Prove it to me
- Thread starter hockeywings
- Start date
Reply to Inspector
"Please do. Begin with your understanding of Christian soteriology, please. Also, include your interpretation of the Trinity, please."
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Soteriology- In christian mythology it is based upon a couple principles, first that all humans have sinned or will sin and the second is that whoever sins dies. Now is when different versions of christianity differ from each other. One version says all you have to do is profess that jesus was your savior and you are saved. Others believed you needed to be circumcized. Another says you must do works and faith, another works, another faith. Yet another says you must confess to gain salvation. These are all possible for the how christians view soteriology.
As for the trinity. the trinity is the father, the son, and the holy spirit. 3 seperate entities, yet all one. which with normal common sense, and a lot of versions of christianity, it is dismissed entirely. Yet if you want me to explain this to you I will. The trinity seems to break up gods oneness to explain simple conflicts in the bible. Such as in Genesis were the bible says Us instead of I. But if they were the same, the father and the son. They would have the same qualities. Yet Jesus, being in human form, has limitations of being human. For one he can die. And one example of being limited is enough to show someone is not perfect, as a 'god' would be.
"Please do. Begin with your understanding of Christian soteriology, please. Also, include your interpretation of the Trinity, please."
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Soteriology- In christian mythology it is based upon a couple principles, first that all humans have sinned or will sin and the second is that whoever sins dies. Now is when different versions of christianity differ from each other. One version says all you have to do is profess that jesus was your savior and you are saved. Others believed you needed to be circumcized. Another says you must do works and faith, another works, another faith. Yet another says you must confess to gain salvation. These are all possible for the how christians view soteriology.
As for the trinity. the trinity is the father, the son, and the holy spirit. 3 seperate entities, yet all one. which with normal common sense, and a lot of versions of christianity, it is dismissed entirely. Yet if you want me to explain this to you I will. The trinity seems to break up gods oneness to explain simple conflicts in the bible. Such as in Genesis were the bible says Us instead of I. But if they were the same, the father and the son. They would have the same qualities. Yet Jesus, being in human form, has limitations of being human. For one he can die. And one example of being limited is enough to show someone is not perfect, as a 'god' would be.
Re: Reply to Markx
You are very right, there are no examples past or present, because I believe human mind is only capable of so much.
Surah 112. The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of Allah
1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.
No comparison, exactly my point. There are no examples that one can give. You believe it or you don't believe it. That is individual's choice.
From the moment one opens his eyes to this world a great order surrounds him. He needs oxygen to survive. It is interesting that the atmosphere of the planet he lives in provides just the adequate amount of oxygen he needs. This way, he breathes without difficulty. For the existence of life in this planet, the existence of a source of heat is essential. In response to this need, the sun is located just at the right point to emit just the adequate amount of heat and energy. Man needs to be nourished to survive. Every corner of the world abounds with an astonishingly diversified food. Likewise, he needs water. Surprisingly, three fourth of the planet is covered with water. He needs to take shelter and in this world, there is proper ground and all sorts of materials to make shelter.
These are only a few among billions of details making life possible on earth. In brief, man lives on a planet perfectly designed for his survival. This is surely a planet created for human beings. A person's interpretation of the world rests on "acquired methods of thought." That is, a person thinks in the way he is indoctrinated. Under this guidance, a person often finds all the aforementioned to be "mundane realities." However, if he does not sidestep and start questioning the conditions making his existence possible, he will surely step out of the boundaries of his habitual thinking faculties and start to think:
How does the atmosphere serve as a protective ceiling for the earth?
How does each one of the billions of cells in the human body know and perform their individual tasks?
How does an extraordinary ecological balance exist on earth?...
A person seeking answers to these questions surely proceeds on the right path. He does not remain insensitive to things happening around and doesn't feign ignorance about the extraordinary nature of the world. A person who asks questions, who reflects on and gives answers to these questions will realize that at every corner of the planet, a plan, an order reigns.
How did the flawless order in the whole universe come into being? Who provided the delicate balances in the world? How did living beings, incredibly diversified in nature, emerge?
Keeping oneself occupied with a relentless research to answer these questions results in a sharp awareness; that everything in the universe, the order, every each living being and mechanism is a component of a plan, a product of a design. In every detail, from the excellent structure in an insect's wing to the system enabling a tree to carry tons of water to its top branches, or the order of planets, the ratio of gasses in the atmosphere, are all unique examples of perfection.
In every detail of the infinitely varied world, one finds his Creator. Allah (God), the owner of everything in the whole universe, introduces Himself to man through this flawlessness. Everything surrounding man, the flying birds and our heart, the birth of a child or the existence of sun in the sky, manifest the power of Allah (God) and His creation. And what befalls man is to conceive this fact.
These purposes owe their existence to the fact that everything has been created. An intelligent person notices that plan, design and wisdom exist in every detail of the infinitely varied world. This draws him to recognition of the Creator.
So you never feign ignorance that all living beings, living or non-living, show the existence and greatness of Allah (God). Look at things surrounding you and strive to practice appreciation for the eternal greatness of Allah (God) in the best manner.
The existence of Allah (God) is APPARENT. Feigning to ignore it would only be the beginning of a great detriment one could ever do to himself. That is simply because Allah (God) is in no need of anything. He is the One who shows His greatness in all things and in all ways. Allah (God) is the owner of everything, from heavens to earth. We learn the attributes of Allah (God) from the Qur'an:
Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permit? He knows what (appears to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He wills. His Throne extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory). (Surat al-Baqara: 255)
You are very right, there are no examples past or present, because I believe human mind is only capable of so much.
Surah 112. The Unity, Sincerity, Oneness Of Allah
1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.
No comparison, exactly my point. There are no examples that one can give. You believe it or you don't believe it. That is individual's choice.
From the moment one opens his eyes to this world a great order surrounds him. He needs oxygen to survive. It is interesting that the atmosphere of the planet he lives in provides just the adequate amount of oxygen he needs. This way, he breathes without difficulty. For the existence of life in this planet, the existence of a source of heat is essential. In response to this need, the sun is located just at the right point to emit just the adequate amount of heat and energy. Man needs to be nourished to survive. Every corner of the world abounds with an astonishingly diversified food. Likewise, he needs water. Surprisingly, three fourth of the planet is covered with water. He needs to take shelter and in this world, there is proper ground and all sorts of materials to make shelter.
These are only a few among billions of details making life possible on earth. In brief, man lives on a planet perfectly designed for his survival. This is surely a planet created for human beings. A person's interpretation of the world rests on "acquired methods of thought." That is, a person thinks in the way he is indoctrinated. Under this guidance, a person often finds all the aforementioned to be "mundane realities." However, if he does not sidestep and start questioning the conditions making his existence possible, he will surely step out of the boundaries of his habitual thinking faculties and start to think:
How does the atmosphere serve as a protective ceiling for the earth?
How does each one of the billions of cells in the human body know and perform their individual tasks?
How does an extraordinary ecological balance exist on earth?...
A person seeking answers to these questions surely proceeds on the right path. He does not remain insensitive to things happening around and doesn't feign ignorance about the extraordinary nature of the world. A person who asks questions, who reflects on and gives answers to these questions will realize that at every corner of the planet, a plan, an order reigns.
How did the flawless order in the whole universe come into being? Who provided the delicate balances in the world? How did living beings, incredibly diversified in nature, emerge?
Keeping oneself occupied with a relentless research to answer these questions results in a sharp awareness; that everything in the universe, the order, every each living being and mechanism is a component of a plan, a product of a design. In every detail, from the excellent structure in an insect's wing to the system enabling a tree to carry tons of water to its top branches, or the order of planets, the ratio of gasses in the atmosphere, are all unique examples of perfection.
In every detail of the infinitely varied world, one finds his Creator. Allah (God), the owner of everything in the whole universe, introduces Himself to man through this flawlessness. Everything surrounding man, the flying birds and our heart, the birth of a child or the existence of sun in the sky, manifest the power of Allah (God) and His creation. And what befalls man is to conceive this fact.
These purposes owe their existence to the fact that everything has been created. An intelligent person notices that plan, design and wisdom exist in every detail of the infinitely varied world. This draws him to recognition of the Creator.
So you never feign ignorance that all living beings, living or non-living, show the existence and greatness of Allah (God). Look at things surrounding you and strive to practice appreciation for the eternal greatness of Allah (God) in the best manner.
The existence of Allah (God) is APPARENT. Feigning to ignore it would only be the beginning of a great detriment one could ever do to himself. That is simply because Allah (God) is in no need of anything. He is the One who shows His greatness in all things and in all ways. Allah (God) is the owner of everything, from heavens to earth. We learn the attributes of Allah (God) from the Qur'an:
Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permit? He knows what (appears to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He wills. His Throne extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory). (Surat al-Baqara: 255)
"And one example of being limited is enough to show someone is not perfect, as a 'god' would be."
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Thanks for responding, Hockey.
This is why Christianity is misunderstood by those who are not familiar with biblical doctrine. One of the doctrines that many people fail to understand concerning Jesus is the doctrine of the hypostatic union. This is in the teaching that Jesus has two natures: God and man. In other words, Jesus is both God and man at the same time. This is why we see some scriptures that point to Him being divine and others pointing to Him being a man. Below is an example illustrating the two natures of Jesus as derived from scripture. Jesus is one person, with two natures.
Jesus is God.
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:1-2)
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15)
He knew all things (John 21:17)
He gives eternal life (John 20:28)
The fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9)
Jesus is man.
He worshiped the Father (John 17)
He prayed to the Father (John 17:1)
He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).
He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)
He was tempted (Matt. 4:1)
He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52)
He died (Rom. 5:8)
He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)
This is not a made-up doctrine. Rather, it is a doctrine derived from observing God's word. It is true that God cannot die. It is also true that man can die. But we see that Jesus has two natures, not one. It was the human part of Jesus that died on the cross, not the divine. But, because He is both God and man in one person, and because He was sinless, His sacrifice is sufficient to cover the sins of the world. Please take the time to review the biblical passages I have cited, as I have taken the time to post them here. BTW, your concept of soteriology is not exactly correct either, but I will perhaps tackle that one tomorrow.
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Thanks for responding, Hockey.
This is why Christianity is misunderstood by those who are not familiar with biblical doctrine. One of the doctrines that many people fail to understand concerning Jesus is the doctrine of the hypostatic union. This is in the teaching that Jesus has two natures: God and man. In other words, Jesus is both God and man at the same time. This is why we see some scriptures that point to Him being divine and others pointing to Him being a man. Below is an example illustrating the two natures of Jesus as derived from scripture. Jesus is one person, with two natures.
Jesus is God.
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:1-2)
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)
He is sinless (1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15)
He knew all things (John 21:17)
He gives eternal life (John 20:28)
The fullness of deity dwells in Him (Col. 2:9)
Jesus is man.
He worshiped the Father (John 17)
He prayed to the Father (John 17:1)
He was called man (Mark 15:39; John 19:5).
He was called Son of Man (John 9:35-37)
He was tempted (Matt. 4:1)
He grew in wisdom (Luke 2:52)
He died (Rom. 5:8)
He has a body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39)
This is not a made-up doctrine. Rather, it is a doctrine derived from observing God's word. It is true that God cannot die. It is also true that man can die. But we see that Jesus has two natures, not one. It was the human part of Jesus that died on the cross, not the divine. But, because He is both God and man in one person, and because He was sinless, His sacrifice is sufficient to cover the sins of the world. Please take the time to review the biblical passages I have cited, as I have taken the time to post them here. BTW, your concept of soteriology is not exactly correct either, but I will perhaps tackle that one tomorrow.
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Reply to Markx
Markx, you describe the billions of small things that make life on Earth possible. Now, it is amazing that all these things are possible on this one planet.
But take a look at the universe as a whole, all the galaxies, all the planets, almost infinitely many, if not infinitely many. Now it is not hard to imagine, that out of all these INFINITELY many planets, one has the capabilities to support human life.
Another way to look at it is from an evolutionary aspect. We have a planet, organisms form, and humans adapt to the enviroment. We are the ones adapting to fit the enviroment that is here. Both of these are possibilities no?
An example to help explain the second scenario would be as follows: A deliquent child is sent to boot camp. He is forced to live as he can survive easiest there, (if he acts out of line, he is deciplined). Now the deliquent would be acting different if he was in different circumstances just as humans might be if we were in different circumstances.
In response to your paragraph about perfection of the world. The world is not perfect, there is disease, famen, injuries, death, terrorism, and dictatorships. There is an extreme waste of space particularly in outer space. Waste indicates something is not perfect.
If things are not perfect this negates your next paragraph of seeing a creator, Allah, who made this perfection.
I believe I have responded to all of your post, point something out if I didn't.
Markx, you describe the billions of small things that make life on Earth possible. Now, it is amazing that all these things are possible on this one planet.
But take a look at the universe as a whole, all the galaxies, all the planets, almost infinitely many, if not infinitely many. Now it is not hard to imagine, that out of all these INFINITELY many planets, one has the capabilities to support human life.
Another way to look at it is from an evolutionary aspect. We have a planet, organisms form, and humans adapt to the enviroment. We are the ones adapting to fit the enviroment that is here. Both of these are possibilities no?
An example to help explain the second scenario would be as follows: A deliquent child is sent to boot camp. He is forced to live as he can survive easiest there, (if he acts out of line, he is deciplined). Now the deliquent would be acting different if he was in different circumstances just as humans might be if we were in different circumstances.
In response to your paragraph about perfection of the world. The world is not perfect, there is disease, famen, injuries, death, terrorism, and dictatorships. There is an extreme waste of space particularly in outer space. Waste indicates something is not perfect.
If things are not perfect this negates your next paragraph of seeing a creator, Allah, who made this perfection.
I believe I have responded to all of your post, point something out if I didn't.
Reply to Inspector
Perfect is having ZERO faults. Even if Jesus is man AND god, it does not hinder the fact that the man part can die, and that is a fault.
Another example of Gods imperfection is the need for a sacrifice. If god made his creation truely perfect, which is the only way a perfect being could, there would be no need for a sacrifice.
In reference to soteriology, I was giving you various ways different christians use it, I have personally been told this by various christians. How YOU view it may be different although. Which is yet another example of Gods imperfection. If he were perfect there would be no doubt what he says in his words.
Perfect is having ZERO faults. Even if Jesus is man AND god, it does not hinder the fact that the man part can die, and that is a fault.
Another example of Gods imperfection is the need for a sacrifice. If god made his creation truely perfect, which is the only way a perfect being could, there would be no need for a sacrifice.
In reference to soteriology, I was giving you various ways different christians use it, I have personally been told this by various christians. How YOU view it may be different although. Which is yet another example of Gods imperfection. If he were perfect there would be no doubt what he says in his words.
Markx,
I've never been to Egypt, yet I believe it exists. Why? Because I know I could go there if I really wanted to. Right now, I can't prove to you that Egypt exists, and I can't prove to you that it doesn't. You would have to see Egypt for yourself to have undeniable proof that Egypt exists.
However, there is nothing that makes me question Egypt's existence, so there's no reason for me not to believe Egypt exists.
Now, if you can relate this to the Bible and Christianity, maybe you can see why I am asking for clarification.
You're right, there are so many things that we must believe exists in order to live the way we do.
We have to believe there are really satellites up in space beaming us our digital quality television broadcasts.
We have to believe that gas is pumped out of the ground for our use, and not a concoction created by Satan and all his 'helpers', and that its use doesn't automatically damn us to Hell.
If you want me to prove I exist, we can meet for tea sometime. I can prove to you I exist.
I've never been to Egypt, yet I believe it exists. Why? Because I know I could go there if I really wanted to. Right now, I can't prove to you that Egypt exists, and I can't prove to you that it doesn't. You would have to see Egypt for yourself to have undeniable proof that Egypt exists.
However, there is nothing that makes me question Egypt's existence, so there's no reason for me not to believe Egypt exists.
Now, if you can relate this to the Bible and Christianity, maybe you can see why I am asking for clarification.
You're right, there are so many things that we must believe exists in order to live the way we do.
We have to believe there are really satellites up in space beaming us our digital quality television broadcasts.
We have to believe that gas is pumped out of the ground for our use, and not a concoction created by Satan and all his 'helpers', and that its use doesn't automatically damn us to Hell.
inspector,
First off, I know you are only trying to help. I want to thank you for your patience.
However, I have difficulty believing Jesus is God just because of these things. Very few of these things can be proven:
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:1-2)
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)
I believe these things to be true, because I have seen them. So, there is proof that they are true (to me at least).
This does not make Jesus a God, though. I can apply each and every one of the four listed to a rock.
The rest of your examples cannot be proven. I could elaborate, but I am sure it is obvious why the rest cannot be proven.
First off, I know you are only trying to help. I want to thank you for your patience.
However, I have difficulty believing Jesus is God just because of these things. Very few of these things can be proven:
He is worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9)
He is prayed to (Acts 7:59; 1 Cor. 1:1-2)
He was called God (John 20:28; Heb. 1:8)
He was called Son of God (Mark 1:1)
I believe these things to be true, because I have seen them. So, there is proof that they are true (to me at least).
This does not make Jesus a God, though. I can apply each and every one of the four listed to a rock.
The rest of your examples cannot be proven. I could elaborate, but I am sure it is obvious why the rest cannot be proven.
"In reference to soteriology, I was giving you various ways different christians use it, I have personally been told this by various christians. How YOU view it may be different although. Which is yet another example of Gods imperfection. If he were perfect there would be no doubt what he says in his words."
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Hockey, work with me here. God's Word is perfect. It is mankind that is flawed, due to the introduction of evil (Original Sin). It is the nature of man to fulfill selfish desires. This is why there are different interpretations of the Bible, and ultimately, different religions. I do not attempt to alter His Word in any way. This being said, soteriology is simply defined as the doctrine of salvation. According to the Bible, we are saved by the grace of God (a free gift) through our faith in Him. This is Romans 5:1.
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Hockey, work with me here. God's Word is perfect. It is mankind that is flawed, due to the introduction of evil (Original Sin). It is the nature of man to fulfill selfish desires. This is why there are different interpretations of the Bible, and ultimately, different religions. I do not attempt to alter His Word in any way. This being said, soteriology is simply defined as the doctrine of salvation. According to the Bible, we are saved by the grace of God (a free gift) through our faith in Him. This is Romans 5:1.
><>
"This does not make Jesus a God, though. I can apply each and every one of the four listed to a rock.
The rest of your examples cannot be proven. I could elaborate, but I am sure it is obvious why the rest cannot be proven."
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VAKEMP, my friend. You are struggling with the concept of God because you are obviously hung up on this 'proof' thing. I understand how this can be a roadblock for you. I am currently addressing this issue on another thread here on this site. Regardless, if God were to furnish physical proof for everyone who demanded it (i.e. miracle after miracle), there would be no need for faith, would there?
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The rest of your examples cannot be proven. I could elaborate, but I am sure it is obvious why the rest cannot be proven."
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VAKEMP, my friend. You are struggling with the concept of God because you are obviously hung up on this 'proof' thing. I understand how this can be a roadblock for you. I am currently addressing this issue on another thread here on this site. Regardless, if God were to furnish physical proof for everyone who demanded it (i.e. miracle after miracle), there would be no need for faith, would there?
><>
Re: Reply to Markx
Good, I was expecting you to bring this point up. I am sorry that you have to reply to so many people here. It is amazing isn't it that all of thses little things are possible on earth and I don't disagree with evolution either. I believe it was all part of a greater designe. But I don't believe that humans were monkey first. But anyways.
But take a look at the universe as a whole, all the galaxies, all the planets, almost infinitely many, if not infinitely many. Now it is not hard to imagine, that out of all these INFINITELY many planets, one has the capabilities to support human life.
Why one? I am sure there are more then one planet that can support life of certain form or kind. Since we haven't been to them we can't say that they don't have any life. So, If I take your logic, then you are saying that it is merely an incident? that earth is suitable for humans and animals and plants etc?.
Another way to look at it is from an evolutionary aspect. We have a planet, organisms form, and humans adapt to the enviroment. We are the ones adapting to fit the enviroment that is here. Both of these are possibilities no?
yes it is a possiblity, and I didn't reject the evolution.
In response to your paragraph about perfection of the world. The world is not perfect, there is disease, famen, injuries, death, terrorism, and dictatorships. There is an extreme waste of space particularly in outer space. Waste indicates something is not perfect.
Well, to me it is pretty simple. A world without deaths and diesee, injuries would be so weird. No one dies, no dieases nothing to comapre to good or bad. I think then it would be imprefect world where population will increase and resourcess will decrease. Do you see what I am trying to say?. What would you call it ? perfect or imperfect?. What would it be like, people living 900, 1000 years, then no diesease then there would be no cures? no medicine so that profession wouldn't even existed.If you look at logically you will see that the reasoning and pattern for humans and animals. Eevery thing is meant to be destroyed at a certain time. From humans to stars and galaxies, recent news on yahoo about two galaxies going into black hole or something. This is the part of designe. Every thing that we use is created by some one then what is a problem in believing that nature also requires a creater?. If every thing that you use is created by some one or something then why not trees, birds, and animals are created by some one or something?. I hope you understand what is my point.
Also, I don't see any waste of space in galaxies and etc. I will give you more insight on that soon.
An example to help explain the second scenario would be as follows: A deliquent child is sent to boot camp. He is forced to live as he can survive easiest there, (if he acts out of line, he is deciplined). Now the deliquent would be acting different if he was in different circumstances just as humans might be if we were in different circumstances.
I believe I have already answered it above?
Peace
Good, I was expecting you to bring this point up. I am sorry that you have to reply to so many people here. It is amazing isn't it that all of thses little things are possible on earth and I don't disagree with evolution either. I believe it was all part of a greater designe. But I don't believe that humans were monkey first. But anyways.
But take a look at the universe as a whole, all the galaxies, all the planets, almost infinitely many, if not infinitely many. Now it is not hard to imagine, that out of all these INFINITELY many planets, one has the capabilities to support human life.
Why one? I am sure there are more then one planet that can support life of certain form or kind. Since we haven't been to them we can't say that they don't have any life. So, If I take your logic, then you are saying that it is merely an incident? that earth is suitable for humans and animals and plants etc?.
Another way to look at it is from an evolutionary aspect. We have a planet, organisms form, and humans adapt to the enviroment. We are the ones adapting to fit the enviroment that is here. Both of these are possibilities no?
yes it is a possiblity, and I didn't reject the evolution.
In response to your paragraph about perfection of the world. The world is not perfect, there is disease, famen, injuries, death, terrorism, and dictatorships. There is an extreme waste of space particularly in outer space. Waste indicates something is not perfect.
Well, to me it is pretty simple. A world without deaths and diesee, injuries would be so weird. No one dies, no dieases nothing to comapre to good or bad. I think then it would be imprefect world where population will increase and resourcess will decrease. Do you see what I am trying to say?. What would you call it ? perfect or imperfect?. What would it be like, people living 900, 1000 years, then no diesease then there would be no cures? no medicine so that profession wouldn't even existed.If you look at logically you will see that the reasoning and pattern for humans and animals. Eevery thing is meant to be destroyed at a certain time. From humans to stars and galaxies, recent news on yahoo about two galaxies going into black hole or something. This is the part of designe. Every thing that we use is created by some one then what is a problem in believing that nature also requires a creater?. If every thing that you use is created by some one or something then why not trees, birds, and animals are created by some one or something?. I hope you understand what is my point.
Also, I don't see any waste of space in galaxies and etc. I will give you more insight on that soon.
An example to help explain the second scenario would be as follows: A deliquent child is sent to boot camp. He is forced to live as he can survive easiest there, (if he acts out of line, he is deciplined). Now the deliquent would be acting different if he was in different circumstances just as humans might be if we were in different circumstances.
I believe I have already answered it above?
Peace
Reply to Inspector
About soteriology, there are vague verses in the bible which lead to different interpretations, not by the sins of man, but by the indiscrete version of the bible.
Circumcicion is believed to be needed by some christians based on Genisis 17:10 which talks of every male being circumcized.
Just some verses to read up on to give you an idea of why some believe it is works or deeds that you need WITH faith to gain salvation
Matthew 12:37
16:27
19:16-23 not to do with deeds, but shows that you need more than faith
Roman 2:6, 13
Roman 2:1 Condemn yourself if you judge another, another work that takes away your salvation
2 Cor 5:10
2 Cor 11:15
James 2:11-17, 21-26
1 Peter 1:17
And to question your reply to Vakemp, he needs not to do miricle after miricle, just to show him, and him being everywhere right now, would make it simplistically easy for him to do so, yet he doesn't. And considering how blind faith is so easily shown to be a crock of you know what, this would be a considerable thing to do from an all benevolent god.
About soteriology, there are vague verses in the bible which lead to different interpretations, not by the sins of man, but by the indiscrete version of the bible.
Circumcicion is believed to be needed by some christians based on Genisis 17:10 which talks of every male being circumcized.
Just some verses to read up on to give you an idea of why some believe it is works or deeds that you need WITH faith to gain salvation
Matthew 12:37
16:27
19:16-23 not to do with deeds, but shows that you need more than faith
Roman 2:6, 13
Roman 2:1 Condemn yourself if you judge another, another work that takes away your salvation
2 Cor 5:10
2 Cor 11:15
James 2:11-17, 21-26
1 Peter 1:17
And to question your reply to Vakemp, he needs not to do miricle after miricle, just to show him, and him being everywhere right now, would make it simplistically easy for him to do so, yet he doesn't. And considering how blind faith is so easily shown to be a crock of you know what, this would be a considerable thing to do from an all benevolent god.
inspector,
Don't take this the wrong way, but that made me laugh.
You are right, I am stuck on the 'proof' thing.
Example:
I'm not a scientist, and I don't claim to be. If someone thinks they know why a rock falls the way it does when they drop it, I don't mind accepting their idea.
However, if how that rock falls is important to me, I will have to ask that person to support their reasoning as to why the rock falls the way it does. If they cannot prove to me they know why the rock falls in a certain way, I have to try and find out for myself.
In other words, if what that person says doesn't make sense to me, or doesn't explain to me why the rock falls the way it does, I shouldn't be expected to agree that a rock falls the way it does because someone said so, and that's the only explanation.
It doesn't matter if the explanation is widely accepted or not, if it doesn't answer all of my questins.
And if it doesn't fully explain why the rock falls the way it does, then to me that means there is a possibility that the rock falls the way it does for a completely different reason altogether.
BTW, this rock has no relation to the rock in my previous post.
Don't take this the wrong way, but that made me laugh.
You are right, I am stuck on the 'proof' thing.
Example:
I'm not a scientist, and I don't claim to be. If someone thinks they know why a rock falls the way it does when they drop it, I don't mind accepting their idea.
However, if how that rock falls is important to me, I will have to ask that person to support their reasoning as to why the rock falls the way it does. If they cannot prove to me they know why the rock falls in a certain way, I have to try and find out for myself.
In other words, if what that person says doesn't make sense to me, or doesn't explain to me why the rock falls the way it does, I shouldn't be expected to agree that a rock falls the way it does because someone said so, and that's the only explanation.
It doesn't matter if the explanation is widely accepted or not, if it doesn't answer all of my questins.
And if it doesn't fully explain why the rock falls the way it does, then to me that means there is a possibility that the rock falls the way it does for a completely different reason altogether.
BTW, this rock has no relation to the rock in my previous post.
Reply to Markx
I wasnt implying that the theory of evolution by that lol, but to clarify, the theory of evolution doesnt say we are from monkeys, but that humans and monkeys came from a common descendent.
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"Why one? I am sure there are more then one planet that can support life of certain form or kind. Since we haven't been to them we can't say that they don't have any life. So, If I take your logic, then you are saying that it is merely an incident? that earth is suitable for humans and animals and plants etc?. "
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Alls I said is out of the infinitely numourous planets, one has capabilities to have humans on it. I did not mean to say no other planet can. My mistake, I will try to be clearer next time.
I am saying that out of infinitely many planets, at least one is bound to have the capabilities to have humans on it. May be an isolated incident, might not be, we dont know.
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"Well, to me it is pretty simple. A world without deaths and diesee, injuries would be so weird. No one dies, no dieases nothing to comapre to good or bad. I think then it would be imprefect world where population will increase and resourcess will decrease. Do you see what I am trying to say?. What would you call it ? perfect or imperfect?. What would it be like, people living 900, 1000 years, then no diesease then there would be no cures? no medicine so that profession wouldn't even existed.If you look at logically you will see that the reasoning and pattern for humans and animals. Eevery thing is meant to be destroyed at a certain time. From humans to stars and galaxies, recent news on yahoo about two galaxies going into black hole or something. This is the part of designe. Every thing that we use is created by some one then what is a problem in believing that nature also requires a creater?. If every thing that you use is created by some one or something then why not trees, birds, and animals are created by some one or something?. I hope you understand what is my point.
Also, I don't see any waste of space in galaxies and etc. I will give you more insight on that soon"
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If we were made to have infinite area, and use less resources, or need no resources, would that not be more perfect? If people lived forever, there would be no anquish of death or dieing to people. No need for medicine, because people would be perfect. I understand that in THIS world plants and animals die for a reason, but if the world was made perfect these things wouldnt be needed to replinish the earth.
The reason I do not believe in a creator of nature, birds, trees, and animals when I know everything we use has been created is as follows.
Everything we use such as clocks, computers, lamps, pencils was created by someone. Most of the time by more than one someone. If we use the logic of since these were made by creators, than the earth was made by creator(s), notice the S. We would have to say that more than one creator created this world.
Another problem with that arguement is that most inventions are not perfect. bulbs blow, pencils run out of lead, pens run out of ink, computers crash, clocks stop running, and we are supposed to believe that for the complexity of the world that only one entity created it? no, not plausible.
I wasnt implying that the theory of evolution by that lol, but to clarify, the theory of evolution doesnt say we are from monkeys, but that humans and monkeys came from a common descendent.
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"Why one? I am sure there are more then one planet that can support life of certain form or kind. Since we haven't been to them we can't say that they don't have any life. So, If I take your logic, then you are saying that it is merely an incident? that earth is suitable for humans and animals and plants etc?. "
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Alls I said is out of the infinitely numourous planets, one has capabilities to have humans on it. I did not mean to say no other planet can. My mistake, I will try to be clearer next time.
I am saying that out of infinitely many planets, at least one is bound to have the capabilities to have humans on it. May be an isolated incident, might not be, we dont know.
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"Well, to me it is pretty simple. A world without deaths and diesee, injuries would be so weird. No one dies, no dieases nothing to comapre to good or bad. I think then it would be imprefect world where population will increase and resourcess will decrease. Do you see what I am trying to say?. What would you call it ? perfect or imperfect?. What would it be like, people living 900, 1000 years, then no diesease then there would be no cures? no medicine so that profession wouldn't even existed.If you look at logically you will see that the reasoning and pattern for humans and animals. Eevery thing is meant to be destroyed at a certain time. From humans to stars and galaxies, recent news on yahoo about two galaxies going into black hole or something. This is the part of designe. Every thing that we use is created by some one then what is a problem in believing that nature also requires a creater?. If every thing that you use is created by some one or something then why not trees, birds, and animals are created by some one or something?. I hope you understand what is my point.
Also, I don't see any waste of space in galaxies and etc. I will give you more insight on that soon"
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If we were made to have infinite area, and use less resources, or need no resources, would that not be more perfect? If people lived forever, there would be no anquish of death or dieing to people. No need for medicine, because people would be perfect. I understand that in THIS world plants and animals die for a reason, but if the world was made perfect these things wouldnt be needed to replinish the earth.
The reason I do not believe in a creator of nature, birds, trees, and animals when I know everything we use has been created is as follows.
Everything we use such as clocks, computers, lamps, pencils was created by someone. Most of the time by more than one someone. If we use the logic of since these were made by creators, than the earth was made by creator(s), notice the S. We would have to say that more than one creator created this world.
Another problem with that arguement is that most inventions are not perfect. bulbs blow, pencils run out of lead, pens run out of ink, computers crash, clocks stop running, and we are supposed to believe that for the complexity of the world that only one entity created it? no, not plausible.
"It doesn't matter if the explanation is widely accepted or not, if it doesn't answer all of my questins."
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Thanks for responding, VAKEMP. I've got about ten years on you, and I want you to know this. If you wait for all of your questions to be answered, then you are doing two things: 1. letting a wonderful life pass you by and 2. you will be waiting forever, because you will never have all of the answers to your questions.
Let me give you an example. Regarding that rock analogy you gave earlier, what if science couldn't explain why that rock falls the way it does? Would you simply deny that the rock even fell at all? No, you would have faith that if you dropped a rock also, then it would fall in a similar manner. You have faith in everything you do, even some things that you do not have answers to. For example, when you get up in the morning to go to work or school, do you sit around asking 'Will I make it to work or school today? Will I get hit by a bus?' Of course not. You go because you have faith that you will make it to work or school. My point is you will NEVER have all of the answers to some things in this life, so you will have to rely on your faith, whether it is in Jesus, or whatever.
><>
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Thanks for responding, VAKEMP. I've got about ten years on you, and I want you to know this. If you wait for all of your questions to be answered, then you are doing two things: 1. letting a wonderful life pass you by and 2. you will be waiting forever, because you will never have all of the answers to your questions.
Let me give you an example. Regarding that rock analogy you gave earlier, what if science couldn't explain why that rock falls the way it does? Would you simply deny that the rock even fell at all? No, you would have faith that if you dropped a rock also, then it would fall in a similar manner. You have faith in everything you do, even some things that you do not have answers to. For example, when you get up in the morning to go to work or school, do you sit around asking 'Will I make it to work or school today? Will I get hit by a bus?' Of course not. You go because you have faith that you will make it to work or school. My point is you will NEVER have all of the answers to some things in this life, so you will have to rely on your faith, whether it is in Jesus, or whatever.
><>
"And to question your reply to Vakemp, he needs not to do miricle after miricle, just to show him, and him being everywhere right now, would make it simplistically easy for him to do so, yet he doesn't. And considering how blind faith is so easily shown to be a crock of you know what, this would be a considerable thing to do from an all benevolent god."
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Hockey, you often present good questions. However, once again, if Jesus offered physical proof every time someone asked, where would the need for faith be? If we got proof every time we asked, and subsequently had no faith because we didn't need it, then we would not be saved, since 'we are SAVED by grace through FAITH' as Romans 5:1 reveals.
If you are asking for physical evidence for the supernatural, I can likewise ask for physical proof of the natural, of which there are many, many things that are beyond the scope of scientific scrutiny, hence unexplained. Yet, even without physical proof, we have faith and believe that such things exist.
><>
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Hockey, you often present good questions. However, once again, if Jesus offered physical proof every time someone asked, where would the need for faith be? If we got proof every time we asked, and subsequently had no faith because we didn't need it, then we would not be saved, since 'we are SAVED by grace through FAITH' as Romans 5:1 reveals.
If you are asking for physical evidence for the supernatural, I can likewise ask for physical proof of the natural, of which there are many, many things that are beyond the scope of scientific scrutiny, hence unexplained. Yet, even without physical proof, we have faith and believe that such things exist.
><>
Reply to Inspector
"Hockey, you often present good questions. However, once again, if Jesus offered physical proof every time someone asked, where would the need for faith be? If we got proof every time we asked, and subsequently had no faith because we didn't need it, then we would not be saved, since 'we are SAVED by grace through FAITH' as Romans 5:1 reveals.
If you are asking for physical evidence for the supernatural, I can likewise ask for physical proof of the natural, of which there are many, many things that are beyond the scope of scientific scrutiny, hence unexplained. Yet, even without physical proof, we have faith and believe that such things exist. "
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If we all had seen him, even according to you we would still need 'faith' to believe.
For in just your previous response to vakemp you said "You go because you have faith that you will make it to work or school."
We had made it to work or school before without dieing, and this is faith, yet if we see jesus it is no longer faith on whether he is the one true savior? The people back in the old testimont saw god and his actions, now they dont have faith? people in the new testimont saw jesus and his 'miricles', do they not have faith? are matthew, luke, john, in hell now, BECAUSE they saw jesus?
thats absurd
"Hockey, you often present good questions. However, once again, if Jesus offered physical proof every time someone asked, where would the need for faith be? If we got proof every time we asked, and subsequently had no faith because we didn't need it, then we would not be saved, since 'we are SAVED by grace through FAITH' as Romans 5:1 reveals.
If you are asking for physical evidence for the supernatural, I can likewise ask for physical proof of the natural, of which there are many, many things that are beyond the scope of scientific scrutiny, hence unexplained. Yet, even without physical proof, we have faith and believe that such things exist. "
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If we all had seen him, even according to you we would still need 'faith' to believe.
For in just your previous response to vakemp you said "You go because you have faith that you will make it to work or school."
We had made it to work or school before without dieing, and this is faith, yet if we see jesus it is no longer faith on whether he is the one true savior? The people back in the old testimont saw god and his actions, now they dont have faith? people in the new testimont saw jesus and his 'miricles', do they not have faith? are matthew, luke, john, in hell now, BECAUSE they saw jesus?
thats absurd
"The people back in the old testimont saw god and his actions, now they dont have faith? people in the new testimont saw jesus and his 'miricles', do they not have faith? are matthew, luke, john, in hell now, BECAUSE they saw jesus?"
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You have either misunderstood me, or you are attempting the typical ploy of twisting and using out of context what I previously stated. I never said that if you physically see Jesus you are not saved. You made that up. You are the one asking to see Him, or for Him to furnish proof. I am merely showing you that faith in Jesus, accompanied by His grace, is neccessary for salvation. Regarding Jesus' apostles, even though they walked along side of Him, they had faith that He really WAS the Son of God, and that someday He would return, thus fulfilling yet another prophecy.
Hockey, you seemed sincere from the beginning concerning your desire to understand the foundation of Christianity, however, I am now having my doubts.
><>
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You have either misunderstood me, or you are attempting the typical ploy of twisting and using out of context what I previously stated. I never said that if you physically see Jesus you are not saved. You made that up. You are the one asking to see Him, or for Him to furnish proof. I am merely showing you that faith in Jesus, accompanied by His grace, is neccessary for salvation. Regarding Jesus' apostles, even though they walked along side of Him, they had faith that He really WAS the Son of God, and that someday He would return, thus fulfilling yet another prophecy.
Hockey, you seemed sincere from the beginning concerning your desire to understand the foundation of Christianity, however, I am now having my doubts.
><>
Great reply, inspector.
Once again, to a certain extent, I agree with you.
Like I have said several times, it is not the idea of a God existing that I dispute, as I see a great possibility that one does. It is the explanation of who God is and what He wants from us that I have a hard time accepting.
That is because the only information I can find about God was created by man. This is all I have to go off of.
God has not spoken to me. God has not shown me any 'signs' that He exists. Some people say they have been given signs before. I don't discredit them at all. If God has spoken to them, then they have been given proof by Him. Still, I cannot go off of one person's word that this actually happened.
And just to put it all into perspective, I will remind you that it was only after God had spoken to Moses that he became great. (To clarify, I am in no way comparing myself to Moses)
Once again, to a certain extent, I agree with you.
Like I have said several times, it is not the idea of a God existing that I dispute, as I see a great possibility that one does. It is the explanation of who God is and what He wants from us that I have a hard time accepting.
That is because the only information I can find about God was created by man. This is all I have to go off of.
God has not spoken to me. God has not shown me any 'signs' that He exists. Some people say they have been given signs before. I don't discredit them at all. If God has spoken to them, then they have been given proof by Him. Still, I cannot go off of one person's word that this actually happened.
And just to put it all into perspective, I will remind you that it was only after God had spoken to Moses that he became great. (To clarify, I am in no way comparing myself to Moses)
Reply to Inpsector
Sir,
"Regardless, if God were to furnish physical proof for everyone who demanded it (i.e. miracle after miracle), there would be no need for faith, would there?"
"if Jesus offered physical proof every time someone asked, where would the need for faith be?"
Now,
Quoted by me:"The people back in the old testimont saw god and his actions, now they dont have faith? people in the new testimont saw jesus and his 'miricles', do they not have faith? are matthew, luke, john, in hell now, BECAUSE they saw jesus?"
These people 'saw' the miricles from jesus, and the people from the old testimont 'saw' god and his actions. We have never seen these things, and you imply by us seeing them we would no longer need faith (your first qquote, and second quote)
Now if we saw the same things the people of the old and new testimont saw, why do they still have faith and we dont? I dont understand. Do we still not have this faith?
Quoted by you :"Regarding Jesus' apostles, even though they walked along side of Him, they had faith that He really WAS the Son of God, and that someday He would return, thus fulfilling yet another prophecy."
hmmm?
Do not tell me I do not understand the foundations of christianity, I may not understand YOUR foundations of christianity, but I am well understood of the Bible and its contents, the topic of this thread is to prove it to me.
Sir,
"Regardless, if God were to furnish physical proof for everyone who demanded it (i.e. miracle after miracle), there would be no need for faith, would there?"
"if Jesus offered physical proof every time someone asked, where would the need for faith be?"
Now,
Quoted by me:"The people back in the old testimont saw god and his actions, now they dont have faith? people in the new testimont saw jesus and his 'miricles', do they not have faith? are matthew, luke, john, in hell now, BECAUSE they saw jesus?"
These people 'saw' the miricles from jesus, and the people from the old testimont 'saw' god and his actions. We have never seen these things, and you imply by us seeing them we would no longer need faith (your first qquote, and second quote)
Now if we saw the same things the people of the old and new testimont saw, why do they still have faith and we dont? I dont understand. Do we still not have this faith?
Quoted by you :"Regarding Jesus' apostles, even though they walked along side of Him, they had faith that He really WAS the Son of God, and that someday He would return, thus fulfilling yet another prophecy."
hmmm?
Do not tell me I do not understand the foundations of christianity, I may not understand YOUR foundations of christianity, but I am well understood of the Bible and its contents, the topic of this thread is to prove it to me.