Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

Hellblade8 said:
Sorry, but I'm afraid you have a misunderstanding.:(

Because God has perfect knowledge or some such does not disprove God or Freedom of Will. Allow me to explain. Lets say when God is weaving the timeline that He offers someone the two hard choices. Naturally, God knows that the person shall choose the wrong one, does that mean that God did not give the human the ability to choose? No it does not. Allow me to explain it in a more understandable manner. Go to a child and give him the option of eating a cake or a carrot. Assuming the child is typical for his age, he will choose the cake over the carrot. You still gave the child a choice, but you knew what the outcome was. This is the same manner of which God works in. He does not offer us only cake or carrot, but both, even if He knows what we will do.:)
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This is evil !
So what you are saying is that God pretend to give us a choice. It isnt actually a choice at all.
You left out the punishing of the kid that chose the cake.
What if your parents had done this to you. They would offer you the choice between a cake or a carrot knowing full-well you will choose the cake. Then, when you have chosen the cake, they would punish you badly (there no real equivalent to eternal damnation here i can make). And they would do this over and over with other choices ofcourse.
Isnt this really mean, if not pure evil ?
 
Originally Posted by Hellblade8
Sorry, but I'm afraid you have a misunderstanding.

Because God has perfect knowledge or some such does not disprove God or Freedom of Will. Allow me to explain. Lets say when God is weaving the timeline that He offers someone the two hard choices. Naturally, God knows that the person shall choose the wrong one, does that mean that God did not give the human the ability to choose? No it does not. Allow me to explain it in a more understandable manner. Go to a child and give him the option of eating a cake or a carrot. Assuming the child is typical for his age, he will choose the cake over the carrot. You still gave the child a choice, but you knew what the outcome was. This is the same manner of which God works in. He does not offer us only cake or carrot, but both, even if He knows what we will do.
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The misunderstanding is yours:
In the case above there's always a chance that the child might accept the carrot: therefore the knowledge of the parent is not exact or perfect.
If god has "perfect knowledge" then he knows exactly what our choices would be and we wouldn't have the choice - it would be pre-ordained by his knowledge.
 
Oli said:
The misunderstanding is yours:
In the case above there's always a chance that the child might accept the carrot: therefore the knowledge of the parent is not exact or perfect.
If god has "perfect knowledge" then he knows exactly what our choices would be and we wouldn't have the choice - it would be pre-ordained by his knowledge.
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Hellblade, this is a better point then mine lol forget mine..
 
Hellblade8 said:
True, and its actually true that there is more than one 'god', as stated in the bible there are many gods, but only Yahweh is the one true God.
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I agree with you that there is only one true God, but Yahweh,like all the other Gods and Goddesses is simply one group of peoples portrayal of God.
Study the early history of Yahweh and you will find he was simply one of many Gods worshipped by the ancient Canaanites, before the hebrew priesthood selected him to be their "one true God". It was done in an attempt to keep the people from returning to their paganistic ways.In other words ..control over the masses.

All the thousands of cases of Near Death Experiences and their overall pattern do not confirm much of the bibles portrayal of God ( often angry,warlike,jealous, cruel) If anything ,NDE's support much of gnostic belief and it also ties in with the core belief at the heart of most religions. So ,all religions are equally valid in this respect.

Yahweh is more of a reflection of the people who promoted him...very patriarchial, very inclusive, domineering....just like the bronze age hebrews were. I won't say all his qualities are bad, he did represent the loving father image often as well.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research06.html
 
Enmos said:
This is evil !
So what you are saying is that God pretend to give us a choice. It isnt actually a choice at all.
You left out the punishing of the kid that chose the cake.
What if your parents had done this to you. They would offer you the choice between a cake or a carrot knowing full-well you will choose the cake. Then, when you have chosen the cake, they would punish you badly (there no real equivalent to eternal damnation here i can make). And they would do this over and over with other choices ofcourse.
Isnt this really mean, if not pure evil ?
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No.

Knowing what someone will do and still letting them choose is not evil, its part of having free will. And furthermore, you are taking the example in a way its not meant to, you assume that you get punished for taking one over the other. This is not always the case. And furthermore, when it is the case, the chooser often knows what they should choose.

You complain about not having freedom, but when your told its been granted, you complain about having it?:confused:
 
Hellblade8 said:
No.

Knowing what someone will do and still letting them choose is not evil, its part of having free will. And furthermore, you are taking the example in a way its not meant to, you assume that you get punished for taking one over the other. This is not always the case. And furthermore, when it is the case, the chooser often knows what they should choose.

You complain about not having freedom, but when your told its been granted, you complain about having it?:confused:
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You came up with the example not i... and it is evil when its God thats doing it.
Now answer Oli's post.
 
Oli said:
The misunderstanding is yours:
In the case above there's always a chance that the child might accept the carrot: therefore the knowledge of the parent is not exact or perfect.
If god has "perfect knowledge" then he knows exactly what our choices would be and we wouldn't have the choice - it would be pre-ordained by his knowledge.
Click to expand...

You fail to understand the point I was making. The point is, if we assume that the child will choose the cake and the parents know this, we have made an example of how God is to mortals. This is logical.

And no, it is a choice. He did not make the choice, you made the choice. Knowing what someone will do ahead of time is not taking away free will. They are not connected. You make every choice, God does not do so. However, God knowing the hearts of mortals, knows exactly what choices we will make.

The problem here is that you seem to be under the impression if God knows what you're going to do, you assume that your path is pre-determined, this is incorrect and illogical as having knowledge of what someone does not change the fact that they made the desicion by their own mind, their own free will. God did not force you to do anything, you chose it yourself.

So as you can see, you are very much mistaken.
 
But he knew you were going to take the cake, wether it was your choice or not. He knew beforehand.
So how is that not misuse of power on Gods part ?
 
Enmos said:
You came up with the example not i... and it is evil when its God thats doing it.
Now answer Oli's post.
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Oh I already did, and rest assured you are incorrect.

Really I don't understand you here. You claim that having knowledge of someone doing something is truth as to it not being a choice. This is false. Take Doctor Who for example, because the Doctor knows what said famous person does, does this mean that said person did not make the choice to perform said act? Of course not, it just happens the Doctor holds knowledge of what said person does, it does not infact affect his actions in the least.
 
Your post just reinforces the popular sentence:
"God is like a mean kid, burning ants with a magnifying glass."
 
Hellblade8 said:
You claim that having knowledge of someone doing something is truth as to it not being a choice. This is false. Take Doctor Who for example, because the Doctor knows what said famous person does, does this mean that said person did not make the choice to perform said act? Of course not, it just happens the Doctor holds knowledge of what said person does, it does not infact affect his actions in the least.
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huh ? :rolleyes:

I can hear God snickering now, "Haha, im going to offer him the choice between a cake and a carrot.. while i already know hes going to take the cake. Boy, will he be sorry if he takes the cake! MUHAHAHA".
 
Enmos said:
huh ? :rolleyes:

I can hear God snickering now, "Haha, im going to offer him the choice between a cake and a carrot.. while i already know hes going to take the cake. Boy, will he be sorry if he takes the cake! MUHAHAHA".
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*sigh*

Again, its not some cruel joke, God has never acted in such a way, so why would you attempt to paint Him as such? You think He gets some sort of sick kick out of doing harm to people? Why don't you look into the bible and find me a passage where God is cruel and evil for no other purpose than for no other reason than just to be a dick. Then we'll talk.

And again, knowledge of choice does not mean you do not get a choice. The whole purpose is the choice. Will this person choose to be kind or wicked? Truthful or a liar? Father or rapist? Really, are you blaming God for when a man rapes a woman? Do you think it's God's fault that this man chose to rape when he knew it was wrong?:bugeye:
 
Hellblade8 said:
You fail to understand the point I was making. The point is, if we assume that the child will choose the cake and the parents know this, we have made an example of how God is to mortals. This is logical.
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Incorrect - you fail to understand what "perfect knowledge" means.

And no, it is a choice. He did not make the choice, you made the choice. Knowing what someone will do ahead of time is not taking away free will. They are not connected. You make every choice, God does not do so. However, God knowing the hearts of mortals, knows exactly what choices we will make.
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I didn't claim that god made the choice.
If god knows infallibly what we are going to choose then we do not make a choice - the script has been written.
We have no ACTUAL choice, just the illusion of one.

The problem here is that you seem to be under the impression if God knows what you're going to do, you assume that your path is pre-determined, this is incorrect and illogical as having knowledge of what someone does not change the fact that they made the desicion by their own mind, their own free will. God did not force you to do anything, you chose it yourself.
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If god knows what we are going to do then we cannot choose otherwise - or he'd be wrong and therefore fallible.
Perfect foreknowledge removes ALL choice.

So as you can see, you are very much mistaken.
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Dress it up how you like.
You are mistaken, I am not.

Hellblade8 said:
Oh I already did, and rest assured you are incorrect.
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Wrong!

Really I don't understand you here. You claim that having knowledge of someone doing something is truth as to it not being a choice. This is false. Take Doctor Who for example, because the Doctor knows what said famous person does, does this mean that said person did not make the choice to perform said act? Of course not, it just happens the Doctor holds knowledge of what said person does, it does not infact affect his actions in the least.
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Dr. Who?
Another fictional character.
And he knows because what he sees is history to him - he did not have foreknowledge because it's already written as far as he knows.
So could the person have chosen differently?
No.
Because that is what happened - according to the already written books that the Dr read.
Absolute knowledge of the future removes all free will.
 
Hellblade8 said:
*sigh*

Again, its not some cruel joke, God has never acted in such a way, so why would you attempt to paint Him as such? You think He gets some sort of sick kick out of doing harm to people? Why don't you look into the bible and find me a passage where God is cruel and evil for no other purpose than for no other reason than just to be a dick. Then we'll talk.

And again, knowledge of choice does not mean you do not get a choice. The whole purpose is the choice. Will this person choose to be kind or wicked? Truthful or a liar? Father or rapist? Really, are you blaming God for when a man rapes a woman? Do you think it's God's fault that this man chose to rape when he knew it was wrong?:bugeye:
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If God is all-knowing he knows if someone is going to sin when he is presented with the choice (by God as you put it). There are plenty of examples in the bible:

1. Ex. 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

2. Lev. 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.

3. Ex. 31:15: Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

4. Ex. 21:15: He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

5. Ex. 21:17: He that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

6. Ex. 22:19: Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

7. Lev. 20:13: If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have com-mitted an abomination: they shall surely be put to death.

8. Lev. 20:10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

9. Mark 16:16: He that believeth not, shall be damned.

10. Mal. 2:1-4: And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, ... behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.

As you put it God presents man with the choice, so "he puts the man in a dark alley and lets a woman pass through". God then presents him with two choices either rape the woman or leave her alone. When he knows fullwell that the man is going to rape the woman. He shouldnt have presented the choice to the man.
 
As you put it God presents man with the choice, so "he puts the man in a dark alley and lets a woman pass through". God then presents him with two choices either rape the woman or leave her alone. When he knows fullwell that the man is going to rape the woman. He shouldnt have presented the choice to the man.
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If god knows (infallibly) then there is no freewill, no choice.
 
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