"proof that the christian god can't exist, debunked"

[scifes]

hmm, i didnt understand this topic much, can anyone say it more simply, i don't christanity, but i do beleive in God,

lol i'd like to explain the paradox to you, but am afraid you won't understand the answer to it, then you'd get messed up for a mere play of words..didn't your parents tell you to stay away from atheists?

welcome to sciforums shadow one..the whole discussion is as follows;
god exists right? can you make choices in your life or not?

But they didn't "choose". It was pre-ordained that they go the way they did. Everything they picked was set for them.

it was preordained they'd "choose" their choice, you'll never change that even if you keep trying from today till tomorrow.....uh, i mean, next year..

You're still wrong.
If god knew which they would pick (i.e. it was, from the very start, a FACT) then they could NOT choose other than what was predicted, or god would have been wrong.

please stop saying "you're wrong", it's annoying when you just state it that simply, show how one is wrong, instead of just saying so.

ok, let's do this another way;
they could not choose the other choice, granted, but they didn't know that, so it makesno difference to the choice making, or does it?

No, choice is not a state of mind and not knowing is NOT identical to actually having a choice.

ha ha yes it is show me how it's not without just "saying so"

they couldn't have, but they didn't know that, so they can't run away from responsibility, their excuse doesn't hold.

You just said it: "they couldn't have". If they couldn't have then how can THEY be held responsible?

they couldn't have, but they didn't know that, so they can't run away from responsibility, their excuse doesn't hold.

you do understand why i lost my temper don't you? how's this done seventy times in one thread not be counted as trolling?

So just stick to the logic.

lol

Not even close.
In the first case it is a fact that the parents are his (biological) parents, in the second, it's false.

just like a choice is a choice in a godlessworld and a choice is not a choice in a goddy world,no?


apart from this:

Still wrong.

you've pretty much put your finger on it here:

Put it this way, even though we don't know, CAN we we pick the "other" one?
If god knows we'll pick A, could we pick B? Is it at all possible for us to pick B?
Note this isn't about "do we think we can pick B" it's "could we, under any circumstances whatsoever, pick B"?

if we think we have choice, we have choice, whether you like it or not!
why?
because we can never be sure!!

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr

A statement that our bodies limit our choices.

It does.

A directly contradictory statement that our bodies do not impede our choices.

That's right despite our limitations, we still have free will.

CON-TEXT.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

You gave two definitions.
The first defined the word destine, the second word was destiny..
"Destiny", does not require consciousness as an agent.

That would be because "destiny" is directly related to "destine" as previously stated.
One is a noun, the other a verb.

des·ti·ny...
to destine, from Latin dstinre, to determine
[from Old French destinee, from destiner to destine]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/destiny

That is not the question I asked; why don't you pay attention?

Post #208 was mine.
So the question was "If God has perfect knowledge and intelligence, how he be unsure of anything?"
Which I DID answer: "so god does know". And directly after your question (in post #200 - just for future reference) you ALSO stated "If the person hasn't chosen, then there is nothing to know with regard to choosing what hasn't been chosen" which implies that he doesn't know (what will be chosen).

I've been saying all along if the question has not arised, the person will not have to make a choice for a question that has not arised. This means there is no choice for the person to make, hence there is nothing to know. If the question does arise, and the person is faced with making a choice, then the choice can be known by God.

So god will know, (if the question arises) before we choose? But he won't know IF the situation will arise?
Hardly omniscient.

God will know anything that can be known, that is omniscience.
The notion of knowing something that is non-existence is illogical, what to speak of silly.

So god does and also doesn't know what we will choose?
He does know because he knows everything us that can be known and he doesn't know because, according to you, you cannot know what will be chosen.

Yes, everything that CAN be known.

So you're claiming that it cannot be known BEFORE we choose?
Yet you also state: "If the question does arise, and the person is faced with making a choice, then the choice can be known by God."
So he can know?

I didn't say God cannot know that the question will arise.
I said if the question doesn't arise, then there is nothing to know.

You're missing the point.

Hence my question to you;
How is it possible to have knowledge of something that doesn'st exist?

Presumably if I knew that I'd be god. It isn't my claim that god is omniscient.

I don't get your point.

You have claimed that god will know what we'll choose if we arrive at decision point (between A and B, for example), but that he doesn't know IF we'll arrive at that point. Somewhat contradictory.
In other words, he'll know something as simple as "cake or ice cream", but he won't know which we'll pick if the choice is "Restaurant or bookshop".

From scriptoral accounts it is understood that God accompanies every living entity within the heart, and knows every single detail of that LE from the begining of time.

So god knows every single detail about us but he doesn't know whether or not we will at some point be faced with a choice between ice cream and cake. But he will know beforehand, (before the choice is made, before the decision exists), what that decision will be.
You're back to contradicting yourself again.

You're just wasting my time, aren't you.

Nope, you're wasting everyone's: I'm rapidly realising that you don't have a single clue as to what you actually mean.
Get back to me when you learn how to stop contradicting yourself.

 

[Dywyddyr]

It does.
That's right despite our limitations, we still have free will.
CON-TEXT.

Doubletalk.
Jan 1: [Is our free-will limited in any way.???] Yes, our bodies. (post #195)
Free will is limited by our bodies.

Jan 2: Free will is the ability to make your own choices. The limitation of the body doesn't impede that. (Post #198)
Free will is not limited by our bodies.

There is no "context". Free is and is not limited by our bodies (according to you).
If free will is not limited by our bodies then (given the limitations of our bodies) what do we actually have? Nearly free will? Slightly free will? Vaguely free will with cherries?

Your own definition

Originally Posted by Jan Ardena
The ability to choose of your own mind.

Post #173 is pretty categorical.

 

[scifes]

uh, i'm just saying jan, that what "we" believe is: "god knows what happened, what is happening, what will happen, and what didn't happen if it did happen how would it happen (turn out)".
but by your definition it would be easy, omnipotence doesn't include knowledge of the future, so we're free to choose..
but then we know our choices and god doesn't? :scratchin?

 

[Dywyddyr]

but by your definition it would be easy, omnipotence doesn't include knowledge of the future, so we're free to choose..
but then we know our choices and god doesn't? :scratchin?

No, we don't know either.
(Until we've decided that is).

 

[scifes]

gee D, give the guy/gal a break, our bodies restrict some of our will, and does not restrict some of our other will, just think about it.
stop standing on shaky ground, (s)he told you it's about context, and i'm too lazy to look for your contradictions in the previous 11 pages of text, mind you.

 

[scifes]

No, we don't know either.
(Until we've decided that is).

then (S)he wins!!:yay:
:roflmao:
lol, that was easier than i thought..

god is omnipotent (by that definition),no one knows our choice, we're free.

 

[Dywyddyr]

lit was preordained they'd "choose" their choice, you'll never change that even if you keep trying from today till tomorrow.....uh, i mean, next year..

If so then they could not "choose" differently.

please stop saying "you're wrong", it's annoying when you just state it that simply, show how one is wrong, instead of just saying so.

You said it yourself, above: if it was pre-ordained then nothing can/ or could change it.

ok, let's do this another way;
they could not choose the other choice, granted, but they didn't know that, so it makesno difference to the choice making, or does it?

If you CAN'T choose the other one how is there a real choice?
If god knows for a fact that you WILL have ice cream how can you possibly pick cake?

ha ha yes it is show me how it's not without just "saying so"

What?
If there really is a choice then we can pick the other one, if the choice is illusory the no matter what we think we cannot pick anything other than the one that's pre-ordained.

You just said it: "they couldn't have". If they couldn't have then how can THEY be held responsible?

Um, that was MY point. You said "so they can't run away from responsibility, their excuse doesn't hold.".
If you cannot choose anything other what is pre-ordained (take the bribe for example) then how can you be held responsible?

you do understand why i lost my temper don't you? how's this done seventy times in one thread not be counted as trolling?

You quote yourself and claim it's trolling? Nice one.

just like a choice is a choice in a godlessworld and a choice is not a choice in a goddy world,no?

If god knows what we're going to do before we do it then we MUST do it (otherwise god will be wrong). If god exists and actually is omniscient then we are following a script with no options whatsoever. Despite appearances.

if we think we have choice, we have choice, whether you like it or not!
why?
because we can never be sure!!

It doesn't matter what we think, it doesn't matter that we "aren't sure"*: we have a script to follow (a script that is written in stone). We can believe we have choices but whatever we pick is already written.

* If god exists and is omniscient it's also written that we will be "unsure". But we aren't we're just "robots"following a programme that WE are unaware of.

 

[Dywyddyr]

then (S)he wins!!:yay:
:roflmao:
lol, that was easier than i thought..
god is omnipotent (by that definition),no one knows our choice, we're free.

You really should learn to read better:

but by your definition it would be easy, omnipotence doesn't include knowledge of the future, so we're free to choose..
but then we know our choices and god doesn't? :scratchin?

So you want to redefine "omniscience"?
God is not "all knowing"?
Go ahead, see how far you get telling the major religions that god doesn't know.

And FYI it isn't a win, since the OP referred to Cris's thread and that thread was specifically about the attribute of "omniscience" including foreknowledge.
If that argument (and this one) had been in any way about omniscience NOT including foreknowledge then it wouldn't have gone of the way it has.

The OP:
"If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born
Post #2
If the results are known beforehand then they are pre-ordained
Get the point?
The thread is about foreknowledge.

gee D, give the guy/gal a break, our bodies restrict some of our will, and does not restrict some of our other will, just think about it.

In other words one of his definitions of what free will is was wrong?
Either "free will" itself has limitations or we don't have free will but a limited sub-set of it.

stop standing on shaky ground, (s)he told you it's about context, and i'm too lazy to look for your contradictions in the previous 11 pages of text, mind you.

Context nothing.
If free will is the ability to choose of your own mind then physical attributes curtail some of that free will: i.e. we don't all have it.
If free will is "being able to do anything within the capabilities of your mind AND body" then we all have differing degrees of freedom.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

will sometimes overcomes temptation, and sometimes doesn't.

Do you consider it a flaw in you'r character that you continualy choose to sin.???

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Origionaly posted by Jan
Free will is the ability to make your own choices.

As far as the mind is concerned, I don't eknow what level of impairment it would have to reach, to be beyond the ability of free-will, if indeed there is such a level.

For esample:::

Does an insane person deserve punishment (by God) if they (mistakenly of course) hear God tell them to kill ther children so the Devil cant harm them... an then in fact sin by killin ther children.???

Ever detale of our existence hapens the way it does because of the way we was specificaly designed by God... God knew befor we was even borned that we woud pick "A" (not "B")... ie... we was programed by God to pick "A"... our lives unfold as if they were a movie on film... an no mater how many times the movie of our life was re-wound an played bak... we woud pick "A" ever time.!!!

Do you agree wit that.???


God created you an you'r inviroment... he created it in such a way that you will behave in a particular way... ie... you can not behave in a way that devates from Gods plan.!!! ”

“ The problem is, we think we can. ”

Please give an esample of that so i mite beter understan what you mean.!!!

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Well Scifies... you agree that God created humans wit the inability to choose anythang other than what they was programed to choose... but because they didnt know the game was rigged they shoud still be held acountable for ther actions.!!!

To me... i likein it to intentonally breedin a blind short-legged dog... an then enterin it in a race wit long legged dogs... an then punishin it because it lost the race.!!!

We agree that free-will is an illusion... our disagrement boils down to morals... you thank its moral that God punishes people who he intentionaly designed in such a way that guranteed falure... i dont.!!!

 

[swivel]

If god knows then we are not and cannot be free to choose.

Sure we can be. Keep in mind that I'm an atheist and I'm arguing hypotheticals, here. We can posit a god that knows the universe's entire timeline. We could go either way on all dichotomous decisions, but to god, those decisions have already been made. They are in the past, to him.

The confusion comes from the implausibility of reproducible randomness. This is the same thing that makes sports spectators superstitious. The thinking goes like this: a basketball game is full of so many random events (bounce of a ball, flick of a wrist, twisted ankle, etc...). The spectator at home thinks everything they do somehow influences that distant sporting event. Why? Because, if left to run all over again, there's no conceivable way it would turn out the same way twice. This irreproducibility (to coin a term) fools one into thinking the dash to the fridge caused the fumble. No way in the world that fumble could happen the same way twice if left to play out all over again. Me not going to the fridge is a second run-through. Therefore my run to the fridge altered distant events.

Same fallacy is made in arguments of predestination. I choose A. God knows I was gonna choose A. But now I wanna argue I chose B. God knowing means my choices are limited, he won't let it play out one more time. This time I won't fumble. Etc...

The argument I'm making is that we only get one chance to choose. One time for each decision. That decision is free, but that doesn't mean it can be "seen," then played out a second time with a different outcome. We are able to choose ahead of time, given our capacity to be fickle, and god, like some oracle, knows what we're gonna do.

If it makes it easier to understand, look at god's foreknowledge as being no different than you or I watching someone make a decision. Now that they made it, could they have done otherwise? Sure. Did they do otherwise? Nope. Does that mean they weren't free? Not enough evidence to say either way. Now, imagine god "sees" our decisions one picosecond before we make it. Or one year. Or one million. That ability to see the future shouldn't get us tied up on the argument. It's a hypothetical sense, like smelling colors.

One more thing to clarify: in addition to not believing in any sort of god, I also do not believe in free will. Not one ounce. So I'm not arguing from the heart, here, or from a position of belief. Just looking at logical consistencies within hypothetical systems.

Cheers.

 

[Dywyddyr]

We could go either way on all dichotomous decisions, but to god, those decisions have already been made. They are in the past, to him.

Exactly: they are irretrievably fixed.

The confusion comes from the implausibility of reproducible randomness.

If god knows everything there is no randomness: it's a fixed script - the only randomness is in our perceptions of it.

Same fallacy is made in arguments of predestination. I choose A. God knows I was gonna choose A. But now I wanna argue I chose B. God knowing means my choices are limited, he won't let it play out one more time. This time I won't fumble. Etc...

Not quite.
The word "know" itself means that something is true (if it's not a true then you don't know something you simply believe it).
If it's true that you will choose ice cream then it cannot (ever) be false. If it is at all possible to know (infallibly) the future that means the future is fixed and no choices are )or ever will be) possible.

The argument I'm making is that we only get one chance to choose. One time for each decision. That decision is free, but that doesn't mean it can be "seen," then played out a second time with a different outcome. We are able to choose ahead of time, given our capacity to be fickle, and god, like some oracle, knows what we're gonna do.

Again it comes back to the word "know". If there's any possibility that we could do other than what god says (knows) we will do then god didn't have knowledge in the first place: merely a good guess (or list of probable outcomes).

If it makes it easier to understand, look at god's foreknowledge as being no different than you or I watching someone make a decision. Now that they made it, could they have done otherwise? Sure. Did they do otherwise? Nope.

No, see above: if god knows beforehand (and don't forget the claim is that god knows everything from the start - even from before you're born, not just a picosecond before you choose) then we cannot choose anything other than what god said we would.

Have you read Cris's original thread? This one assumes that most participants have, so you may not have realised the underlying definitions/ assumptions of the argument. (If you have, my apologies).

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

But he won't know IF the situation will arise?
Hardly omniscient.

Stop shifting the goalposts.

If something is non-existent, what is there to know?

So you're claiming that it cannot be known BEFORE we choose?

Please answer the above question?

You're missing the point.

No, you're missing the point.
Please answer the question?

Presumably if I knew that I'd be god. It isn't my claim that god is omniscient.

That is not an answer.
Please answer the question?

So god knows every single detail about us but he doesn't know whether or not we will at some point be faced with a choice between ice cream and cake.

You said; "The choice of "ice cream or cake" arrives because of an earlier choice..."
That being the case, would that experience not be etched into the fabric of the person character?

Please answer the question raised?

Thanks in advance
jan

 

[Jan Ardena]

uh, i'm just saying jan, that what "we" believe is: "god knows what happened, what is happening, what will happen, and what didn't happen if it did happen how would it happen (turn out)".
but by your definition it would be easy, omnipotence doesn't include knowledge of the future, so we're free to choose..
but then we know our choices and god doesn't? :scratchin?

Are you asking yourself how God knows these things?
Or you falling into the trap by assuming God just happens to know everything
without the process of knowledge, meaning knowledge is something other than
the process needed to obtain it.

God doesn't guess, God KNOWS. That means, like anyone else, He has a process of obtaining knowledge. That God's knowledge is perfect doesn't mean He doesn't think, or work things out. It means that His process of knowledge is perfect.
So ask yourself, How does God know what will happen in OUR FUTURE.
Guessing is not complete knowledge, so please try not to go there?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/guess

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Stop shifting the goalposts.
If something is non-existent, what is there to know?

So god does not know what we will choose?
Hardly "shifting the goalposts" this is part of the definition of omniscinece.

Please answer the above question?

So you're claiming that knowing what we will do when given a choice is not possible? Even for god?

You said; "The choice of "ice cream or cake" arrives because of an earlier choice..."
That being the case, would that experience not be etched into the fabric of the person character?

Beside the point: that, too, was a "choice". Did god not know the result of that choice before it was made?

Jan you're squirming again.
Does god know what we will choose before we choose it?

Let's take this one, though: I'll answer it the way I see it.

If something is non-existent, what is there to know?

Unless the future is fixed then it is not possible to know.
From which it also follows that each and every prediction in the bible is bunk. The bible contains so many claims of "what WILL happen", and here you are, denying that claim is valid. In your own words, if it hasn't happened yet there's nothing to know.
Which is, as usual, avoiding the point.

You have also claimed, many times (in one form or another):

[If a]person is faced with making a choice, then the choice can be known by God.

So I'll ask you your own question: since the choice hasn't been made until it IS made, how can god know what the person will decide? Bearing in mind that, as the final decision is non-existent until it's made, then there is nothing to know.

So we're back, again. to: Does god know before you choose what you will choose?
Yes or no?
(And please, this time give an answer and stick to it).

 

[Dywyddyr]

That God's knowledge is perfect doesn't mean He doesn't think, or work things out. It means that His process of knowledge is perfect.

No it doesn't.
If god has to work something out that would mean he didn't know it at some point, and would therefore not be omniscient (by definition).

If god is omniscient there can be no process of acquiring knowledge since acquisition of anything means that it was lacking in the first place.
Omniscience means that god knows because he simply knows.

 

[Jan Ardena]

cluelusshusbund,

Does an insane person deserve punishment (by God) if they (mistakenly of course) hear God tell them to kill ther children so the Devil cant harm them... an then in fact sin by killin ther children.???

Those kind of situations are seriously complex, more complex than we
are lead to believe. There is no way I could answer something like that.

we was programed by God to pick "A"...

Explain how you know or believe this

Do you agree wit that.???

I agree that we are part machine (biological) and as such, that part
is programmed by the laws which govern nature.
But I believe we are a part of God who has free will, meaning we have
free will also.

[/quote]God created you an you'r inviroment... he created it in such a way that you will behave in a particular way... ie... you can not behave in a way that devates from Gods plan.!!! ” [/quote]

The problem is, we think we can.

Please give an esample of that so i mite beter understan what you mean.!!![/QUOTE]

Just take a look at the world we live in.

jan.