"proof that the christian god can't exist, debunked"

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

If something is non-existent, what is there to know?

Unless the future is fixed then it is not possible to know.

What does past, present, or future have to do with the question.
Please give a straight answer.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

What does past, present, or future have to do with the question.
Please give a straight answer.

It's quite simple (and was amply illustrated in my reversing the question to you).
Before you make a choice the decision does not exist.
After you've made the choice the decision does exist.
So before you choose the decision is in the future.
The only way god could know what you will choose is by knowing the future.

You really haven't been following at all have you?
What tense is implied in the question: does god know what you will do before you make the choice?
Oh look, it's the future.

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

The only way god could know what you will choose is by knowing the future.

Amazing isn't it? Don't know if you can put it to the Xians any better. This isn't nuclear physics. What do you think the problem is? You know we're heading to the standard answer once they finally realize your logic is irrefutable.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originaly posted by cluelusshusbund,
Does an insane person deserve punishment (by God) if they (mistakenly of course) hear God tell them to kill ther children so the Devil cant harm them... an then in fact sin by killin ther children.??? ”

Those kind of situations are seriously complex, more complex than we
are lead to believe. There is no way I could answer something like that.

Whats the prollem... you clame that everbody has equal free-will... so why woudnt God punish an insane person who chooses to sin.???

Ever detale of our existence hapens the way it does because of the way we was specificaly designed by God... God knew befor we was even borned that we woud pick "A" (not "B")... ie... we was programed by God to pick "A"... our lives unfold as if they were a movie on film... an no mater how many times the movie of our life was re-wound an played bak... we woud pick "A" ever time.!!!

What part of the above do you not agree wit (if any).???

God created you an you'r inviroment... he created it in such a way that you will behave in a particular way... ie... you can not behave in a way that devates from Gods plan.!!!

The problem is, we think we can. ”

Please give an esample of that so i mite beter understan what you mean.!!!

Is the Holey-Bible God the only "free-agent" you know of.???

Anyhow... God has no limits so surly has free-will... do you thank God is pleased wit the humans he used his free-will to create.???

 

[scifes]

Do you consider it a flaw in you'r character that you continualy choose to sin.???

lol, you're not gonna pull me by the collar where you want to clueless..
human character by default includes sinning, so according to what reference character should i reply to?
to a perfect character yes humans are flawed, to normal human character no i'm normal.
and more importantly, no body continuously sins, but those who choose to.

from the beginning you should've said "god rigged us to sin" and i would tell you "god rigged us not to sin too" so which rig is up your behind?

Well Scifies... you agree that God created humans wit the inability to choose anythang other than what they was programed to choose... but because they didnt know the game was rigged they shoud still be held acountable for ther actions.!!!

To me... i likein it to intentonally breedin a blind short-legged dog... an then enterin it in a race wit long legged dogs... an then punishin it because it lost the race.!!!

We agree that free-will is an illusion... our disagrement boils down to morals... you thank its moral that God punishes people who he intentionaly designed in such a way that guranteed falure... i dont.!!!

that's bulls clueless, and you know it.
not all dogs lose the race, and not all get punished, if you're a self-proclaimed loser and thinking it's not your fault and that you couldn't avoid it all along makes you feel better, then by all means think what you like, put your conscience to sleep and do what you like and blame it on everybody but yourself...
...go on, blame others for the choices you make..:m:

 

[Jan Ardena]

It's quite simple (and was amply illustrated in my reversing the question to you).
Before you make a choice the decision does not exist.
After you've made the choice the decision does exist.
So before you choose the decision is in the future.
The only way god could know what you will choose is by knowing the future.

You really haven't been following at all have you?
What tense is implied in the question: does god know what you will do before you make the choice?
Oh look, it's the future.

Stop being a wimp and answer the question.


If something is non-existent, what is there to know?


jan.

 

[wynn]

If something is non-existent, what is there to know?

What is there to know if something is non-existent?
This, for example: How come it is non-existent? If it is non-existent, how come anyone would wonder about it? Is it non-existent now/here, but has it been in existence before/elsewhere, or could it come into existence in the future/elsewhere?

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

What is there to know if something is non-existent?
This, for example: How come it is non-existent?

You mean like how come the 'biscuit people of Custard Creamonia"
don't exist?

If it is non-existent, how come anyone would wonder about it?

Ask Dywyddyr , he seems to think God would.

Is it non-existent now/here, but has it been in existence before/elsewhere, or could it come into existence in the future/elsewhere?

Out of context.

jan.

 

[scifes]

If something is non-existent, what is there to know?


jan.

if it will come into existence or not, and if yes, how?

like a live person's death, will his death "exist" or not? and how?

 

[Jan Ardena]

scifes,

if it will come into existence or not, and if yes, how?

Why would you want to know whether the biscuit people of Custar Creamonia
will come into existence?
More to the point why would you enquire about the "biscuit people of Custar Creamonia" in the first place if they don't exist?

like a live person's death, will his death "exist" or not? and how?

We know that everybody dies, so death of the body does exist.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Stop being a wimp and answer the question.

Oh Jan, more evasiveness on your part. I did answer, but you chose to ignore THAT post altogether and quote a later one of mine (answering a different question) as if I were ducking the question. (Although if you'd bothered to read it it would also have answered your qeustion).

For reference you asked this question in post #236, and I answered it in #239. You asked a different question in post #241 and I answered in #242.
Yet somehow you consider it valid to quote #242 as if it were a reply to #236 and then claim it doesn't give an answer.

If something is non-existent, what is there to know?

Exactly: yet the claim is that god knows you and the days of your life even from before you are born.
So ask god: what is there to know about something that is non-existent?

Out of context.

Hilarious, Signal answers the question, with a perfectly valid answer: it is non-existent NOW but will exist at some point, and you claim it's out of context.

If something is non-existent, what is there to know?

So by your "logic" if someone throws a hand grenade toward you, you won't run?
If the grenade hasn't gone off yet then there's no explosion and no shrapnel: they simply don't exist - so there's nothing to know about them. If there's (as you claim) nothing to know would you hang about watching the clouds?

Just answer me this question, as honestly as you can:
since it's becoming more and more evident that you have no intention (or maybe it's that you don't have the capability - in which case I'll forgive you) of actually engaging in the argument itself (you keep introducing sidelines, claims that "it doesn't apply in this case" and other trivialities) why did you bother getting involved?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Do you consider it a flaw in you'r character that you continualy choose to sin.???

human character by default includes sinning...

Yes... an God intentionaly created all humans flawed... som so badly flawed that they will wind up in hell.!!!

no body continuously sins, but those who choose to.

You continue to sin because God created you flawed... jus the way he wanted you to be... yes.???

from the beginning you should've said "god rigged us to sin" and i would tell you "god rigged us not to sin too"...

God rigged som people in such a way that hell is inevitable for them... an he regged others in such a way that heaven is inevitable for them... nobody can change Gods plan... people have no choise in the mater... its God who determined/rigged who will go to hell.!!!


Well Scifies... you agree that God created humans wit the inability to choose anythang other than what they was programed to choose... but because they didnt know the game was rigged they shoud still be held acountable for ther actions.!!!

To me... i likein it to intentonally breedin a blind short-legged dog... an then enterin it in a race wit long legged dogs... an then punishin it because it lost the race.!!!

We agree that free-will is an illusion... our disagrement boils down to morals... you thank its moral that God punishes people who he intentionaly designed in such a way that guranteed falure... i dont.!!!

that's bulls clueless, and you know it.
not all dogs lose the race, and not all get punished,

Yes... the only dog that got punished is the one God rigged for falure... ie... the dog which was intentionlay created blind an short-legged an forced to race agans long legged dogs who coud see... lol.!!!

if you're a self-proclaimed loser and thinking it's not your fault and that you couldn't avoid it all along makes you feel better, then by all means think what you like, put your conscience to sleep and do what you like and blame it on everybody but yourself...
...go on, blame others for the choices you make..:m:

You admit God riggs the game but in the sam breath you absolve God of responsibility... so it seems that you'r logic is asleep

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Exactly: yet the claim is that god knows you and the days of your life even from before you are born.
So ask god: what is there to know about something that is non-existent?

This assumes that the body is the begining and end of the relationship between God and the living entity. This is not the case.

Hilarious, Signal answers the question, with a perfectly valid answer: it is non-existent NOW but will exist at some point, and you claim it's out of context.

It is out of context with our discussion.

So by your "logic" if someone throws a hand grenade toward you, you won't run?
If the grenade hasn't gone off yet then there's no explosion and no shrapnel: they simply don't exist - so there's nothing to know about them. If there's (as you claim) nothing to know would you hang about watching the clouds?

If I didn't know what a hand grenade was, I most probably wouldn't run.

Just answer me this question, as honestly as you can:
since it's becoming more and more evident that you have no intention (or maybe it's that you don't have the capability - in which case I'll forgive you) of actually engaging in the argument itself (you keep introducing sidelines, claims that "it doesn't apply in this case" and other trivialities) why did you bother getting involved?

Please answer the question put to you.
Your waffling will not help you.

If something is non-existent, what is there to know?

And please answer it in the context of the discussion.

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

This assumes that the body is the begining and end of the relationship between God and the living entity. This is not the case.

I see. So your default position is that god does exist, regardless of anything else?
In which case I reiterate my question: why did you bother getting involved?

It is out of context with our discussion.

Wrong, Signal gave a valid answer.

If I didn't know what a hand grenade was, I most probably wouldn't run.

That's beside the point: the shrapnel and explosion do not exist until the grenade goes off. So, again by your logic, there's nothing to know about either.

Please answer the question put to you.
Your waffling will not help you.

The question has been answered. Twice (at least) by me, and by Signal.

And please answer it in the context of the discussion.

This, coupled with the a priori assumption (and apparent failure to entertain the possibility that you may be wrong in that assumption) that god does exist leads me to the conclusion that you have no intention (or, again, maybe it's that you're not capable with regard to this subject) of being honest.
I'm finished with you.

 

[scifes]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Do you consider it a flaw in you'r character that you continualy choose to sin.???



Yes... an God intentionaly created all humans flawed... som so badly flawed that they will wind up in hell.!!!



You continue to sin because God created you flawed... jus the way he wanted you to be... yes.???



God rigged som people in such a way that hell is inevitable for them... an he regged others in such a way that heaven is inevitable for them... nobody can change Gods plan... people have no choise in the mater... its God who determined/rigged who will go to hell.!!!


Well Scifies... you agree that God created humans wit the inability to choose anythang other than what they was programed to choose... but because they didnt know the game was rigged they shoud still be held acountable for ther actions.!!!

To me... i likein it to intentonally breedin a blind short-legged dog... an then enterin it in a race wit long legged dogs... an then punishin it because it lost the race.!!!

We agree that free-will is an illusion... our disagrement boils down to morals... you thank its moral that God punishes people who he intentionaly designed in such a way that guranteed falure... i dont.!!!



Yes... the only dog that got punished is the one God rigged for falure... ie... the dog which was intentionlay created blind an short-legged an forced to race agans long legged dogs who coud see... lol.!!!



You admit God riggs the game but in the sam breath you absolve God of responsibility... so it seems that you'r logic is asleep

you are but repeating your posts clueless, and i'm not about to repeat mine.

 

[scifes]

If so then they could not "choose" differently.

yeah so?
we've been through this before, you can't choose what you don't choose, that bothers you?
choose whatever you want, and you "can't" choose otherwise.
if you have A and B, and you're predestined to choose one and preordained not to choose the other, but you don't know which is which, what difference does it make? how does it influence your choice?
and let me remind you you said it doesn't change anything, so i don't know what's left to discuss.

You said it yourself, above: if it was pre-ordained then nothing can/ or could change it.

yeah so? choice exists regardless, because we're ignorant to the details of that fact, it doesn't affect us, nor our choice.
we will pick a preordained choice the same way we would pick one that is not, there's a difference between them(in a sense), but for us, we just choose, without knowing what's behind the curtain.

If you CAN'T choose the other one how is there a real choice?

because you don't know which one you can't choose.
because you CHOOSE the one you CAN'T choose and the one you can choose.

If god knows for a fact that you WILL have ice cream how can you possibly pick cake?

by the same token,
if god knows for a fact you're going to have cake how can you possibly pick icecream?
both sentences are equally valid and possible, since we don't know which one is in effect......man i'm just repeating myself.

What?
If there really is a choice then we can pick the other one, if the choice is illusory the no matter what we think we cannot pick anything other than the one that's pre-ordained.

yes D you are correct, there is a real choice and an illusionary one(once again, in a sense).
we can never know what kind of choice we're making.
we just make it.
either our choices are preknown and we don't know them, or they are not preknown so nobody knows them, no difference to us.

Um, that was MY point. You said "so they can't run away from responsibility, their excuse doesn't hold.".
If you cannot choose anything other what is pre-ordained (take the bribe for example) then how can you be held responsible?

sigh, you don't know what's been preordained to you, you can make the right choice and say it's preordained, or make the wrong choice and say it's preordained, that excuse is lame.

You quote yourself and claim it's trolling? Nice one.

it's to show you that i've answered your question even before you asked it, in the same sentence also.

If god knows what we're going to do before we do it then we MUST do it (otherwise god will be wrong). If god exists and actually is omniscient then we are following a script with no options whatsoever. Despite appearances.

yup, so?
uh, i just thought of this; you "choosing" is written in the script, it's not written in the script that you're going to be forced, so you can rape and that's what written in the script, or you can give charity and that's what written in the script.
you will not read the script and find "D is gonna rape his neighbor", then your body starts moving by itself and goes next door while you're willing it with all your might not to.

It doesn't matter what we think, it doesn't matter that we "aren't sure"*: we have a script to follow (a script that is written in stone). We can believe we have choices but whatever we pick is already written.

* If god exists and is omniscient it's also written that we will be "unsure". But we aren't we're just "robots"following a programme that WE are unaware of.

what we think is what matters, if we think we're choosing, then we're choosing, if we think we're not(i.e being coerced) then we're not, check cris's original argument premises.

 

[scifes]

a guy tells you to choose black or white, before you make your choice, he scribbles something into a paper you can't see, you choose white, he shows you his paper with "white" written on it. you repeat, this time he scribbles into the paper, you choose black, he shows you the paper with "black" written on it.
you repeat it for a million times, you try all tricks and stuff, he always gets it right.


this is just an example, as i don't think god has time to play games with you, not as dull as that one at least


actually, what is our world, but that game in a complex form?
god has a spreadsheet even before you start playing, counting your black choices and white choices, he also bought an open check or a loaded gun depending on which color would be more.
:shrug:
anything not clear?


:yawn: this is getting boring..

 

[cluelusshusbund]

you are but repeating your posts clueless, and i'm not about to repeat mine.

I dont want you (or Jan) to repete you'r non-responsive posts... i prefer that you (an Jan) actualy respond to what ive said an answr the questons ive ask... ant gonna hapen... huh.!!! :shrug:

 

[Dywyddyr]

yeah so?
we've been through this before, you can't choose what you don't choose, that bothers you?
choose whatever you want, and you "can't" choose otherwise.
if you have A and B, and you're predestined to choose one and preordained not to choose the other, but you don't know which is which, what difference does it make? how does it influence your choice?
and let me remind you you said it doesn't change anything, so i don't know what's left to discuss.

And let me remind you that if that is the case then we never have a choice: whatever we do is exactly as god decided it would be.
Atheists cannot choose to believe so they were condemned even before they were born to go to hell (or wherever).
As I stated many posts back.

yeah so? choice exists regardless, because we're ignorant to the details of that fact, it doesn't affect us, nor our choice.

Let me quote your own words back at you:

you can't choose what you don't choose

yes D you are correct, there is a real choice and an illusionary one(once again, in a sense).
we can never know what kind of choice we're making.
we just make it.
either our choices are preknown and we don't know them, or they are not preknown so nobody knows them, no difference to us.

It does make a difference: if they aren't known then we can choose (relatively) freely. If they are known they we don't have an actual choice - god set us up from the start.

sigh, you don't know what's been preordained to you, you can make the right choice and say it's preordained, or make the wrong choice and say it's preordained, that excuse is lame.

Sigh, no you can't because if it's preordained you can only pick what you were "intended" to pick.

what we think is what matters, if we think we're choosing, then we're choosing, if we think we're not(i.e being coerced) then we're not, check cris's original argument premises.

I have, and there doesn't need to be coercion. I suggest you go back and read it properly.

 

[scifes]

And let me remind you that if that is the case then we never have a choice: whatever we do is exactly as god decided it would be.

and that would be what?

Atheists cannot choose to believe so they were condemned even before they were born to go to hell (or wherever).
As I stated many posts back.

if that is so, then no one KNOWS he's an atheist