Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

[(Q)]

Again, its not some cruel joke, God has never acted in such a way, so why would you attempt to paint Him as such? You think He gets some sort of sick kick out of doing harm to people? Why don't you look into the bible and find me a passage where God is cruel and evil for no other purpose than for no other reason than just to be a dick. Then we'll talk.

The story of Job is a perfect example.

 

[Hellblade8]

Incorrect - you fail to understand what "perfect knowledge" means.

No, not really.

I didn't claim that god made the choice.
If god knows infallibly what we are going to choose then we do not make a choice - the script has been written.
We have no ACTUAL choice, just the illusion of one.

No its not. You are failing to understand here. Just because someone knows 100% accuracy of what you're going to do it does not take away from the choice of the one choosing it.

If god knows what we are going to do then we cannot choose otherwise - or he'd be wrong and therefore fallible.
Perfect foreknowledge removes ALL choice.

Its not about you doing something that God doesn't want you to. Its about you doing something and God already knows what will happen.

Dr. Who?
Another fictional character.
And he knows because what he sees is history to him - he did not have foreknowledge because it's already written as far as he knows.
So could the person have chosen differently?
No.
Because that is what happened - according to the already written books that the Dr read.
Absolute knowledge of the future removes all free will.

You are incorrect. The person did have a choice, always had a choice, and will always have a choice. However, the Doctor knows what said person chose and his future is based off the choices of that man. Time isn't a line where every person does this and life is determined, time plays out via the actions made by the individuals. That is how time works. Its not a script to a play, its a journal. Just because one person knows what will happen does not mean that free will is not there.

 

[Benauld]

And no, it is a choice. He did not make the choice, you made the choice. Knowing what someone will do ahead of time is not taking away free will. They are not connected. You make every choice, God does not do so. However, God knowing the hearts of mortals, knows exactly what choices we will make.

Try thinking of it this way: You can choose A OR B. You choose A, and everything is fine and dandy because God knew you were going to make that choice. Right? Now, re-run it - you "choose" option B instead, except that God still knew that, that was the choice you were going to make. So, God already knows whether you are good or bad by the choices that you will make in the future. Therefore, free will is redundant, because you could never choose anything other, than that which is already known to God.

 

[Hellblade8]

The story of Job is a perfect example.

How so?

The story of Job was about testing a man's faith. And by the way, it was Satan who actually performed the deeds, not Yahweh Himself. And to top it all off, Yahweh just didn't let Satan screw Job over and then leave him be, He rewarded Job with great gifts.

Of course, lets all forget that part.

 

[Enmos]

How so?

The story of Job was about testing a man's faith. And by the way, it was Satan who actually performed the deeds, not Yahweh Himself. And to top it all off, Yahweh just didn't let Satan screw Job over and then leave him be, He rewarded Job with great gifts.

Of course, lets all forget that part.

The reward is not the point here, God was still being an evil kid. And although God didnt do it he did order Satan to do it, HE LET SATAN DO IT.
Maybe he didnt want to dirty his hands himself ? bah!

 

[Oli]

No, not really.

Obviously you are failing to understand since you keep arguing.

No its not. You are failing to understand here. Just because someone knows 100% accuracy of what you're going to do it does not take away from the choice of the one choosing it.

If he knows with 100% accuracy then we cannot choose other than what his knowledge would be - or he wouldn't be 100% accurate.
Where then, lies the choice?
Absolute knowledge of the future negates free will absolutely.

Its not about you doing something that God doesn't want you to. Its about you doing something and God already knows what will happen.

If he knows then we cannot have a choice - because if we chose differently he'd be wrong.
Wherein lies your problem with comprehension?

You are incorrect. The person did have a choice, always had a choice, and will always have a choice. However, the Doctor knows what said person chose and his future is based off the choices of that man. Time isn't a line where every person does this and life is determined, time plays out via the actions made by the individuals. That is how time works. Its not a script to a play, its a journal. Just because one person knows what will happen does not mean that free will is not there.

If anyone KNOWS then there can be no free will - otherwise the knowledge is not absolute.
If choices are known before hand then it is a a script - a set of rails on which life and everything else runs with no possibility of deviation.

 

[Enmos]

Try thinking of it this way: You can choose A OR B. You choose A, and everything is fine and dandy because God knew you were going to make that choice. Right? Now, re-run it - you "choose" option B instead, except that God still knew that, that was the choice you were going to make. So, God already knows whether you are good or bad by the choices that you will make in the future. Therefore, free will is redundant, because you could never choose anything other, than that which is already known to God.

Thats what is wanted to say, perfectly worded Benauld!

 

[S.A.M.]

Try thinking of it this way: You can choose A OR B. You choose A, and everything is fine and dandy because God knew you were going to make that choice. Right? Now, re-run it - you "choose" option B instead, except that God still knew that, that was the choice you were going to make. So, God already knows whether you are good or bad by the choices that you will make in the future. Therefore, free will is redundant, because you could never choose anything other, than that which is already known to God.

Did you know what you were going to choose?

 

[Benauld]

Did you know what you were going to choose?

No, but apparently God did!

 

[S.A.M.]

No, but apparently God did!

So why does it matter ? If you did not know, it would make no difference to your decision would it?

 

[Hellblade8]

If God is all-knowing he knows if someone is going to sin when he is presented with the choice (by God as you put it). There are plenty of examples in the bible:

1. Ex. 22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Outdated.

2. Lev. 24:16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death.

Outdated.

3. Ex. 31:15: Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Outdated.

4. Ex. 21:15: He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

Outdated.

5. Ex. 21:17: He that curseth his father or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Outdated.

6. Ex. 22:19: Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Outdated.

7. Lev. 20:13: If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have com-mitted an abomination: they shall surely be put to death.

Outdated.

8. Lev. 20:10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

Outdated.

9. Mark 16:16: He that believeth not, shall be damned.

Outdated.

10. Mal. 2:1-4: And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. If you will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart to give glory to my name, ... behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.

Outdated.

On top of this, these where not the commands to all the people of earth, but rather to a specific group of people we know as the Jews. The reason for these harsher rules is actually a result of a contract between God and the Jews where should He rescue them from the Egyptians, they shall follow His laws and His rules. They went to Him and asked God to dig them out. And considering that the Jews didn't die off via death by stones, I somewhat doubt they had much problems.

As you put it God presents man with the choice, so "he puts the man in a dark alley and lets a woman pass through". God then presents him with two choices either rape the woman or leave her alone. When he knows fullwell that the man is going to rape the woman. He shouldnt have presented the choice to the man.

So what is this? Suddenly you blame someone else for the actions of this man?!

This man knows it is wrong to rape the woman does he not? Christian or not, this man knows what is right and what is wrong, and yet HE CHOSE TO RAPE THE WOMAN. It was not written that he would and thus he had no choice, this is not how life or God works.

Allow me to repeat this: Just because God knows what someone will do, it does not mean its written in some large book that forces the man to choose this, it is that God knows what the man will do based on God knows how the man will think. Its like He is in essence, reading the thoughts of every person on the planet. Life is not predestined.

 

[Benauld]

So why does it matter ? If you did not know, it would make no difference to your decision would it?

No, but I wouldn't be able to freely choose one or the other...because it would already be PREdetermined by the very knowledge of God.

 

[S.A.M.]

No, but I wouldn't be able to freely choose one or the other...because it would already be PREdetermined by the very knowledge of God.

But you don't know that, so it does not matter.

 

[Hellblade8]

The reward is not the point here, God was still being an evil kid. And although God didnt do it he did order Satan to do it, HE LET SATAN DO IT.
Maybe he didnt want to dirty his hands himself ? bah!

Many things wrong with that.

1) I find it odd that you complain so much about God messing with the lives of mortals, or how He's such a dick, and yet when He walks off to let us do our own thing, you complain when another force comes along and messes with us and says that God should be in trouble because He didn't protect us from Satan...is this not a double standard? In fact, how can you even accuse God of anything when Job had never actually paid God for the service of protection from Satan?

2) If God had wanted to do it Himself, He would have, He apparently didn't have a problem with commiting genocide before.

 

[Oli]

Allow me to repeat this: Just because God knows what someone will do, it does not mean its written in some large book that forces the man to choose this, it is that God knows what the man will do based on God knows how the man will think.

If it is KNOWN then it might as well be written - the choice was not there in the first place.
It's not a question of force - the knowledge itself means that freewill no longer exists, only the illusion of it.

Its like He is in essence, reading the thoughts of every person on the planet. Life is not predestined.

So we've gone from god knowing to god reading our minds AS WE MAKE THE DECISION?
Make your mind up - he either KNOWS or he doesn't.

 

[Hellblade8]

Try thinking of it this way: You can choose A OR B. You choose A, and everything is fine and dandy because God knew you were going to make that choice. Right? Now, re-run it - you "choose" option B instead, except that God still knew that, that was the choice you were going to make. So, God already knows whether you are good or bad by the choices that you will make in the future. Therefore, free will is redundant, because you could never choose anything other, than that which is already known to God.

No it isn't.

Look, it isn't that God makes you choose anything. You chose it, Him having knowledge of it does not mean that you cannot choose to change the sequence, it means that you won't.

 

[Oli]

Look, it isn't that God makes you choose anything.

The foreknowledge itself negates the options.

You chose it, Him having knowledge of it does not mean that you cannot choose to change the sequence, it means that you won't.

What difference does it make between can't and don't (because if he knows we won't then we can't).

 

[Benauld]

No it isn't.

Look, it isn't that God makes you choose anything. You chose it, Him having knowledge of it does not mean that you cannot choose to change the sequence, it means that you won't.

But if a wanted to change the sequence, I couldn't because God already knows of the "change" and it becomes, via his knowledge...predetermined.

 

[Hellblade8]

If it is KNOWN then it might as well be written - the choice was not there in the first place.
It's not a question of force - the knowledge itself means that freewill no longer exists, only the illusion of it.

Again, wrong.

Take for example your post, lets sat I knew that you would respond. Now, if I claimed that I know you will respond to me again, lets say you won't in an attempt to prove me wrong. But if I keep this knowledge to myself, then you would of course still make the same choice and choose to respond. Of course, if I told you about it, I would also know how you will react.

The choice is still there. You are still making a choice.

So we've gone from god knowing to god reading our minds AS WE MAKE THE DECISION?
Make your mind up - he either KNOWS or he doesn't.

*Sigh*

He does know. I am attempting to explain it in a more understandable way and I apparently failed. What I am saying is that life is not pre-determined, God just knows what is going to happen based on how we act, and our surrondings. And yes, He can read our minds (well, it says heart or soul in the bible, but its the same basic thing really). If you recall God does not look to the outside of a person, but only looks at what the person is like on the inside, how he acts, thinks, and feels. This is why God cannot stand wicked people, it is to him as a a horribly deformed person is to us.

 

[Hellblade8]

But if a wanted to change the sequence, I couldn't because God already knows of the "change" and it becomes, via his knowledge...predetermined.

Correct, but you still made a choice to attemptively defy God right?