Prove it to me

Didn't mean to confuse you.

Okay. Hockey says prove it to me. My question for you is this: Would Hockey believe in God if Hockey said 'God, make this bush burn for me', and the bush immediately caught fire? Or, would Hockey look to naturalistic principles to explain the burning bush?

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Lets see, depends on the scenario, if I said god make this bush burn, then god/jesus comes in and say ok, poof bush burns, then yes i would believe. if it was possible for the bush to burn with natural causes then no. got it? really quite fair assessment i think.
 
"got it? really quite fair assessment i think."
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Okay. Now, regarding something that 'exists', Hockey would basically need some form of physical or scientific verification before Hockey will believe that said thing 'exists', because, without verification, said thing does not 'exist', correct?

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Reply to Inspector

"... without verification, said thing does not 'exist', correct?"
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false. It would be ignorant to say such, before columbus discovered the western world, we had no physical or scientific verification of this, yet it existed
 
Stu, while I appreciate the compliment, I did not write the lyrics I posted. I think they're by a band called "Rotting Christ".

And I take offense at the implication that I "serve" anything.

Jenyar:
Good is what rewards goodness. Bad is that which rewards evil. God has only rewarded good. When we suffer it is because of people, and suffering can be a blessing if you know why it is happening and survive it. We are all sinners, and no sinner is any less a sinner because of his beliefs. That is not the point of Christianity - but it is the misconception perpetuated by the Church in the Middle Ages, and what Calvyn protested against.

"Good rewards goodness" doesn't tell me what "good" is.

Jesus preached salvation, not condemnation.

He preached a bit of both, really. Unless you take the stance that Jesus' references to Gehenna were later interpolations....I won't argue with you there.

You seem to project your preference for S&M onto God. Isn't that a bit shortsighted. In what way does God, or the idea of God, cause you pain?

*Grins* I wouldn't compare any of my friends to your God. (XEV! Low!)

Actually, I'm just bored and trying to fuck with Inspector's head. However, you can't really play mind games with the mindless. :)

However, on a serious note, I would think that the creation of somewhere to torment anyone who disobeys Him is a twee bit....well, sadistic? In the origional sense. *Grins*

I mean, do all those people who lived before Jesus deserve to go to hell just because they never accepted Jesus? They didn't even have a choice!

What do you hold on to and what can't you let go of? There definitely is something. Do you have a valid reason for resenting God? More valid than Job's?

I don't believe in God, thus I don't resent him.
Sometimes, well, often, the concept is a bit of a focus for my drive to never submit. That is, God is a proxy for the things that I can't see.

Basically, I'm feeling aggressive and fight club closes after 2am.

PS. Have you read Paradise Lost?

Reading it now, actually. That's where the quote in my signature comes from.
 
"false. It would be ignorant to say such, before columbus discovered the western world, we had no physical or scientific verification of this, yet it existed"
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My point exactly. There are things that exist that CANNOT be quantified, tested in some lab, or put in a jar.

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Re: Reply to Markx

Originally posted by hockeywings
I wasnt implying that the theory of evolution by that lol, but to clarify, the theory of evolution doesnt say we are from monkeys, but that humans and monkeys came from a common descendent.

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I agree with you. Before I read Quran and became practicing muslim, I read about this theory or I say the fact that we are from the same descendent. For example, I can say that all the buildings are more or less are made by same materials but different sizes and designes. Same with humans and animals, pretty much the same material but differen sizes and designes and functions




If we were made to have infinite area, and use less resources, or need no resources, would that not be more perfect? If people lived forever, there would be no anquish of death or dieing to people. No need for medicine, because people would be perfect. I understand that in THIS world plants and animals die for a reason, but if the world was made perfect these things wouldnt be needed to replinish the earth.


No! I think it won't be perfect. Why would we live forever? with unlimited resources, when in Quran Allah/God mentioned that there is a reason we are here. What is our purpose here? This world would have been a worst palce, if one would find out that he/she won't die. I promise you that that there would have been more evil on earth then it is right now and the what would be our purpose to live at all? No deaths, no medicine so prolems and no conflicts?? I disagree. We might as well cows and sheep etc and it wouldn't make a difference. Since we have been given brains, they are there for a reason and not waste. If you look at animals and humans you will notice a different, if we were without any restrictions then i see no difference among humans and animals, poop where ever eat what ever go where ever etc etc. But that is not the case. While back I have read the yahya's article about humans and creation etc. I will post as much as I can remember and some from my notes. I will try to locate the full article for you and I hope it will make some sense to you.





The reason I do not believe in a creator of nature, birds, trees, and animals when I know everything we use has been created is as follows.

Everything we use such as clocks, computers, lamps, pencils was created by someone. Most of the time by more than one someone. If we use the logic of since these were made by creators, than the earth was made by creator(s), notice the S. We would have to say that more than one creator created this world.
Another problem with that arguement is that most inventions are not perfect. bulbs blow, pencils run out of lead, pens run out of ink, computers crash, clocks stop running, and we are supposed to believe that for the complexity of the world that only one entity created it? no, not plausible



Yes true and so does this world will run out of time and will be end soon or later. Perfect doesn't mean that it would last forever. Perfect, I used it in a sense for living conditions, breathing, vegetation, food, plants, trees and animals etc. Every thing ends at some point or time. So will this earth as promised.

One entity created the earth, now it is plausible or not it is for us to decide. We believe in God or we don't but once dead we will find out for sure. It might be too late for some of us. I looked it all from muslim perspective and not from Christian point of view anymore. It makes more sense to me. I send you something in pm please check it. I didn't want to take all the bandwidth here since Goofyfish is very sensetive about it. ;)
 
Athiest/Agnostic?

Please people. Let's not try to blend atheism with agnosticism. Very different.

:confused:
 
Reply to Markx

No! I think it won't be perfect. Why would we live forever? with unlimited resources, when in Quran Allah/God mentioned that there is a reason we are here. What is our purpose here? This world would have been a worst palce, if one would find out that he/she won't die. I promise you that that there would have been more evil on earth then it is right now and the what would be our purpose to live at all? No deaths, no medicine so prolems and no conflicts?? I disagree. We might as well cows and sheep etc and it wouldn't make a difference. Since we have been given brains, they are there for a reason and not waste. If you look at animals and humans you will notice a different, if we were without any restrictions then i see no difference among humans and animals, poop where ever eat what ever go where ever etc etc. But that is not the case. While back I have read the yahya's article about humans and creation etc. I will post as much as I can remember and some from my notes. I will try to locate the full article for you and I hope it will make some sense to you.
Wouldnt be more evil if people were created perfect in the first place......... I do not see the reasoning behind us not having problems and then us becoming like animals.....please explain.

And I checked out the pm, you got a reply.
 
Reply to Inspector, MarcAC, Davearchy

First inspector:
My point exactly. There are things that exist that CANNOT be quantified, tested in some lab, or put in a jar.
uhhh I have absolutely no idea where you went with this... elaborate.


Next MarcAC:
Please people. Let's not try to blend atheism with agnosticism. Very different.

Who are you refering to, please elaborate.

Now Davearchy:
Proof alone can never convert someone.
I dont see why not. if you can prove something why would someone go against it with eternal damnation riding on it?
 
Just found another pamphlet in the Mens room comparing Mickey Mantle's life and God's Will by way of metaphores......Geesh people, get a grip!!!! :D
 
Originally posted by stu43t
I have been gone for awhile from here too, and I am back. I would like to see any athiest in here try to prove their non-belief to me. I am muslim, but if you prove me wrong, I will convert. I wish I could expect the same in return although I doubt it.

If you can't prove yourself to me, I do not understand how you could hold these non-beliefs.

You see an athiest doesn't have anything to prove because they don't believe in anything so that reverse tricknology won't work. To believe means to accept something as fact, a fact is something that can be proven. Belief is ignorance.
 
"You see an athiest doesn't have anything to prove because they don't believe in anything so that reverse tricknology won't work. To believe means to accept something as fact, a fact is something that can be proven. Belief is ignorance."
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Many, many things wrong with these comments. First, to say that an atheist doesn't believe in anything is false. An atheist BELIEVES that God does not exist. Second, believeing does not mean accepting something as fact. Believing in something means acquiring valid evidence about something and drawing a logical conclusion based on the evidence. Third, to say that belief is ignorance is to say that atheism is ignorance, since atheists BELIEVE that God does not exist. So many pups, so little time.

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Well here is my take on this topic. Ofcoarse if "God" or Jesus came down from the heavens and proved to me that they are what the Bible says they are then I would accept it and become a die hard Christian and order a million of those pamphlets to pass out...LOL. But this is not realistic. The fact still remains that Christians and most other religious groups have blind faith and it will be something that I ponder for the rest of my life.

The Bible just does not make sense in regards to Faith. If God is the creator of the Heavens and the Earth. Then everything must lead back to him.

Let's go back to the Garden of Eden. God created Adam and with Adam's rib created Eve and put them in this paradise giving them only 2 rules. Never eat from the tree of good and evil and the tree of life. So the talking snake tempts Eve into eating the "apple" and shares it with Adam. Once God finds out he banishes them from the Garden of Eden so they won't eat from the Tree of Life and live forever. The Fall of Mankind.

Now, I have a question. Did God not realize that Satan was in the Garden? or was God working with Satan in some kind of twisted Game?

If it was the first one why wouldn't a benevolent God give Adam and Eve and basically Mankind another chance? Why would he let Satan in his Garden in the first place? And he would actually risk the number of humans to burn in eternal Hell to prove his point?

If it was the second...well that is just sick and God would not be worth worshipping IMO.

Another good point is that if this story was completely made up then there would be no reason for salvation, no need for a Saviour and really no reason for Faith. Actually there would be no Christianity.

But then again, it all comes down to perception. If you are a Christian and you believe in the books of the Bible, specifically the Adam and Eve story then you have a reason to have faith in Jesus.

Faith is subjective.
 
You assumed to much

I didn't say that atheism isn't ignorance. Just because my comments were directed towards religous people doesn't mean that it doesn't apply to an athiest. But let's clarify something, does an anthiest not-believe in god or...do they except the possibility but need proof. If it's the latter then it doesn't apply to them and if it was explained somewhere in the thread then sorry, I don't have time to read through 6 pages and I except my asshole status.


"So many pups, so little time."

...And don't try to be cool either, you had the whole thing wrong, let's keep this real. Look at you so judgemental. This is the perfect example of the religous mind state. So quick to be defensive and so happy when they think they proved someone else wrong.
 
Ahhhh, I see now "agnostic ".......Right. So an Athiest doesn't believe in god. Yeah I think that can be a little ignorant.
 
Believing in something means acquiring valid evidence about something and drawing a logical conclusion based on the evidence

I'm not an athiest but I think that athiest try their best to live by this. They try to draw the most logical conclusion to what is presented to them. Not just with the "God" concept but they also apply it to life in general. Being that there is no factual evidence for or against the existence of God, Athiest throw the case away all together.

Does that sound reasonable to you?
 
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