Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

[RandyB]

lol people talking about God in a science forum is funny...

Now if God is real, he gave people the choice to believe or not and therefore people that dont believe will use science to disprove his existence...

If God is real and likes a Joke he would place lots of things for science geeks to find so they can disprove his existence. I know I would if I was God. So you would never really know if he was real or not.

Westerners didnt invent the story of God. Im pretty sure Bethlehem PA wasnt the place Jesus was born.... yet Westerners probably argue more about religion than anyone else.
I used to feel sorry for Christians because I thought they needed something to make their lives feel purposeful but now I understand there is a possibility that the Bible is true or partly true. Just like I couldnt believe 50 Cent could get rich and famous with is music "sic" he did, so anything really is possible.....

 

[Arctavion]

My musings on the issue

Randy,

The problem with arguing 'from science' is that basic science is (or should be) the gathering of facts. After the facts are gathered an interpretation to 'fit' the facts must be made, this interpretation will come from a persons previous beliefs, unfortunately no one can come to the table with out prior assumptions. The goal is to realize those assumptions and try to avoid using them when looking at the data. Christians as well as materialists or atheists are equally guilty of the crime of tinted lenses.

All that to say many things that are brought out as evidence for one side can be interpreted by the other in such a way as to discredit it, this is why honesty with oneself is important so that we just don't keep following our train of thought uncritically. Christians unfortunately are famous for this.
~~~~~

Anyway back to the topic of the forum.

It does seem to be a paradox to say that man has free will but God is all powerful and all knowing and........... (all those things claimed by Christians)

In one sense to say that man has free will is completely true. As I sit here at this keyboard typing, I have the complete and utter freedom to do whatever I want. I can sit here and form this response. I can kill myself, I can throw the monitor out the window. I can swear and insult everyone here on the forum. I can stop and go read a book. None of these things are impossible for me. I am completely free to do any of these things if I want.

However, whatever I do chose to do is already known and determined by God. He has already set forth the out come of every possible choice I could come across. I simply do not know the out come yet since I have not experienced it.

What then? God is an evil and malicious being to create such a world and make individuals who will know nothing but suffering and death or become horrible rapists and serial killers! Well possibly. If God's purpose behind the creation of this world was simply to get a thrill from the pain and evil his creation does I would have to agree with you. However, I do not think that God's purpose behind creation was to have evil and suffering because he is a Sadist.

God is a being of infinite creativity and power and we are his creation. A vessel he created for some purpose. If it is for salvation then I fall on my knees as I rightly should to thank him. Alternately I could be a vessel meant for damnation as a show of what evil is. In either case I am simply doing what the author wishes of his character. I really like the analogy of a book.

We would not hang an author for creating a character who is the villain and is evil to the core, he is the evil in the story that the hero of the story must vanquish and the author gives the villain minions to carry out tasks and to be evil. In the story the minions and the villain are evil and we cheer at their demise, we do not look and wonder why an author if he claims to be good would write into his story enemies that his hero(es) must vanquish.


We are the characters of a story, the author of which is God. We unlike in stories are self aware we are experiencing the story as it happens and as such see evil and suffering that we or others around are forced to experience and are completely unable to see the bigger picture of the story.

I hope that at least makes my reasoning of how reality works clear.

 

[ChasenCharran]

You guys did a good job making sure christian counterarguments couldn't win. But what about scientific? Yes, science allowing the God Paradox.

If someone in the second dimension were to see someone or something from the third dimension, (just pretend it happened) they would at first see nothing, then one slice of us, then slices further back/foreward, then nothing. So the third dimension is seeing all of depth at once. The fourth dimension (time) is revealed to us in the third dimension, but not all at once. So then the fourth dimension is being able to see all of time at once. That means that there is a future and a past. But yet we still have free will. How do I know? How do I know? If we didn't, then we wouldn't be able to exist without knowing we didn't have free will, and at first we would feel emotions of panic, feeling we didn't have free will. And not having free will doesn't mean that someone else can also control what we know or what emotions we feel. And if whoever was controlling us did what exactly what we would've done, as to make us feel as if we had control, then we are doing what we choose to do, which is what I think free will is. So there is a future, and we have free will. Just didn't want this discussion to go on without anything working for the other side. It got awfully stale.

 

[Dywyddyr]

You guys did a good job making sure christian counterarguments couldn't win.

I see you've misconstrued the argument.

But what about scientific? Yes, science allowing the God Paradox.

So show us some supporting science.

If someone in the second dimension were to see someone or something from the third dimension, (just pretend it happened) they would at first see nothing, then one slice of us, then slices further back/foreward, then nothing. So the third dimension is seeing all of depth at once. The fourth dimension (time) is revealed to us in the third dimension, but not all at once.

Nope. Someone or something cannot perceive at all the third dimension. Everything they see is 2D.

So then the fourth dimension is being able to see all of time at once.

Supposition.

That means that there is a future and a past.

Um, no it doesn't.

But yet we still have free will. How do I know? How do I know? If we didn't, then we wouldn't be able to exist without knowing we didn't have free will, and at first we would feel emotions of panic, feeling we didn't have free will.

Again, supposition. And we wouldn't feel panic unless that was foreknown...

And not having free will doesn't mean that someone else can also control what we know or what emotions we feel. And if whoever was controlling us did what exactly what we would've done, as to make us feel as if we had control, then we are doing what we choose to do, which is what I think free will is.

And you've missed that too. Not having free will does not necessarily mean that we're being "controlled".

So there is a future, and we have free will.

They are not mutually exclusive/ supportive.

Just didn't want this discussion to go on without anything working for the other side. It got awfully stale.

Apparently, since you equally apparently have either not actually read the thread or, having read it, not taken the time to understand it.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

lol people talking about God in a science forum is funny...

*************
M*W: Not funnier than a delusional fool commenting on it.

Now if God is real, he gave people the choice to believe or not and therefore people that dont believe will use science to disprove his existence...

*************
M*W: See comment above...

If God is real and likes a Joke he would place lots of things for science geeks to find so they can disprove his existence. I know I would if I was God. So you would never really know if he was real or not.

*************
M*W: See comment above...

Westerners didnt invent the story of God. Im pretty sure Bethlehem PA wasnt the place Jesus was born... yet Westerners probably argue more about religion than anyone else.

*************
M*W: Obviously, you're not a Westerner, so you don't know shit from shinola.

I used to feel sorry for Christians because I thought they needed something to make their lives feel purposeful but now I understand there is a possibility that the Bible is true or partly true. Just like I couldnt believe 50 Cent could get rich and famous with is music "sic" he did, so anything really is possible.....

*************
M*W: Believe it.

"Listen nigga, We live like Italians in jail
I got CO's bringin' cell phones to my cell
Get rich in the game, niggas out to get you
Fill you ass up with led turn yo' ass to a pencil"

 

[soullust]

i would not say the Cristian god is none existent, I have strong faith that he exists, I just think religion is half fake and i take more reference from the old testament, desirer its meaning in my own mind not the modern day new testament, that has passed through many hands.

 

[Dywyddyr]

i would not say the Cristian god is none existent, I have strong faith that he exists

Faith but no evidence.

I just think religion is half fake and i take more reference from the old testament, desirer its meaning in my own mind not the modern day new testament, that has passed through many hands.

WTF?
"Modern day" New Testament? Modern day?
What makes you think the Old Testament hasn't passed through at least as many hands? If it's older then surely it's been through more.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

You guys did a good job making sure christian counterarguments couldn't win. But what about scientific? Yes, science allowing the God Paradox.

If someone in the second dimension were to see someone or something from the third dimension, (just pretend it happened) they would at first see nothing, then one slice of us, then slices further back/foreward, then nothing. So the third dimension is seeing all of depth at once. The fourth dimension (time) is revealed to us in the third dimension, but not all at once. So then the fourth dimension is being able to see all of time at once. That means that there is a future and a past. But yet we still have free will. How do I know? How do I know? If we didn't, then we wouldn't be able to exist without knowing we didn't have free will, and at first we would feel emotions of panic, feeling we didn't have free will. And not having free will doesn't mean that someone else can also control what we know or what emotions we feel. And if whoever was controlling us did what exactly what we would've done, as to make us feel as if we had control, then we are doing what we choose to do, which is what I think free will is. So there is a future, and we have free will. Just didn't want this discussion to go on without anything working for the other side. It got awfully stale.

*************
M*W: I don't know what you're on, buddy, nor what dimension you think you're in. All I know is that it's not herein.

 

[fatesrych1]

Religion and god all remnants of the childhood stage of mankind.

We seem to evolve into reason eventually.

Thanks internet for that!!

 

[srw]

Of course if free will did not exist, then there would be no need for faith, which is the one of the founding blocks of Christianity. Also, if free will did not exist, then a "true", absolute love could not exist. If someone were forced into a decision, their choice would not be sufficient. However, free will allows for an absolute decision, to trust and believe. While the power of God and free will in comparison may sound faulty, this stands true and whole as the basic foundation of Christianity. Man is given choice, because without choice, a true love and committment to a God could not stand strong. Also, while hell as a place is often thrown around as an abstract "vacation", the Christian believer knows that any pain experienced here on earth cannot compare to a single second of the tortures that a real place holds. While Christianity may sound solely idealistic and "religious", the promises within the words guarantee a genuine hope for a corrupt world. Believing gives someone nothing to lose, yet those who choose not to, have everything to lose.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Also, if free will did not exist, then a "true", absolute love could not exist. If someone were forced into a decision, their choice would not be sufficient.

And you're someone else that conflates lack of free will with "force". Not so.

While the power of God and free will in comparison may sound faulty, this stands true and whole as the basic foundation of Christianity.

Yep, "true and whole": and mutually incompatible.

 

[soullust]

Faith but no evidence.


WTF?
"Modern day" New Testament? Modern day?
What makes you think the Old Testament hasn't passed through at least as many hands? If it's older then surely it's been through more.

Oh it probally was, but at least a few less then the new testament

And yeah, i know it goes against allot of what i preach,about facts. But my holy side is generations old..i really don't know dude.

 

[Dywyddyr]

Oh it probally was, but at least a few less then the new testament

I'm still not sure how you work that out.
If it's older then it MUST have been through more hands. Unless the entire thing was stashed away somewhere...

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Of course if free will did not exist, then there would be no need for faith, which is the one of the founding blocks of Christianity. Also, if free will did not exist, then a "true", absolute love could not exist. If someone were forced into a decision, their choice would not be sufficient. However, free will allows for an absolute decision, to trust and believe. While the power of God and free will in comparison may sound faulty, this stands true and whole as the basic foundation of Christianity. Man is given choice, because without choice, a true love and committment to a God could not stand strong. Also, while hell as a place is often thrown around as an abstract "vacation", the Christian believer knows that any pain experienced here on earth cannot compare to a single second of the tortures that a real place holds. While Christianity may sound solely idealistic and "religious", the promises within the words guarantee a genuine hope for a corrupt world. Believing gives someone nothing to lose, yet those who choose not to, have everything to lose.

*************
M*W: My gawd, you sound like a lovesick twit.

Free will exists, but it has nothing to do with a god or a religion (xianity).

Humans have choices, one of them is to love and to be loved out of which comes commitment. That has nothing to do with a god or a religion (xianity).

No one has ever come back from such a place as heaven or hell to tell what it was like. Therefore, heaven and hell do not and cannot exist anywhere except in the mind of the living.

Believing in something that exists is a choice.
Believing in something that doesn't exist is a delusion.

My advice to you is to grow up and shut up. Learn the difference between what is real and what is not real. Don't join internet forums until you have something intelligent to say. Better yet, quit playing on the Internet and get a life.

 

[qwerty mob]

Believing in something that exists is a choice.
Believing in something that doesn't exist is a delusion.

Well put, M*W

 

[baumgarten]

Believing in something that exists is a choice.
Believing in something that doesn't exist is a delusion.

Well put, M*W

This is actually the single worst set of epistemological maxims I have ever read.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/popper_falsification.html

The above link, which you will not read, explains how believing in something that doesn't exist is a precondition for science. This is how progress works, folks.

 

[John99]

Believing in something that exists is a choice.
Believing in something that doesn't exist is a delusion.

Well put, M*W

I cant agree with that for the simple fact that believing in something that exists is not a choice. If you dont believe in something that exists that is delusional or maybe just denial.

 

[NMSquirrel]

*************
M*W: My gawd, you sound like a lovesick twit.

personal opinion

but it has nothing to do with a god or a religion

personal opinion

That has nothing to do with a god or a religion

personal opinion

No one has ever come back from such a place as heaven or hell to tell what it was like. Therefore, heaven and hell do not and cannot exist anywhere except in the mind of the living.

ever see beyond and back? it is a movie about ppl who have done just that..

Believing in something that exists is a choice.
Believing in something that doesn't exist is a delusion.

i will agree with baum and john on this point

My advice to you is to grow up and shut up. Learn the difference between what is real and what is not real.

sounds like someone got up on the wrong side of the bed..

Don't join internet forums until you have something intelligent to say.

and there was inteligence in your post? or just an emotional outburst?

Better yet, quit playing on the Internet and get a life.

same could be said to you...

 

[Dywyddyr]

I cant agree with that for the simple fact that believing in something that exists is not a choice.

Oh dear.
Never met a creationist?
They don't believe in evolution.
Never met an atheist?
According to theists god exists, and atheists don't believe in god.
So your "simple fact" would appear to be not quite so simple...

If you dont believe in something that exists that is delusional or maybe just denial.

People are capable of all sorts of self-delusions.

 

[John99]

Oh dear.
Never met a creationist?
They don't believe in evolution.
Never met an atheist?
According to theists god exists, and atheists don't believe in god.
So your "simple fact" would appear to be not quite so simple...


People are capable of all sorts of self-delusions.

The quote from M*W is wrong. A reasonable person cannot deny something that exists, so that is not a choice. Also, in the second part she also conveniently stacked the deck in her favor due to: relevance, ambiguity, and presumption. That is dirty pool she is playing.