Godless:
See what I mean? is that the statement you made is so freaking vaque, that god's purpose seems to be what ever the hell one with political, religious power dictates.
Yes, I see your viewpoints, I've been there and understand why and how you think it. I believe nothing involving man is 100% perfect. Even the prophets' messages. Once man receives the message, it is automatically going to be tainted somewhat. When someone speaks out of anger, sadness, excitement, that message can be tainted. Only when the person speaks and is at total peace, totally rested, totally awake, yet totally calm, etc can the message be portrayed more correctly. And with different misinterpretations through the ages, it's sure enough going to lead to misunderstandings. Life isn't as simple as, 'that story is messed up, so there's nothing to it'. Everyone makes mistakes, even children of God.
Godless:
Is it ethical to manipulate by deceit?
Again, do I have to stress it every time, this is my beliefs when we're talking of the things we don't know like the makeup of God. When it comes to morality and such, which is why we have religion and subsequently a religion forum, then I believe the truth can be found by man.
Godless:
Is it ethical to live of fear, because they dictate that one ends up in a hell, because on does not believe their rhetoric?
Let me state first, if you read my other posts, I don't believe God sends anyone to hell for not knowing his rules. You didn't know of Him, therefore you can't be punished for not following His rules. No, I'm not a believer in hellfire preaching. I believe it stirs, or can stir up hate against the church from the more rebellious people as I was. And my view of hell also differs from the typical Christian's. I view hell a lot more lightly than most. Even you among us who debate my viewpoints, I don't see anything wrong with it so how much would my God not see anything wrong with it? You in turn are serving God whether you think it or not. By testing my faith, giving me an opportunity to test it and grow, then you are helping me. You are the test givers. Even evil or antagonistic doings can be turned around and made good. But life of evil and good is not black and white so there's a lot more I could describe about it than that. But even the devil serves God by giving us an opportunity to be tested. He is like the drill sergeant pushing us and testing us to our limits. Even though it seems cruel, the devil helps you grow. He is the tester. But for your average person, that is probably not a healthy view of him, as a good doer by doing evil. He should be stayed away from. Take no more test than you are ready to take or else you will surely fail. And the devil is not a being as I see it, he/it is just merely the things that test you in life and evil is merely the wrong choice in life, the wrong answer to the question.
Godless:
But god is not physical, otherwise it be dead by now
God can't die. But whatever you want to call it, God has rules for Himself just as we do. He is the creator of the laws of physics and even the physics and laws that we don't know, and He abides by them. Just as His creation abides by the laws of physics.
wesmorris:
If "god" created space-time, then "god" exists indepently of space-time and thus doesn't require space-time to exist. If it doesn't require space-time to exist, it doesn't require an attribute like "physical" to exist.
No, not necessarily. We can create something here on earth obviously. And we do not exist independently of it. It can be manipulated by us, commanded by us, etc. God is pretty much the same boat with us. He exists with us. One with us. We are a part of God, and so is the universe. It all makes up part of God, it is His creation. I can see how and why you think that. The way I see it, you're partly right. He is our father, we are from Him, but separate. We are like the 1/2 of His 1. He is like a number in the system, the ultimate number, non-deducable, and we are as a fraction of it. But are part of the same numbering system, so to speak.
wesmorris:
Further, I think it's basically impossible for something of space-time to remotely relate to something that is independent of space-time. As such, our lack of familiarity renders all argument moot because comprehension is impossible unless we can relate to the object of it.
This renders any attempt to discuss such an entity pure speculation.
But if you are faithful you shouldn't care. If you care about proof, you're not faithful.
Yes, of course, we are speculating here on the makeup of God. But yes, I am faithful but I do care because there's people just like I was interested in the makeup of God. If I knew, it would fill my own curiosity and others'. It doesn't matter how faithful you are, you always have curiosity. I have no doubts but always want to drill further into why this and why that, it never ends. Infinite discovery can be the mother of curiosity and temporary satisfaction here on earth to us but it can also drive the mind crazy as mine is/was sometimes. 'Why this, and how does this influence the why, and why is that so?'. Seems to never stop. At the risk of sounding like a lunatic, infinity drives me crazy sometimes. It is neverending, no peace at the end, no feeling of conquering and reaching a goal with the satisfaction of completing it. To see no end to something can drive someone mad. So I am glad we don't live infinitely. We would have to be stupid to put up with that. Just as the problem with pi, we see it as virtually infinite. While a fool would keep on solving the problem and wasting His time, the wise/smart man realizes when to stop and doesn't get sunctioned into the problem, he can see he is just wasting his time on an infinite problem. A wise man looks far ahead before jumping into what he is about to do. And a wise man is also one troubled with curiosity as we here are. The foolish do not wander of these things. They either don't have the capacity to look farther ahead or just don't care. Just as an animal has no ability to see far ahead in it's limited thinking, so don't the less intelligent of us not see as far ahead as the intelligent. But the less intelligent also have a gift of freedom from the constant questions going on in the heads of the intelligent or curious. We are all put here with equal opportunity. One man's so-called gift can be both a blessing and a curse and so can his disability or disadvantage, everyone is equal. I will just stop there. I could rather go on since too little of someone's opinion can be very misunderstood without the full of it but I could write a book if I let myself.
Huwy:
Sometimes it saddens me to think that if all we atheists put our heads together and stopped arguing with "believers" - we could pool our time, logic, and energy, and find a cure for cancer.
So why find a cure for cancer? So you can live longer? Why do you want to live longer? So you can carry out your non-existant entity's beliefs? You're not thinking far enough ahead. So what about when you cure cancer and nothing can kill man, you are immortal, what then? What is the purpose? Where is the end? The goal? That would drive me crazy. What is life without a purpose?
