Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

[Benauld]

Correct, but you still made a choice to attemptively defy God right?

Yes but he already knew that I would defy him. So how, by any definition of the word would my choice be FREE?

 

[Oli]

Again, wrong.

That's right - you're wrong, again.

Take for example your post, lets sat I knew that you would respond. Now, if I claimed that I know you will respond to me again, lets say you won't in an attempt to prove me wrong. But if I keep this knowledge to myself, then you would of course still make the same choice and choose to respond. Of course, if I told you about it, I would also know how you will react.
The choice is still there. You are still making a choice.

Nope, if you knew 100% how I was going to respond then I COULD NOT have responded any other way than that your foreknowledge predicted.
Any "choice" that I had was entirely illusional.

He does know. I am attempting to explain it in a more understandable way and I apparently failed.

And your understanding of this comes from...?

What I am saying is that life is not pre-determined, God just knows what is going to happen based on how we act, and our surrondings. And yes, He can read our minds (well, it says heart or soul in the bible, but its the same basic thing really). If you recall God does not look to the outside of a person, but only looks at what the person is like on the inside, how he acts, thinks, and feels.

So he doesn't know, basically what you're saying he just knows AS we make choices?
The way I turn round upon reading your post and say "How predictable - I knew you going to write that"?

This is why God cannot stand wicked people, it is to him as a a horribly deformed person is to us.

And since he was responsible for the whole thing in the first place... where does the "blame" lie?

 

[Hellblade8]

That's right - you're wrong, again.

I see this debate is going to last some time...

Nope, if you knew 100% how I was going to respond then I COULD NOT have responded any other way than that your foreknowledge predicted.
Any "choice" that I had was entirely illusional.

No it wasn't, you still made the choice. You still chose to do so, I did not alter the future in any way, but instead I just knew what you would do.

And your understanding of this comes from...?

You have to ask?

So he doesn't know, basically what you're saying he just knows AS we make choices?
The way I turn round upon reading your post and say "How predictable - I knew you going to write that"?

Sort of, except his would be more accurate on just His very nature. And that doesn't even take into account if God can see the future or not. In fact, if you read the bible, God often is said to know things because "He knew their heart". He could see into someone and see what their mind holds, how they feel and what they will do in any given situation.

And since he was responsible for the whole thing in the first place... where does the "blame" lie?

An interesting question. I suppose ultimatly you could rest all blame at God's feet if you truly wanted since He gave us free will and the ability to sin, but then again He also gave us the choice of what to do as well as letting us know what is wrong or right. Its like a person giving you a test in school, sure they gave you the test but you failed it.

But let me ask you, do you think God is thus a horrible person for creating life as it is?

 

[Hellblade8]

Yes but he already knew that I would defy him. So how, by any definition of the word would my choice be FREE?

Because you chose to do it. He did not force you one way or the other, you did it yourself.

 

[Benauld]

Because you chose to do it. He did not force you one way or the other, you did it yourself.

BUT (once again) he isn't providing me with a REAL choice if he already knows how I will act - it's just an illusion.

It's like in your cake analogy, the parent putting strychnine in the cake because they know the child will take it. God would deny me eternal life for defying him, even though he knew there was no choice...

 

[Oli]

I see this debate is going to last some time...

Only until you see the logic.

No it wasn't, you still made the choice. You still chose to do so, I did not alter the future in any way, but instead I just knew what you would do.

And if you knew 100% then the choice was not there since I could not have done otherwise.

You have to ask?

Certainly I have to ask.
Is it a true understanding or just a belief you have of how things are?

Sort of, except his would be more accurate on just His very nature. And that doesn't even take into account if God can see the future or not. In fact, if you read the bible, God often is said to know things because "He knew their heart". He could see into someone and see what their mind holds, how they feel and what they will do in any given situation.

And if he's infallible where is the difference between foreknowledge and the above?
Otherwise it's just a guess and he could be wrong.

An interesting question. I suppose ultimatly you could rest all blame at God's feet if you truly wanted since He gave us free will and the ability to sin, but then again He also gave us the choice of what to do as well as letting us know what is wrong or right. Its like a person giving you a test in school, sure they gave you the test but you failed it.

And if he knew/ knows the final result then we didn't have the choice and we were set up from the start.

But let me ask you, do you think God is thus a horrible person for creating life as it is?

I don't believe there is a god.
But if there is, and he's anything like the god I was taught about as a youngster then he's worse than horrible, he's a sadistic egomaniac.

Because you chose to do it. He did not force you one way or the other, you did it yourself.

No, the foreknowledge "made" the choice - I'll repeat this:
with absolute foreknowledge there can be no freewill.

 

[Hellblade8]

Only until you see the logic.

I can say the same of you.

And if you knew 100% then the choice was not there since I could not have done otherwise.

But you made the choice. How is knowing something forcing you to take an action?

Certainly I have to ask.
Is it a true understanding or just a belief you have of how things are?

Forgive me if I sound like I am side stepping the issue, but what do you mean?

Do you mean in terms of faith do I believe this? Or have I spoken and gained this knowledge via God Himself? If I where to answer this question, I would think my reply would be that my position is on the stance of what the bible says using logic and reason to determine what is true and what is not.

I did make it clear that I don't consider every word in the bible to be true did I not? Or did I forget that? For some reason people tend to think its a big deal.

And if he's infallible where is the difference between foreknowledge and the above?
Otherwise it's just a guess and he could be wrong.

Perhaps. But the issue is fairly complex. Since God is claimed to see all things at once, or some such, He would know how you would react as a child based on your basic human nature given via your instinct often dictated by your DNA. As nature meets nurture, your personality is built upon the actions of your life. He knows all of this, every single thought, and every single feeling inside of you. So, its not really that God knows via seeing into the future (though if He can do that is still a big unknown...Bible isn't very clear at times...), but based on that He knows you just that well. Look at it like this, when God sees you, He doesn't see your physical body, He sees your mind. He sees what you think, have thought, and how you act, and from all of these, and given He's more intelligent than perhaps any computer we could ever build, He could determine what you will do.

And if he knew/ knows the final result then we didn't have the choice and we were set up from the start.

An interesting notion.

I don't believe there is a god.

Fair enough.

But if there is, and he's anything like the god I was taught about as a youngster then he's worse than horrible, he's a sadistic egomaniac.

Explain.

No, the foreknowledge "made" the choice - I'll repeat this:
with absolute foreknowledge there can be no freewill.

Why do you say that?

 

[Hellblade8]

BUT (once again) he isn't providing me with a REAL choice if he already knows how I will act - it's just an illusion.

It's like in your cake analogy, the parent putting strychnine in the cake because they know the child will take it. God would deny me eternal life for defying him, even though he knew there was no choice...

Well, to be fair, you get eternal life either way really, though the quality of it depends on how you act. If your an asshole, God burns your ass, if your a good guy, you go on to better things.

 

[Benauld]

Well, to be fair, you get eternal life either way really, though the quality of it depends on how you act. If your an asshole, God burns your ass, if your a good guy, you go on to better things.

So I don't have a choice not to have eternal life?

 

[Hellblade8]

So I don't have a choice not to have eternal life?

Hmmm, good question, possibly, I just know you don't have a choice in being judged.

 

[Oli]

I can say the same of you.

You could, but you'd be incorrect.

But you made the choice. How is knowing something forcing you to take an action?

It's not a question of force: if the knowledge is correct then I could not have chosen another option, because then the knowledge would not be correct.

Forgive me if I sound like I am side stepping the issue, but what do you mean?

No, I don't think you're sidestepping.
What I mean is, since you are not (presumably) god, then your understanding of him and his knowledge/ actions is based on belief and faith only, not an actual knowledge the way I know, say, my mother.

Perhaps. But the issue is fairly complex. Since God is claimed to see all things at once, or some such, He would know how you would react as a child based on your basic human nature given via your instinct often dictated by your DNA. As nature meets nurture, your personality is built upon the actions of your life. He knows all of this, every single thought, and every single feeling inside of you.

So he can be wrong?
If not then we're back to foreknowledge...

So, its not really that God knows via seeing into the future (though if He can do that is still a big unknown...Bible isn't very clear at times...), but based on that He knows you just that well. Look at it like this, when God sees you, He doesn't see your physical body, He sees your mind. He sees what you think, have thought, and how you act, and from all of these, and given He's more intelligent than perhaps any computer we could ever build,

All of the above is, of course, supposition.

He could determine what you will do.

So we ARE back to foreknowledge.

An interesting notion.
Fair enough.
Explain.

Because if god knows/ knew how people would behave then we were created in the knowledge that some of us would fail - and left to do so.
God would have known that Lucifer would revolt, wars would happen etc etc.
And we were left to with no choice.

Why do you say that?

If the knowledge is infallibly correct (say choose A or B) then whatever we think we are choosing is pre-determined by that knowledge: if the person with that knowledge KNOWS we are going to choose A then we cannot, under any circumstance whatsoever, choose B, because that would mean that the person with the knowledge is not infallible.
You can't have both.
Infallibly correct foreknowledge or free will.
One OR the other.
The fact that the foreknowledge exists means that freedom of choice is null and void - no force, no coercion, just the facts of reality.

 

[(Q)]

How so?

The story of Job was about testing a man's faith.

Why would a god need to test man's faith? What is it for that god needs confirmation?

And by the way, it was Satan who actually performed the deeds, not Yahweh Himself.

How does that get Yahweh off the hook? Why would he allow such a thing to occur? Is he that petty he must stoop to Satan's whims? That he would even consider doing such a thing?

Yahweh was just as guilty as Satan, and just as cruel.

And to top it all off, Yahweh just didn't let Satan screw Job over and then leave him be, He rewarded Job with great gifts.

So, the moral of the story is that it's completely ok to destroy someone's life or watch gleefully as someone else does it, as long as they're rewarded later, with "great gifts?"

Of course, lets all forget that part.

Yes, conveniently.

 

[Hellblade8]

You could, but you'd be incorrect.

Hmm, no.

(sorry for the delay, I got called away from the comp for something)

It's not a question of force: if the knowledge is correct then I could not have chosen another option, because then the knowledge would not be correct.

But how is knowing something denying you from choosin?

No, I don't think you're sidestepping.
What I mean is, since you are not (presumably) god, then your understanding of him and his knowledge/ actions is based on belief and faith only, not an actual knowledge the way I know, say, my mother.

Ah. My knowledge comes from the bible and faith. Mind you, both views of Him are flawed in some way.

So he can be wrong?
If not then we're back to foreknowledge...

Its debateable, He Himself has known to change His mind so I suppose its possible He can make mistakes, if this is so then His infalibility may have been refering to His moral code. Of course, this would be speculation on my part.

All of the above is, of course, supposition.

True.

So we ARE back to foreknowledge.

I think I worded that wrong, what I mean to say is He will conclude as to what you will do.

Because if god knows/ knew how people would behave then we were created in the knowledge that some of us would fail - and left to do so.
God would have known that Lucifer would revolt, wars would happen etc etc.
And we were left to with no choice.

Oh, I'm sure God had some idea of all of these before they happened, but again, because He saw into the hearts of everyone and He looks at a bigger picture than we do. He would know that a war is coming because He can see into the hearts of men and can see where they are being lead to. Lucifer He would see becoming full of pride and arrogance.

If the knowledge is infallibly correct (say choose A or B) then whatever we think we are choosing is pre-determined by that knowledge: if the person with that knowledge KNOWS we are going to choose A then we cannot, under any circumstance whatsoever, choose B, because that would mean that the person with the knowledge is not infallible.
You can't have both.
Infallibly correct foreknowledge or free will.
One OR the other.
The fact that the foreknowledge exists means that freedom of choice is null and void - no force, no coercion, just the facts of reality.

When you say infallibly correct, do you mean if He where to say one thing it must happen no matter what?

 

[Hellblade8]

Why would a god need to test man's faith? What is it for that god needs confirmation?

He didn't, God said that Job would not betray him and he won the argument.

How does that get Yahweh off the hook? Why would he allow such a thing to occur? Is he that petty he must stoop to Satan's whims? That he would even consider doing such a thing?

What was so horrible about the experience? Surely the death of his children and wife was pretty bad, but God also gave him such blessings.

Yahweh was just as guilty as Satan, and just as cruel.

For testing one of His creations? And again, its not like Yahweh does this on a regular basis, it was a one time deal only.

So, the moral of the story is that it's completely ok to destroy someone's life or watch gleefully as someone else does it, as long as they're rewarded later, with "great gifts?"

You realized that the majority of Job's loss was material? He was never harmed in any of those incidents, and when it was done, God gave it all back and more. Job didn't get so much as a bee sting.

 

[SnakeLord]

This whole choice vs predetermination argument is problematic at best and rarely gets anywhere.

I would however like to ask you one question hellblade. Will this choice exist in heaven? I mean, can you choose to rape a woman etc?

 

[Hellblade8]

This whole choice vs predetermination argument is problematic at best and rarely gets anywhere.

I would however like to ask you one question hellblade. Will this choice exist in heaven? I mean, can you choose to rape a woman etc?

An interesting idea, apparently Lucifer made a choice to become evil. However, its also true that we have very little idea on what our body will be like in the next realm. If however, choosing to do so is possible physically, I would say yes its possible.

However, mercy be to those who does because Yahweh would be pissed on a level that made all others mere childish fits. For not only have you knowingly performed evil against another of pureness, destroyed your own pureness, but you have defiled heaven.

However, it should be noted as you will no longer be of the flesh that said person will not be tempted by such fleshy desires and thus doing so isn't out of some twisted form of lust, but an actualy choice to inflict that kind of harm upon another with a clear mind.

My guess is that even Lucifer's punishment will be light compared to those that commit the punishment that follows this man.

 

[(Q)]

He didn't, God said that Job would not betray him and he won the argument.

Who did god win an argument with - Satan? Isn't Satan one of gods creation?

So, something that god knew, therefore was predestined to occur, won an argument with someone else who also knew, because it was predestined to occur?

What was so horrible about the experience? Surely the death of his children and wife was pretty bad, but God also gave him such blessings.

Surely, it was pretty bad. And god makes it much worse by giving him a wife and children and then allowing them to be slaughtered in front of him?

You DON'T find that a horrible experience? Would you care much if it happened to you?

For testing one of His creations? And again, its not like Yahweh does this on a regular basis, it was a one time deal only.

What does it matter if it was one time or many? Can I go and slaughter a family, to win an argument, because it will only be a one time deal?

You realized that the majority of Job's loss was material? He was never harmed in any of those incidents, and when it was done, God gave it all back and more. Job didn't get so much as a bee sting.

So, humans are merely material, to easily be lost? He wasn't harmed at all, no mental anguish or stress related issues? Uh-huh.

Ah, so he merely wanted to have Job experience the thrill and excitement of having to watch his family slaughtered?

"Only joking, Job. Don't take it so hard."

 

[Enmos]

Im getting tired of this.
And now youre beginning to make a fool out of yourself too:

What was so horrible about the experience? Surely the death of his children and wife was pretty bad, but God also gave him such blessings.
You realized that the majority of Job's loss was material? He was never harmed in any of those incidents, and when it was done, God gave it all back and more. Job didn't get so much as a bee sting.

You arent serious i hope ?

However, mercy be to those who does because Yahweh would be pissed on a level that made all others mere childish fits. For not only have you knowingly performed evil against another of pureness, destroyed your own pureness, but you have defiled heaven.

Im starting to belief its better not to get into heaven, God seems to have a bad temper if you ask me..
What ever happened to forgiveness, and couldnt he make us all so that we cant sin anymore ? If not on earth then certainly in heaven ?

 

[Hellblade8]

Who did god win an argument with - Satan? Isn't Satan one of gods creation?

So, something that god knew, therefore was predestined to occur, won an argument with someone else who also knew, because it was predestined to occur?

Sure.

Surely, it was pretty bad. And god makes it much worse by giving him a wife and children and then allowing them to be slaughtered in front of him?

You DON'T find that a horrible experience? Would you care much if it happened to you?

They where not killed in front of him.

What does it matter if it was one time or many? Can I go and slaughter a family, to win an argument, because it will only be a one time deal?

If you can bring the dead back to life, then perhaps there might be a debate there. Not to mention that you didn't give them life, and really its not like God had destroyed their presence, their souls where just sent to Limbo until the coming of Christ.

So, humans are merely material, to easily be lost? He wasn't harmed at all, no mental anguish or stress related issues? Uh-huh.

I said most of the stuff he lost was material, I did not include that of his family.

Ah, so he merely wanted to have Job experience the thrill and excitement of having to watch his family slaughtered?

No.

"Only joking, Job. Don't take it so hard."

Which is not what He said. And again, God rewarded Job when He didn't even have to. Unless of course you know of any payment that Job gave to God in return for His protection yes?

 

[Enmos]

Your belief is starting to sound scary Hellblade8, and whats with that name anyway ?