"proof that the christian god can't exist, debunked"

[Dywyddyr]

what if i showed you over and over and over and you'd still won't agree? as i have did?
re read our debate from the start and tell me how many times i've displayed it.[

Wrong: you simply go so far along the chain of logic and then declare that it doesn't follow in this case. Without showing why.

i have showed, more than once, and requested that you show in return, more than once, and you've ignored, each and every one.

I have shown - the simple chain of logic.

and i warn you from making claims like these, less than 5 posts ago you were declaring i promised you an answer and didn't provide it, it's too soon to be repeating your mistake.

Your "answer" turned out to be "we can choose differently, but we don't".
No answer at all.

if i had a mistake in this, it's that i was so concerned of avoiding ad homs that i let you run loose, ad hom is using info about the debater to win something in a debate, if anything, i've lost much in this debate because of info i have about my debater.

Ad hom is making a personal attack to deflect the argument. And so far your "avoidance of making them" has been:
"your tactics are even a bit similar to theirs [woo woos] now"
"want me to get you a cab to the asylum?"
"what a troll you turned out to be" etc...

yes god does, and for god we're like a movie seen by him a billion times, our so called "choices are meaningless"
but for us, choices are choices.

Again, that's what I have been saying: our choices seem like choices for us, but they aren't.
Does the phrase "following a script" ring a bell?
I said that way back in post #2.

and because of that, we are held for the consequences.

We are held to the consequences because we follow a script written by god?

well it's been there for some time, when will my message reach you?

Please note: I am NOT here at your beck and call - I've been out with friends. At least grant me the same consideration I give you - that you are free to post as and when you wish.
Assuming this is the question

what is choice than to think we have a choice?

then the answer should be as obvious to you as it is to me.
To actually have the choice.

i've asked a root question about this in the previous post, if you answer honestly, you'll get what i mean.

I have, how does that help you?

and here you declare that i don't have the potential of bringing a proper refutation, why did you say yes you're aware of the possibility of being wrong then before? eh?

For the simple reason that if you come up with anything that actually does show me to be wrong I will acknowledge it.

you said this a thousand times, and the point is, you never had a point for neither me nor you nor anyone to prove. your point is that none of us have a point, you morph into the opposite of what one says, you're anti-woo woo, you become anti-sense when woo woo come up with sense.

Waffle.

and you are a 100% correct, we can NEVER change what god intended us to be, but not knowing WHAT god intended us to be, we can choose.

You're contradicting yourself.
It doesn't matter if we don't know. You said it yourself: we can only choose what we were intended to choose, the "other options" are illusory since we cannot pick them.

one who is born atheist doesn't know if god "constructed" him to be an atheist-muslim convertee, or an atheist-christian-convertee, or an atheist all along to the grave.
so he can choose, and that choice would turn out to be what he was constructed to be, as i've said, 179 posts ago, that:

If he "chooses" what he was constructed to be then he didn't choose - he had no alternative.

but for one who forgot 78 posts back, one who appearantly didn't read #101 and demanded it's contents, it's understandable.

Wrong again.
I read and it wasn't an answer.
If we can choose otherwise then it could not be known infallibly that we will.
In other words: if we have choice (real choice) then god is not all-knowing.

 

[Dywyddyr]

And I almost missed this one from Jan:

If God has perfect knowledge, then His process of calculation is also perfect.
If His calculation is perfect, then He can calculate the future. Isn't that a more likely understanding of God's knowledge than "i guess he must be omniscient because that's just his nature.

Post #115
A somewhat self-defeating argument.
If god has perfect knowledge why would he do a calculation?
A calculation is something that is performed in order to ascertain the result/ answer.
Either god already knows the answer and doesn't need to do the calculation or he's capable of "perfect calculation" but doesn't already know what the result is going to be - i.e. he is not omniscient.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Nearly forgot this:

atheists are rarely correct, and when they reach potentially correct conclusions, they make the wrong choices.

Which translates as: yes, I admit (tacitly) that I can't actually give any valid reasoning as to why you're wrong, but you're an atheist so it's okay for me to ignore the logic.

 

[scifes]

loooool..:roflmao:
i haven't laughed from my heart this hard before..let's just forget this D, i'm ready to, hope you are too.. somethings are more important than others..

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Hay Scifes... Did God know that Adam an Eve woud sin even befor he created 'em.???

yes he did.

is he at fault for the choice they made?

How was it ther choise when they was designed in such a way that them sinnin was inevitable.???

...to look at things the other way- :
they made the choice, is god at fault for it for creating them?

God rigged the "game" for a specific out-com (that Adam an Eve woud sin)... so how is it the fault of Adam an Eve that they sined.???

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
“ God created you an you'r inviroment... he created it in such a way that you will behave in a particular way... ie... you can not behave in a way that devates from Gods plan.!!! ”

The problem is, we think we can.
Jan

Please give an esample of that so i mite beter understan what you mean.!!!

 

[Dywyddyr]

loooool..:roflmao:
i haven't laughed from my heart this hard before..let's just forget this D

Since you've shown yourself to be intellectually dishonest (in more ways than one) there seems to be no point carrying on.
I take it that you mean "Let me (Scifes) forget it, because then I can pretend I didn't fail".

somethings are more important than others..

One of the "more important things" being, from the evidence, maintaining your belief while continuing to also believe you're capable of following (and understanding) a logical argument.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Quite: so what exactly is the force or agency (which I have previously stated is required for it to be destiny)

Material nature.

And the unsureness (as you said) is in the calculation: in other words it's a probabilistic result, not a definitive "This is what will be selected"

The unsureness is part of the overall character of the person.
God knows the persons character, and the reason for who and what
they are at that particular moment in time.

Er, which (of the "options") will be chosen? You really aren't following this at all are you?

I've explained all this, why are you bringing it back.
The person will choose, based on the entirety of his being, at that moment.

Once the choice has been made no calculation is required.

We make choices all the time, and the decisions we make form the
fabric of our character and personality. in this life.
Knowing what we will do next through process of calculation must be pretty tedious.
I used the term "calculation" to specifically show how knowing the outcome of a persons choice could occurr without influencing the free will. But I can't imagine God spending His time calculating the future movements of each living entity.

They could have picked B if they wanted to, but, they chose A.

So god doesn't know what we're going to pick?

It doesn't matter what we decide as we ourselves have set the path, full
of reasons, as to what we will choose.
If I love ice cream, but not very fond of rhubarb pie, given the choice of the
two, I will go for the thing I want, and anyone who knows me would know that.

No, you handwaved round it.

I don't think you know how to deal with my explanation.

You also said
Effectively: if I can't see your point I'm not being serious.

And I'm right.
Debunk my point if you're serious, instead of going round circles.

Following the chain of reasoning given at the end of my reply to Scifes I can (because that's what was, obviously, intended by god) give you no further time until you have shown me conclusively that you have understood the question.

Has it ever occured to you that you don't understand the answer.

I can't hold you responsible for engaging (at length) in discussing a topic about which you have now shown yourself to have almost zero comprehension, because that, too, (by Scifes' logic) was what you were intended to do.

D, this question, and this so-called paradox is easy to understand, and answer. I get the feeling you have been caught off guard.
Feel free to pull the plug whenever you're ready, because I don't think you
have any comebacks.

Once again I can only wonder (because, presumably, I was intended to) at the things god finds worthwhile to have us do.

Are you a theist?

Yet you, personally, feel you're qualified to talk about some of his characteristics.

So do you.

God has no limits.

If he has no limits what makes you think you're capable of saying anything meaningful about god at all?

Because I am infinitesimally part and parcel of God, as are you,
and every living entity.
Don't you just feel warm and tingly inside?

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

If god has perfect knowledge why would he do a calculation?

Because His calculation would be perfect.

A calculation is something that is performed in order to ascertain the result/ answer.

And His answer would be perfect, hence the term "perfect knowledge".

Either god already knows the answer and doesn't need to do the calculation or he's capable of "perfect calculation" but doesn't already know what the result is going to be - i.e. he is not omniscient.

We calculate all the time, even when we don't think we're calculating.
Calculation is a part of existence.
eg. take something simple like eating, how many calculations do you think it takes to eat a banana, or a piece of cake.
But we don't have to stop and ponder about it.

jan.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Scifies
...ask any sinner in this world, was he able not to sin? ask me, and i'd tell you yes i can, when i choose to sin i do sin, and when i choose not to i don't..temptation plays a role, but in the end no one forces me.

What causes you to continue to choose to sin.???

 

[Jan Ardena]

cluelusshusbund,

Is our free-will limited in any way.???

Yes, our bodies.

jan.

 

[swivel]

Predestination and free will aren't the problem. You can skirt these by saying we are free to choose, but god knows which way we will choose in any given situation/place/time. The real problem arises with god having created the universe (and us) with full knowledge of every action we would or wouldn't make. It isn't like he's a passive observer of all these instances of "free will," the real problem is that he made us and our environment in a way that precludes any alternative actions.

Ergo, he is responsible for everything we do and don't do, evil and otherwise. Again, not by dint of foreknowledge, but due to his omnipotence and role as Prime Mover.

He made Adam, Eve, and the apple knowing full-well what was about to happen. Every bad thing in the universe is thus his fault. Which is why it's best not to believe in the asshole, rather than suffer such a prick to exist in our superstition. He doesn't deserve our belief, much less our fealty.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Material nature.

Nope.
Doesn't work:
Look at the definition again:

des·tine (dstn)
tr.v. des·tined, des·tin·ing, des·tines
1. To determine beforehand; preordain: a foolish scheme destined to fail; a film destined to become a classic.
2. To assign for a specific end, use, or purpose: money destined to pay for their child's education.
3. To direct toward a given destination: a flight destined for Tokyo.

Death is not assigned or directed. Those require (as I said, a conscious agency). If we learn how to extend our lives would you then say that we've beaten destiny? In which case it can't have been destiny from the start can it?

I will not address any further diversions from the main topic: you've attempted it too often and they aren't relevant.

The unsureness is part of the overall character of the person.
God knows the persons character, and the reason for who and what they are at that particular moment in time.

Your own words: “If God can calculate that you would pick A, then the same method of calculation can be used to calculate the unsurety of the decision".
Make your mind up.
Is the calculation unsure or is the person?
If you claim that it's the person are you saying god knows (for certain) which we will pick?

I've explained all this, why are you bringing it back.

Because YOU asked the question - "If there is no choice (as in before the choice was made), what is there
to calculate?" Get it?

The person will choose, based on the entirety of his being, at that moment.

But does god know before the person chooses what will be chosen?

We make choices all the time, and the decisions we make form the fabric of our character and personality. in this life.
Knowing what we will do next through process of calculation must be pretty tedious.

You're waffling round the point.
Does god know before the person chooses what will be chosen?

I used the term "calculation" to specifically show how knowing the outcome of a persons choice could occurr without influencing the free will.

But failed. Knowledge of what will happen (no matter how arrived at) means that the choice is fixed.

It doesn't matter what we decide as we ourselves have set the path, full of reasons, as to what we will choose.
If I love ice cream, but not very fond of rhubarb pie, given the choice of the two, I will go for the thing I want, and anyone who knows me would know that.

Does god know before the person chooses what will be chosen?
And, back to an earlier part of the thread, no "anyone who knows you" does NOT know that: they can assume, they can consider it highly likely. But as far as they know you could always pick something else.

I don't think you know how to deal with my explanation.

Because you didn't give "an explanation".

And I'm right.
Debunk my point if you're serious, instead of going round circles.

You haven't got a point: you insist on skirting the issue.
Does god know before the person chooses what will be chosen?

Has it ever occured to you that you don't understand the answer.

It HAS occurred to me that your answer consists of double-think as far as the "answer" is concerned.

D, this question, and this so-called paradox is easy to understand, and answer.

Then answer it.

I get the feeling you have been caught off guard.

Hardly. Not even close.

Feel free to pull the plug whenever you're ready, because I don't think you have any comebacks.

Wrong again.

Are you a theist?

What?
This is more evidence that you don't actually read what I've written.

So do you.

Wrong. Aren't I the one that specifically said I didn't feel qualified (and you proceeded to expound on god's calculations)?

Because I am infinitesimally part and parcel of God, as are you, and every living entity.

That's an assumption: and nothing more.

Don't you just feel warm and tingly inside?

Nope.

We calculate all the time, even when we don't think we're calculating.
Calculation is a part of existence.

Nope.

eg. take something simple like eating, how many calculations do you think it takes to eat a banana, or a piece of cake.
But we don't have to stop and ponder about it.

Nope.

cal·cu·late (klky-lt)
v. cal·cu·lat·ed, cal·cu·lat·ing, cal·cu·lates
v.tr.
1. To ascertain by computation; reckon: calculating the area of a circle; calculated their probable time of arrival.
2. To make an estimate of; evaluate:

Or even

v.intr.
1. To perform a mathematical process; figure

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/calculate

And, if we go with your interpretation, then you even raising the point of "calculation" was entirely specious. When does anyone ever say "I calculated how to get the fork with the beans from the plate to my mouth"? Do we not regard that sort of action as being natural? Sort of "in our nature to do such things"? As I stated?

 

[Dywyddyr]

Predestination and free will aren't the problem. You can skirt these by saying we are free to choose, but god knows which way we will choose in any given situation/place/time.

If god knows then we are not and cannot be free to choose.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
How do you define "free-will".???

The ability to choose of your own mind. ”

Is our free-will limited in any way.???

Yes, our bodies.

So humans have un-equal free-will.???

When you use the term "body"... does that include our mind.???


...how do you define "free agent".???

“ To do anything you like without certain limitations (body, mind, etc..) ”

Are som humans "free-agents"/please give an esample of a "free-agent".???

 

[Jan Ardena]

cluelusshusbund,

So humans have un-equal free-will.???

Compared to...?

When you use the term "body"... does that include our mind.???

Yes and no.
The body is designed for the material environment.
The mind is not as gross as the body, so is not subject to
the same limitation, but can be convinced (conditioned) that the body, along
with the environment is the ultimate reality.

Are som humans "free-agents"/please give an esample of a "free-agent".???

I don't see how that could be possible in ordinary circumstances.

jan.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Origionaly posted by cluelusshusbund
Is our free-will limited in any way.???

Yes, our bodies. ”

So humans have un-equal free-will.???

Compared to...?

Compared to people whos bodys ant equal???... or what did you mean when you said that our bodys can limit our free-will.???

When you use the term "body"... does that include our mind.???

Yes and no.
The body is designed for the material environment.
The mind is not as gross as the body, so is not subject to
the same limitation, but can be convinced (conditioned) that the body, along
with the environment is the ultimate reality.

So our minds can also put limitatons on our free-will.!!!

Do all humans have equal amounts of "free-will."???


...how do you define "free agent".???

To do anything you like without certain limitations (body, mind, etc..) ” ”

Are som humans "free-agents"/please give an esample of a "free-agent".???

I don't see how that could be possible in ordinary circumstances.

oK... please give an esample of a "free-agent".!!!

 

[Jan Ardena]

cluelusshusbund,

Compared to people whos bodys ant equal???... or what did you mean when you said that our bodys can limit our free-will.???

Free will is the ability to make your own choices.
The limitation of the body doesn't impede that.
As far as the mind is concerned, I don't eknow what level of impairment
it would have to reach, to be beyond the ability of free-will, if indeed
there is such a level.

So our minds can also put limitatons on our free-will.!!!

I don't know.
If there is such a thing as complete mind-control, then maybe.
But as we've seen from various de-programming teams, such a mind
can be restored.

Do all humans have equal amounts of "free-will."???

Given what free-will is (the ability to choose for yourself), I think yes.

oK... please give an esample of a "free-agent".!!!

What I meant by "free-agent" in the context I used, was a person who
had no limitations at all, either bodily or mentally.

Such a person would be God, or someone like God, but less powerfull.

jan.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

The real problem arises with god having created the universe (and us) with full knowledge of every action we would or wouldn't make.

This is interesting because if God knows everything about this universe then He doesn't really need to be here. Could explain why He is absent.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Nope.
Doesn't work:
Look at the definition again:

Death is not assigned or directed. Those require (as I said, a conscious agency). If we learn how to extend our lives would you then say that we've beaten destiny? In which case it can't have been destiny from the start can it?

This does not define destiny, it is the definition of destine, and
has nothing to do with the topic of predestination

Your own words: “If God can calculate that you would pick A, then the same method of calculation can be used to calculate the unsurety of the decision".
Make your mind up.
Is the calculation unsure or is the person?

If God has perfect knowledge and intelligence, how he be unsure of anything?

If you claim that it's the person are you saying god knows (for certain) which we will pick?

I'm saying He knows it will happen.

Does god know before the person chooses what will be chosen?

If the person hasn't chosen, then there is nothing to know with regard to choosing what hasn't been chosen.
But, God knows the person, so if the question of choice was to arise, then God would know what choice would be made on that basis.
Knowledge of something has to be based on something. Your implication
that something can be known when there's nothing to be known is illogical.

What?
This is more evidence that you don't actually read what I've written.

I assume you aren't, but I thought I'd ask.

Wrong. Aren't I the one that specifically said I didn't feel qualified (and you proceeded to expound on god's calculations)?

Anyone who as read a scripture and has a basic understanding of words, can be qualified to define God the way I have.
In the bible, Eve chose to partake of the forbiden fruit, despite God's instuction, is clear evidence (hypothetical or otherwise) that free-will exists, yet you argue that it cannot less God is not God by dint of His perfect knowledge. This marks you as someone who feels he is qualified to talk about His characteristics, who in actuality is not.

That's an assumption: and nothing more.

Everything in this discussion is based on assumption.

And, if we go with your interpretation, then you even raising the point of "calculation" was entirely specious. When does anyone ever say "I calculated how to get the fork with the beans from the plate to my mouth"? Do we not regard that sort of action as being natural? Sort of "in our nature to do such things"? As I stated?

It is regarded as natural.
But we don't comment on it, because we are in perfect knowledge of it (those of us who are able). That's the beauty of perfect knowledge, one doesn't have to think about ones actions, it appears as if it's the most natural thing in the world.

jan.