can argue against you much better than I could.

pouring light out from the 4th dimension...[/q]
Ermm....the 4th dimension is spacial, is it not? I don't think that the 4th dimension is considered something that can eminate light (no matter how figuratively you are speaking), is it?

I'm not saying that I'm "stuck" in rationalism or the physical world. When I play music/draw etc, I definately feel like I'm in a different world, but I'm not sure that that world exists. Regarding your statement on how drugs "let [you] gain AWESOME awareness at looking and experiencing life from altered states of viewpoint," doesn't this statement actually discredit your argument? I'll explain:

Drugs elevated your spiritual awareness? Well, let's look at how drugs work: put simply, they alter chemical patterns and neural pathways in your brain. They change the physical aspect of your consciousness. Therefore, any "spiritual enlightenment" was based on the physical alteration taking place in your brain. I don't deny that one can feel "spiritual enlightenment," but what I'm arguing is that we don't have reason to believe this experience is anything more than physical.

Anyway, I actually enjoyed your last post; they are much more fun to read and reply to when you cut out the ad hominem.

All in all, I guess you could say I'm a humanist; I do think there is a great deal of beauty in the world, but I don't see why humans have to think less of ourselves and invite the supernatural into the explanation in order to describe emotional states.

So, there is, as you say, the "unknown," but I think that the only place it truly exists is in our heads.
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Futhermore, if I did insult anyone, it was not intentional and I do apologize.
 
All in all, I guess you could say I'm a humanist; I do think there is a great deal of beauty in the world, but I don't see why humans have to think less of ourselves and invite the supernatural into the explanation in order to describe emotional states.
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There is much beauty in this world. As I walked downt the street the other day I watched the world, and began to see each and every intricate detail seperate from the vagueness that usually plagues human vision. Every tree stood in a silhouette of its own reality. The sky as vast as it is was framed in its own reality. Everything began to look seperated and it was if for one of the few times in my life I saw the world. I heard the silence of the world and existed outside my own plane of reality and was therefore able to witness all other realities. Now this as Nebula said came from my physical interactions with the world, which then produced this type of response mentally. However, Nebula i am not an extremist. This experinace I believe was not purely physical or spiritual. I felt the spiritual planes of all these different objects and I felt like I was slowly steeping into their worlds. This was a combination of both sides of the argument. This experiance also included the major ingrediant of creative understanding.

However, the experiance I had before was not like this. There was no input from my concious to allow the event to occur. You exclude your reality to purely a scientific and physical point of view. This experiance proved ideas that I had previously envisioned. This does not mean that my mind created this experiance like most spiritual enlightening events. This is what I tried to convey to Nebula before. However, as you probably doubted! I knew that you were just passing me up as too imaginative. My reality does not limit itself to extremes. I believe in the physical and the unexplainable spiritual. What I wanted of you Nebula was to allow the possibility to enter your mind that there is more out there than ourselves. Not to include mystech again, but they passed off this experiance as a clever technique to be different. I previously felt Nebula that you too feel this way. Your concious physical logical explanations display that you believe we dreant this experiance up to "feel" more spirituallyu elevated. I want to proclaim now that if this event was very different then my previous creative "enlightenments"as described above. This event was not a moment of understanding. It was a moment of experiance. It was your physical interactive experiance on a spiritual plane. I felt that you belittled my intelligence by the fact that you would not allow yourself to accept the fact that I can distinguish the difference between my own spiritual experiances and real spiritual interactions.
Also, it took other people on this forum to vouch for my experiance before you would take the issue seriously. As if my word was not enough for you. Once again I feel you did not truly listen to anything I said, which displays, even if unintentional, a lack of respect for my intellect. I find that point goes along with GlacialImprints remarks on friendship.

I for one do not devalue humanity by the occurence of this experiance. I only state that there is more to this world than we can imagine. I think that one has to be open minded to this possibility to avoid the arrogance of the gilded box.

Passion. Passion you do have Nebula, but its acceptance of others passion that you have yet to learn. I agree with GlacialImprint that passionate people weave all aspects of their lives with passion. Not doing so would be a crime to their very soul. How could they write a truthful statement on the forum if they did not speak with the voice of passion. I read GlacialImprints posts and found that they had passion and relevance. Meaning that they found the golden medium. Passion is the gateway to truth and those that stifle emergences of passion slink in bettewn the shadows of society forever criticizing those that walk within the light. Passion if what makes people feel and understand. I feel passion and radiate it. It is the element of, which our souls are made of. Therefore do not devalue those remarks that are the products of passion and intellect.

There is so much to say and so little time to say it in. I am pleased that this event has opened the gates of this reality of ours and allowed for a new spectrum of light and dark to shine.

Rowen
 
I really have no idea.

I think what I think happened about the entire "Puppet Strings" experience will end up disappointing two of my friends and annoying another.


That night, I purposefully made myself more receptive to the energies of others in order to let myself escape for an evening from my emotional state. Rowen is extremely energetic and erratic and, well, it's very controlling if one will let it control...

As we were going up to the red light I decided to go to Denny's when Rowen said "Wow, it's like the world is being cut in half" and I was immediately disoriented by her disorientation (having that connection with her at the time). It feels like when I fade out in class and come back to "reality" later wondering where the hell I've been (having no recollection of my thoughts in the time I started daydreaming), it felt exactly like that... but only for about 20 seconds with a later distortion in our perception of time as we sat in the car wondering for 17 minutes.
In a way it felt as though we hit a point in the structure of time, like the "thousand evers" deja vu I've talked about before, only it was completely opposite. But I can't really back that up with proof at all...

IN CONCLUSION: Whatever Rowen went through, it effected me to nearly the same degree. It didn't feel like I was, in any way, in control of the event.


Still. I'm uncertain and I feel judged by people here. I kind of wanted just a few of my closest friends to know what had happened and ONLY if they had the capacity to accept and understand (with the knowledge and acceptance of extreme diversity spiritually and mentally). Hence my reluctance to even tell Nebula because of his skeptical view points and his want for maintenance on this reality.




If anything, I'd say that we just skipped a few seconds in our perception of time, and it was VERY disorienting.
 
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but...

Of course NOW there is STILL the question of what exactly happened to ROWEN during the experience. An imaginary, yet powerful experience (past make-belief), or did she CUT through time... or was it MY will and it only appeared to be Rowen. I DUNNO, it's very strange.
 
chalk it up as a big question mark? Don't worry about the past and just live right now. Both of your energies perhaps created a synergistic effect, therein allowing you both to experience something rather cosmic and disorienting.

If it happens next time, perhaps you'll both have increased awareness of yourselves and you'll realize what is occuring around you, and enjoy it instead of being at the helm of it.

?

just my 2 cents

*wink* :) @ u know who..
 
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