Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

Doro said:
Yes God knows everything, how things will turn out, who will choose Him, who will not. Yet that in no way erradicates freedom, it simply means what it says, God knows everything. But instead of forcefully applying His will, He steps back and allows us to make our own choices, knowing that whoever seeks the Truth (Him) will eventually find it FREELY, rather than being forced or molded into it like a robot, or controled as a puppet
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It's not a question of force, or robots.
If the future is known then any "choice" is predestined (since choosing anything else would make the infallible predictor wrong).
The knowledge (should it exist) itself makes free will a myth.

I see no contradiction in this.
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Nevertheless there is one.
 
I thought this thread was dead, yet here it is agin. I may have said this before, but this thread is poo. If an Omniscient being rolls a set of dice and in no way acts to affect their landing does the fact of his knowing detract from the randomness of the dice?



Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

Main Entry: om·ni·scient
Pronunciation: \-shənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin omniscient-, omnisciens, back-formation from Medieval Latin omniscientia
Date: circa 1604
1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge

These two things do not cancel out. Get real.
 
Mr. Hamtastic said:
If an Omniscient being rolls a set of dice and in no way acts to affect their landing does the fact of his knowing detract from the randomness of the dice?
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Yes.

If the result could be anything other than predicted then the knowledge isn't complete, therefore no omniscience.

If omniscience is real then any "free will" is pure illusion, since no other outcome is possible, otherwise the prediction would be wrong.
 
Let me make sure I understand this, squirrel. Knowing the outcome of something is tampering with what happens? Very well. I know that you will at some point evacuate your bowels. Have I tampered with you?
 
Mr. Hamtastic said:
Let me make sure I understand this, squirrel. Knowing the outcome of something is tampering with what happens? Very well. I know that you will at some point evacuate your bowels. Have I tampered with you?
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Not tampering: the knowledge negates the choice.
And emptying my bowels doesn't count :)

Say you're given a choice between red and blue.
If an infallible predictor states which colour you WILL pick (whether he tells you or not) then you cannot pick anything other than what he has declared.
If he predicts blue then no matter what processes go through your mind, given that he's infallible, you must choose blue.
 
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oh I see. knowledge negates choice. Can we play a game? Nevermind. You will consider saying no if you consider playing a game. So don't bother considering it, because I don't want to play a game if you are going to consider saying no. What you were going to say doesn't matter. I also know that you will consider not considering to not play a game. Please. Don't waste your time. I know, thus your will is negated.
 
So you are claiming absolute knowledge?

The knowledge (i.e. infallible foreknowledge), not just knowledge.

So tell me, in my above example where is the free will?
 
once again:
Main Entry: free will
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
1 : voluntary choice or decision <I do this of my own free will>
2 : freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

If God knows I will choose blue then I will choose blue. He did not interfere with my choice. He just knew about it. I think this may require further definition.

Main Entry: 1choice
Pronunciation: \ˈchȯis\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English chois, from Anglo-French, from choisir to choose, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German kiosan to choose — more at choose
Date: 13th century
1: the act of choosing : selection <finding it hard to make a choice>
2: power of choosing : option <you have no choice>
3 a: the best part : cream b: a person or thing chosen <she was their first choice>
4: a number and variety to choose among <a plan with a wide choice of options>
5: care in selecting
6: a grade of meat between prime and good

The free will was my act of choosing. The foreknowledge neither adds nor subtracts from the choice. The choice is still made.
 
Mr. Hamtastic said:
If God knows I will choose blue then I will choose blue. He did not interfere with my choice. He just knew about it. I think this may require further definition.
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I believe I actually stated that there was no interfence - other than the knowledge itself rendering the concept invalid.
Not tampering:
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Post #1425.

The free will was my act of choosing. The foreknowledge neither adds nor subtracts from the choice. The choice is still made.
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So we tell ourselves.
But the fact is that if the choice was infallibly known beforehand then we could not have made any other "choice".
To do so would render the forecaster fallible.
There is no possible way that we could pick red if the prediction was blue.
We wouldn't feel any coercion, there's no need for there to be any.

It would just mean that we are effectively characters in a book or film: they may believe they have free will but are subject to the plot - the story and events will turn out as given every time the story is read.
 
Oli-I can accept that actually. I believe in M-theory, too. In this universe God knows that we are discussing this point and the sides we are representing. He is also aware of another universe where our roles are reversed. Predestination is one of those big discussions even among Theists.
 
Mr. Hamtastic said:
Oli-I can accept that actually.
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Ah, but which bit do you consider to be true?

Free will or god's foreknowledge?
I have to go for free will.
Personally I find the foreknowledge (therefore we're just following a script that is unknown to us) to be eminently depressing.
And that's not just my current state of mind talking...
 
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To. Cris I say no free will or choices..

My name is Glen, I have been I Christain all my life, And you make some great points another way to see things. For The past couple of years From What I have been seeing is that I can propably hop into my car shoot down 75 the wrong way durning the busiest time of day over a 100 miles an hr. right a eightwheeler every attention on commiting to kill my self. But here is the catch, If it is not my time to die, no matter if I did it or not if there is a God and He says it is not my time to die I simply wont die, If I did the act or not. It is not my choice. This does hurt Christian believe, But does not rule not that Jesus have lived or not. Remember all religion is created by man through so called gods. We are immortals until God say it is time for us to go, not a minute sooner. Relax, so do whatever and maybe we should start living life that way. As if everything already planned out for us. Wouldn't we be much happier anyway? Trying to plan things out for my self is not really working out anyway!! Do we really even make our own choices?
 
if something is predestined its not going to be like a fortune cookie "your not gonna die today"!!! its going to be every little detail from if you lose an eyelash to how many times you scratch your ass this morning. a predetermined fate would have to be unbiased to every atom for every moment.

which makes the original post of this thread have meaning. but i would like to add that knowing someones intended response is different than responding for them. just because someone already knows what youll do doesnt take away that you chose to do.
 
also there is better proof that god either doesnt exist and that most religous faiths are completely full of it

the concept behind god: theres an invisible man way up in the clouds that controls everything. hes all knowing and all powerful. and hes got a list of ten things youre never supposed to do, and if you do any of these things you will be sent to a place of burning and fire and brimstone where you will be tortured for all eternity. but he loves you

and he even had sex with another mans girl which im pretty sure violates one of his commandments. shouldnt he lead by example? why not find somebody who was single?
or better yet why would he let his own son be stabbed by a bunch of guys and hung up on a cross to die. why would he make him walk on water how is he supposed to get wet let alone bathe? and what kind of father is he letting his own son hang out with such a bad crowd (the prostitutes and the thieves and lepers) also, hed turn a guy into a pillar of salt for not believing in him but he doesnt do anything about the profiteering telemarketer priests on tv
 
glen5150 My name is Glen, I have been I Christain all my life

Hi Glen!

Don't worry you are on the path to recovery. Just take it one day at a time and you'll be off the bible and rational in no time.

glen5150 If it is not my time to die, no matter if I did it or not if there is a God and He says it is not my time to die I simply wont die, If I did the act or not.

Funny how if I put a loaded .44 to you head and pull the trigger, god decides it is your time to die 100% of the time.

Oddly enough, you jump out an airplane w/o a parachute and god decides it is your time to die 100% of the time.

Sit in the closet with a lit charcoal grill and god will cack you 100% of the time.

Face it, god's a push over on the deciding its your time, just prove you are a dumbass and bang, you are out of there.
 
"Don't worry you are on the path to recovery. Just take it one day at a time and you'll be off the bible and rational in no time."

what is to recover to? Atheism is completely irrational.

"Funny how if I put a loaded .44 to you head and pull the trigger, god decides it is your time to die 100% of the time."

Not true. History records numerous exceptions to your 100% rule. Sometimes guns do not go off as expected. Being a military man you should be aware of this....

"Oddly enough, you jump out an airplane w/o a parachute and god decides it is your time to die 100% of the time."

Again, history records many exceptions to this 100% rule. Many people have inexplicably survived falls from aircraft, sometimes with little to no major injury's.

"Sit in the closet with a lit charcoal grill and god will cack you 100% of the time."

Again, no 100% can be offered here as exceptions do exist.

"Face it, god's a push over on the deciding its your time, just prove you are a dumbass and bang, you are out of there."

suicide is foolish, but God can and we believe, has, protected folks from "certain" death on many ocasions. Thousands of examples of this are out there, sadly, none of which would convince a man who has axiomatically determined that no God exists.
 
mynameisDan Sometimes guns do not go off as expected.

If at first god isn't convinced, pull the trigger again.
 
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