"proof that the christian god can't exist, debunked"

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by Rav
God had a plan...

He was in a position to ensure that the overall outcome was what He wanted it to be.

...He knew how His overall relationship with man was going to turn out...

...He understood man and because He interceded at critical points to keep things heading in the desired direction.

Sinse God created a situaton which woudnt allow him to know the specific detales of what humans woud do... you clame that means they had free-will... but God knew esactly what type of misery the flawed nature of the humans he intentionaly chose to create woud cause... an he knew esacly what the end result woud be because he interceds to keep thangs on track... so how is God not the cause of all the misery in the world... an how is he not also responsible that hell will be over-flowin wit people who will be tortured for eternity.???

Yes God had a plan... a plan which you argue gave humans free-will... but whare is the free-will when Gods plan made it inevitable that millions of children had no choise but to suffer such horrors as bein raped/mureered... starve to death... ect.???

How is that monstrous plan consistent wit the idea that God is a lovin father.???

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

If you define omniscience as the capacity to know anything and everything, I don't think it means that God isn't omniscient.

You're saying that theists must accept the fact that God knows how to not know, or better yet make it happen. By doing so they will eliminate the arguments against Gods omniscience. In a similar vein, all the omni's are susceptible to a similar condition. In this way God remains omni-everything.

This is religion's fine print, the disclaimer. God made us in such a way that He would not know what we would do. He can give us rules to live by but ultimately He won't know if we will obey them.....something like that.

Since this is a Christian related thread I will go back to the same question I asked Jan....was it our free will or God's will that killed Christ? Why would God impose rules when he doesn't know if we will obey them and then when we don't, come running for payment for a debt that the disobeying produces? How would He know we would kill Christ or was He only hoping? What would He have done if we didn't? Why get angry with us if we screw up? Does god play dice with the cosmos?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by Rav
God had a plan...

He was in a position to ensure that the overall outcome was what He wanted it to be.

...He knew how His overall relationship with man was going to turn out...
both because He understood man and because He interceded at critical points to keep things heading in the desired direction.

Heres an esample of what you clame is Gods idea of free-will:::

God creates a puppy wit no legs an pitches it in the middle of a pond... but God has not allowed hisself to know if the puppy will be able to wiggle its way out of the pond or not... thar-for the puppy has free-will... but God does know what he wants the outcom to be... which is for the puppy to drownd... so God checks in ever now an then to see how the puppy is doin... an if it looks like the puppy is gonna be able to wiggle to safety... God will interceed an shove the puppys head under the water.... but it ant Gods fault that the pupppy drowned cause the puppy had free-will.!!!

 

[scifes]

Relax, I wasn't knocking it. I think it's great that somebody finally said it. Theists avoid that bit of logic like the plague. Of course it's the only way, meaning God isn't omniscient as theists claim.

where did the plural "s" in the theistS come from? didn't you quote him saying he's speaking for himself?? that he's no spokesperson to no theism?

is he still what you've been waiting for so long?
god is omniscient and we have free will, i dare you show me a logical contradiction.

 

[Rav]

how is God not the cause of all the misery in the world...

God does allow misery, pain and suffering to exist, there is no doubt about that. Profoundly terrible things happen in the world on a daily basis, and if I was God, I'd want to put a stop to all of it. There's no way that I could just sit there and watch it. But just because we have a moral or ethical objection to what He allows to happen is not an argument against His existence. There's no particular reason that I can think of that God's existence requires Him to do what we think He should do. I'm certainly not going to argue that you or anyone else should embrace Christianity or any other religion. I'm not a religious person myself. I'm simply throwing around some ideas to try to get people thinking and maybe I'm also here because I hate seeing people ridiculed for believing in something that could, possibly, be at least partially true.

How is that monstrous plan consistent wit the idea that God is a lovin father.???

Maybe it's not. But again, having issues with who God is and how He's chosen to interact with man is not an argument against His existence. It's more of a reason to simply dislike Him. Like you, I have issues with Christianity. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I have issues with the idea of God in general. I'm not sure exactly who or what God is, and I'm not even 100% sure if any kind of God even exists. I'm in the thick of the forest, trying to figure out what's what. Part of that process involves becoming deeply invested in exploring possibilities. I find the process extremely valuable as even if you end up rejecting an idea, you've gained new insight along the way. Everything you do and everything you think about, even every mistake you make and every time you make a fool out of yourself, you've gained something.

 

[Rav]

Since this is a Christian related thread I will go back to the same question I asked Jan....was it our free will or God's will that killed Christ? Why would God impose rules when he doesn't know if we will obey them and then when we don't, come running for payment for a debt that the disobeying produces? How would He know we would kill Christ or was He only hoping? What would He have done if we didn't? Why get angry with us if we screw up?

I can't really continue with our discussion because it's about to head right into the thick of Christian theology. I find it interesting to discuss at times having had some experience with it in the past, but I don't really want to take up the cause of trying to demonstrate that what we learn about God in the Bible should make sense to everyone. I'm more interested in philosophy than theology these days. Besides, because I'm not a Christian, I'd be playing devil's advocate a lot of the time.

I'm happy to respond to anything that directly calls into question the possibility of the existence of God, but if it's about who He is, I'm going to have to leave that to others.

Does god play dice with the cosmos?

I used to defend Einstein on this point. I once believed that it was arrogant to suggest that he was wrong because I believed that even in the probabilistic world of Quantum Mechanics, and underlying order might emerge that was beyond the scope of our current understanding. The more I learned and the more I thought about it however, the more I became convinced that he was indeed wrong. God does play dice with the cosmos. But it is not without a measure of control.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
how is God not the cause of all the misery in the world...

God does allow misery, pain and suffering to exist, there is no doubt about that.

It seems that you agree... that but for God... ther woudnt be misery pane an sufferin.!!!

Profoundly terrible things happen in the world on a daily basis, and if I was God, I'd want to put a stop to all of it. There's no way that I could just sit there and watch it.

So it seems in you'r opinion... Gods plan is that of a monster insted of a lovin father.!!!

But just because we have a moral or ethical objection to what He allows to happen is not an argument against His existence.

I agree wit that... but for God to esist acordin to human morals he woud be a monster insted of a lovin father.!!!

I'm not a religious person myself. I'm simply throwing around some ideas to try to get people thinking and maybe I'm also here because I hate seeing people ridiculed for believing in something that could, possibly, be at least partially true. Maybe it's not.

Yes i ant religious ether... an i like ideas bein throwed aroun like you'r doin... an i "hate" seein people "believe" wit-out at leas applyin som critical thankin.!!!

But again, having issues with who God is and how He's chosen to interact with man is not an argument against His existence. It's more of a reason to simply dislike Him. Like you, I have issues with Christianity. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I have issues with the idea of God in general.

Yes well this thred is about the Christan God... an id be hapy to discuss you'r particular beleifs concernin the issue of this thred... but you wont say what they are.!!!

I'm not sure exactly who or what God is, and I'm not even 100% sure if any kind of God even exists
I'm in the thick of the forest, trying to figure out what's what.

Well that coud esplane why you wont discuss what you'r beleifs are (if you have any) concernin this thred.!!!

Part of that process involves becoming deeply invested in exploring possibilities. I find the process extremely valuable as even if you end up rejecting an idea, you've gained new insight along the way. Everything you do and everything you think about, even every mistake you make and every time you make a fool out of yourself, you've gained something.

Good pont... but i thank its mor fruitful to base ones exploraton on logical posibilities than desired beleifs.!!!

 

[Rav]

Like I said, I just don't want to get too heavily into the whole moral side of this debate. I wont enjoy it. I hope you can accept that.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Like I said, I just don't want to get too heavily into the whole moral side of this debate. I wont enjoy it. I hope you can accept that.

oK(???)... but Im not sure if that was directed to my line of questons or not... but mayb it will be mor clear to me dependin on how you reply to this post.???

Origionaly posted by Rav
I have issues with Christianity. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I have issues with the idea of God in general.

Do you find comfort in the idea of ther bein a God... an if so... why.???

I'm not sure exactly who or what God is, and I'm not even 100% sure if any kind of God even exists. I'm in the thick of the forest, trying to figure out what's what.

The arguments you present seem intent on justifyin Gods monstrous behavior (as juged by human morals) as actualy bein good... can you except the idea that God (if "he" esists) may be jus as he apears to be... a monster.???

Part of that process involves becoming deeply invested in exploring possibilities.

What do you mean by "deeply invested"... what does it require in the context you mentoned.???

 

[Doreen]

Originally Posted by PsychoticEpisode
I am aware of that but the thread title specifically refers to the Christian God.

Yes, but you said theists. Why didn't you say Christians?

I am really getting tired of you not taking responsibility for the unclear ways you communicate.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

Yes, but you said theists. Why didn't you say Christians?

I am really getting tired of you not taking responsibility for the unclear ways you communicate.

At the time nobody was paying any attention to the thread title. Yes I was guilty of saying theists too but no one as far as I know was singling out Christians. Unfortunately the thread title specifically talks of Christians. Since we were off topic I thought it would be a good idea to get back on it.

For the sake of argument we could assign theist to mean Christian in this case as that is the thread's intention. Take it one step further and no other religion is being considered at this time. Would you be happy with that?

 

[Rav]

Do you find comfort in the idea of ther bein a God... an if so... why.???

If we're talking about the Christian God here (since there is a concerted effort to get this thread back on topic) then the answer is no. The concept of God as is presented in the Bible makes me decidedly uncomfortable. If I believed it, I wouldn't find any solace at all in the idea of eternal life because I wouldn't be able to stop thinking about all of the decent people I know who will be condemned to eternal suffering just because they had exercised the free will that God had given them and decided to live a different life. We're not talking about murderers, rapists and pedophiles here, we're talking about people I have always been able to count on. Decent people who I respect. They are not perfect, but God's punishment is so profoundly unjustified that I'd be more likely to say "Fuck you you vindictive arsehole" and be condemned to Hell with them.

The arguments you present seem intent on justifyin Gods monstrous behavior (as juged by human morals) as actualy bein good... can you except the idea that God (if "he" esists) may be jus as he apears to be... a monster.???

I don't see how you can interpret any of my comments that way.

What do you mean by "deeply invested"... what does it require in the context you mentoned.???

I mean devoting a significant amount of time and mental energy to properly exploring possibilities. I mean wrestling ideas into focus and making a concerted effort to look into things more deeply and for longer than most people typically do. I mean fully submerging yourself within a framework of reasoning that you might normally automatically reject because of your preconceived notions. I don't understand why people are so unwilling to do this because there's a lot to learn and it's the only way to properly understand something. I can guarantee you that you'll walk away with something valuable even if you didn't ultimately change your mind. A lot of people are scared of wasting too much time getting invested in something that they think is bullshit, but what they don't realize is that the process teaches you more than you'd learn by stubbornly sticking to your guns. All knowledge enhances all other knowledge. You learn and you grow and you evolve and you ultimately become a better thinker which further enhances the fruitfulness of the process.

Something like that.

 

[GuessWhoTimmySue]

Dear Clueluss One

I can see all of my prayers for you have paid off. You're much less angry these days. Hal-lay-loo-ya!

 

[cluelusshusbund]

I can see all of my prayers for you have paid off. You're much less angry these days. Hal-lay-loo-ya!

Well i ant necesarly sayin you'r prayers was wortless... lol... but this is a highly regulated moderated censored groop... people dont get atacked here... so thers no need for me to kick idiot-azz

Hmmm... so you prayed for me... who coud you be... Susie... Carrol... Wanda... Bill... Carl... Stan... Fluffy Cloud... Jesus... Fred... Lewis... well anyhow... you get the pitcher... i have been prayed for by many so i dont know who you are... but welcom to the groop mystery person

A-Man.TTT

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Do you find comfort in the idea of ther bein a God... an if so... why.??? ”

If we're talking about the Christian God here...

Not necesarly... im talkin about whatever God(s) you mite thank esists... me havin a basic knowledge of that mite help me to beter understan you'r positon in this thred.!!!

The arguments you present seem intent on justifyin Gods monstrous behavior (as juged by human morals) as actualy bein good... can you except the idea that God (if "he" esists) may be jus as he apears to be... a monster.??? ”

I don't see how you can interpret any of my comments that way.

Well... sinse this thred is about the Christan God i asumed you was arguein in favor of the Holey-bible God... but wit the new informaton you have provided im understandin you'r positon beter.!!!

What do you mean by "deeply invested"... what does it require in the context you mentoned.??? ”

I mean fully submerging yourself within a framework of reasoning that you might normally automatically reject because of your preconceived notions.

I don't understand why people are so unwilling to do this because there's a lot to learn and it's the only way to properly understand something.

A lot of people are scared of wasting too much time getting invested in something that they think is bullshit, but what they don't realize is that the process teaches you more than you'd learn by stubbornly sticking to your guns. All knowledge enhances all other knowledge. You learn and you grow and you evolve and you ultimately become a better thinker which further enhances the fruitfulness of the process.

I dont have any big argument wit that.. a closed mind is a wasted mind... an ive only read a few of you'r posts but you seem open-minded to other posibilities in you'r discussons... but even you surly have a limits on how much time you will spend on certan "Bullsht" ideas... an i suspect the mane diference between us is... i filter out mor stuff than you do.!!!