Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

mythbuster -
all you are saying, when you remove the details, is that it is impossible for God to be present everywhere and not be present everywhere. It is the same problem posed by saying God can't be a square and a circle at the same time, or make a rock he can't lift, saying, God can't be anything that we consider paradoxical.

This is very trusting of the infallible mind of the human - did I say "infallible" and "human" in the same sentence? Now that is an oxymoron.
 
Did God create free will? How then does it itself have free will?

1. God created everything.
2. God created free-will.
3. Before creating free-will, obviously god didn't possess free-will then.
4. If God didn't create free-will, he isn't the ultimate creator.
5. If God created free will then God had no choice in doing so.



So It must have been predestined to create it.


If theist argue God had free-will since eternity, then wait a min, Free-will existed since eternity? God never created it? Or did he just add Evil to it?

This one is interesting, any comments?
 
The idea that God is a made-up concept to soothe our fears makes no sense, since we reject the existence of other made-up figures that might, likewise, make us feel better. A comparison between the existence of God (a non-contingent being) and the existence of Santa Claus or invisible pink unicorns (contingent beings) fails on many levels, not the least of which is that their fundamental natures (non-physical vs. physical) are vastly different. The idea that there is no evidence to support the existence of God is clearly false. The evidence was clear enough for me to convert from agnosticism to deism in the absence of efforts by theists. Anthony Flew, a lifelong proponent of atheism recently became a deist on the basis of evidence for design. In subsequent interviews, Flew stated that he "had to go where the evidence leads." Philosophical arguments like invisible pink unicorns are great ways to avoid examining evidence, but such an approach is ultimately dishonest.
 
ggazoo said:
A comparison between the existence of God (a non-contingent being) and the existence of Santa Claus or invisible pink unicorns (contingent beings) fails on many levels, not the least of which is that their fundamental natures (non-physical vs. physical) are vastly different.
And these differences are.... ?

ggazoo said:
The idea that there is no evidence to support the existence of God is clearly false.
And this evidence is.... ?

ggazoo said:
The evidence was clear enough for me to convert from agnosticism to deism in the absence of efforts by theists.
And this evidence is.... ?

ggazoo said:
Anthony Flew, a lifelong proponent of atheism recently became a deist on the basis of evidence for design.
And this evidence is.... ?

ggazoo said:
In subsequent interviews, Flew stated that he "had to go where the evidence leads."
One man's trip down the irrational is not evidence.
Unless there really is evidence. In which case...
The evidence is.... ?

ggazoo said:
Philosophical arguments like invisible pink unicorns are great ways to avoid examining evidence, but such an approach is ultimately dishonest.
Claiming them (arguments such as invisible pink unicorns) as such is merely a (not-great) way of avoiding the issue they raise. And is thus ultimately dishonest.
 
Evidence, evidence, evidence... and therin lies the difference between atheists and Christans. Christians go on faith, whereas atheists need proof, and that's fine either way.

Atheists seem to go out of their way to disprove God. Instead of trying to prove God, Christians spend their time and effort just believing, which is difficult for non-believers to accept, and that's cool too, as everyone is different.

One of the arguments that I've found interesting is that "for thousands of years no one has found evidence or proof of God". Mostly true. But biblicaly, thousands of years in Gods eyes go by in a second.

But hey, that's just another theory.
 
ggazoo said:
Evidence, evidence, evidence... and therin lies the difference between atheists and Christans. Christians go on faith, whereas atheists need proof, and that's fine either way.
Therein indeed. But there is still the fascinating question of what drives someone to accept something as true without any proof whatsoever.
And therein lies the interest.

ggazoo said:
Atheists seem to go out of their way to disprove God.
No they don't. They merely do not have a belief in God.
Pick anything for which there is no evidence and then try and disprove their existence? You can't. So most don't try.
Those that do try and disprove God only succeed, possibly, in disproving the existence of a very specifically defined God (including in those definitions what that God might be bound by - such as logic.) But since the definition of "God" appears to be different (slightly or significantly) for each person, and that there are an infinite number of possible "God"s that might exist (all of which have the one same quality of lack of evidence) it is difficult to disprove them all. ;)

ggazoo said:
Instead of trying to prove God, Christians spend their time and effort just believing, which is difficult for non-believers to accept, and that's cool too, as everyone is different.
Indeed. To each their own.
Atheists generally don't spend any time or effort in believing - and most couldn't give two hoots (let alone three or even a whopping four hoots) about religion. But some of us are strangely fascinated by what drives people to "believe" something as true in the absence of evidence.

ggazoo said:
One of the arguments that I've found interesting is that "for thousands of years no one has found evidence or proof of God". Mostly true. But biblicaly, thousands of years in Gods eyes go by in a second.
And your evidence for this is...?
And how is this an argument for or against God?

ggazoo said:
But hey, that's just another theory.
No it isn't as it can not be verified, falsified, measured, used for prediction..... etc.
 
One key aspect of free will I have realized in my short life (only 18) is that people tend to think free will means absolute control over your life. I think free will is the ability to make you own choice given your current situation. For example you say someone stole something of yours(out of control) you can decide to do nothing or possibly call the cops. All I am trying to say is that free will only means you have the ability to make a choice given the situation which is often out of your control. This also leads to my particular view of heaven and hell. While alive, we have the ability to effect others lives. We can lead others into positive situations where they can exert their free will given the situation or negative ones. If our actions tend to place others in a good place hopefully after we die overall we will help contribute to placing future people in positive situations. An obvious example is Dr. Martin Luther King helps black be in better situations long after he died. My heaven in hell don't literally exist, rather they are the effects of our actions on the world after we die. So rather than believing in God, one I believe in the power of cause and effect. I choose to be what I consider good since out of my free will I desire for my effects to be what I consider positive. Being good to be accepted into Heaven should lead to condemnation, your not really being good assuming Christians are right a hell exist. The goodness that comes from people who are doing it to go to heaven is vain and not genuine, another argument against the principals of Christianity.
 
oxypunk

You make very good points, especially for one of 18 years. Kudos!

Part of the problem is that the world is still run with religious thought in place. Our society has been and continues to be completely based on those thoughts and decision making processes, if you could label it such.

So, most believe their gods control their lives, hence they never have to take responsibilty for their actions. So, they can commit whatever crime they want and plead ignorance, since it is ignorance they rely upon to live their lives. Their "sins" will always be washed away with their confessions to their gods, and they can continue to go on committing those crimes.

An atheist must always take responsibility for his actions since he knows there are no gods controlling him. He will decide for himself whether or not criminal actions warrant the way of life he wishes to lead. He'll use reason to judge if doing harm to others is rational, since he would also have harm done to him if he thought it so.

The conclusion and decision is quite obvious.
 
Cris said:
Proof that the Christian god cannot exist.

This is a revision and refinement of a post I made over a year ago but there are so many new members now that I felt it worth a revisit.

Omniscience vs. Human Free will. A Paradox.

Omniscience: Perfect knowledge of past and future events.
Free will: Freedom to choose between alternatives without external coercion.
Paradox: Statements or events that have contradictory and inconsistent properties.

Proposal:

Christianity cannot claim that God is omniscient and also claim that humans have free will. The claims form a paradox, a falsehood.

Reasoning:

If God is omniscient then even before we are born God will have complete knowledge of every decision we are going to make.

Any apparent choice we make regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior is predetermined. This must be true to satisfy the assertion that God is omniscient. Effectively we have no choice in the matter. What we think is free will is an illusion. Our choices have been coerced since we exist and act according to the will of God.

Alternatively if human free will is valid, meaning that the outcome of our decisions is not pre-determined or coerced, then God cannot be omniscient, since he would not know in advance our decisions.

Question:

If God knows the decision of every individual, before they are born, regarding the acceptance or denial of Jesus as a savior, then why does he create one set of individuals destined for heaven and another set destined for eternal damnation? This seems unjust, perverse and particularly evil.

Conclusions:

If God is omniscient then humans do not have free will (see argument above) and the apparent arbitrary choice of God to condemn many individuals to eternal damnation is evil. I.e. God does not possess the property of omni benevolence and is therefore not worth our attention.

If humans have true free will then God cannot be omniscient (see argument above). If he is not omniscient then he also cannot be omnipotent since knowledge of the future is a prerequisite for total action. Without these abilities God can no longer be deemed a god – i.e. God does not exist.

If humans do not have free will then the choice of whether to choose Jesus as a savior or not makes total nonsense of Christianity since the choice is pre-determined and we are merely puppets at the hands of an evil monster.

Cris

This form of Christian doctrine is called predestination accepted by calvinists, so your position does not prove a christian God can not exist -- unless you say say presbyterians are non-christians.

from the source:

Predestination is a religious idea, under which the relationship between the beginning of things and the destiny of things is discussed. Its religious nature distinguishes it from other ideas concerning determinism and free will, and related concepts. In particular, predestination concerns God's decision to create and to govern Creation, and the extent to which God's decisions determine ahead of time what the destiny of groups and individuals will be.

Christians do not agree about this doctrine. The sects of christianity divide this way:

calvinism -- presbyterian (not sure about lutherans) - no free will ever -- God decides who will be saved and sticks with his plan.

salvation by grace: baptists, methodists -- free will until you get saved then God controls your will -- once saved always saved

arminian -- church of christ, christian church, pentacostal denominations -- always have free will -- once saved you can lose it.
 
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Woe to the believers of God! - You are only giving the highest insult to God. - Shame on you! - Belief, itself, cancels out the whole premise of God being real because noone would be forced to be only a believer if everyone already knew that God was real. - Knowing someone before you can trust them must apply to believing in God as well. - In fact, I have to know someone really well before I can believe in them and fully trust them. - Belief in God without ever getting to know God first is a futile effort that will never amount to anything worthwhile! - A real God would be the most visible character the world had ever seen and every single person would know everything that they ever desired to know from being taught directly by God with no ignorant person getting in God's way because that person could only teach a very limited personal opinion about God. - Noone in the world can ever know what God is thinking. - There is no telepathy power strong enough for anyone to do that. - Yet, religious people are telling the worst lies of all by telling lies in God's name while "they" ask believers to give them money. - Apparently, "Thou shalt not steal" doesn't mean that much to them anymore. - Think about it. - Televangelists are collecting and spending the money given to them by believers while telling lies and wanting people to believe that God will bless believers for giving money to televangelists. - God doesn't even care about money. - God already has everything. - Besides, money is only a symbol of trust that only has value between people. - Yet money cannot buy love or happiness, nor can anyone take money with them to the other side when they die. - The main reason that televangelists need to get all of their money from believers is to keep from earning their own. - Believers would make them very happy by giving them easy money so they would never have to work for a living. - Besides, ministries are really using most of the donations to pay for all of their expensive bills within the ministry like rent, broadcast airtime, satellite usage, etc... and to pay for all of their employees' wages as well as their own high salaries. - My name is Mr. Fide but you can call me Bona.
 
I'm not religious, I just enjoy the screwy logical possibilities of the concept of omnipotence.
 
Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl. Soon he will rape, torture, and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind not occurring at precisely this moment, it will happen in a few hours, or days at most. Such is the confidence we can draw from the statistical laws that govern the lives of six billion human beings.
The same statistics also suggest that this girl’s parents believe -- at this very moment -- that an all-powerful and all-loving God is watching over them and their family. Are they right to believe this? Is it good that they believe this?
No.
The entirety of atheism is contained in this response. Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply a refusal to deny the obvious. Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job. It carries with it an aura of petulance and insensitivity. It is, moreover, a job that the atheist does not want.

It is worth noting that no one ever need identify himself as a non-astrologer or a non-alchemist. Consequently, we do not have words for people who deny the validity of these pseudo-disciplines. Likewise, “atheism” is a term that should not even exist. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make when in the presence of religious dogma. The atheist is merely a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (eighty-seven percent of the population) who claim to “never doubt the existence of God” should be obliged to present evidence for his existence -- and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day. Only the atheist appreciates just how uncanny our situation is: most of us believe in a God that is every bit as specious as the gods of Mount Olympus;

no person, whatever his or her qualifications, can seek public office in the United States without pretending to be certain that such a God exists; and much of what passes for public policy in our country conforms to religious taboos and superstitions appropriate to a medieval theocracy. Our circumstance is abject, indefensible, and terrifying. It would be hilarious if the stakes were not so high.

Consider: the city of New Orleans was recently destroyed by hurricane Katrina. At least a thousand people died, tens of thousands lost all their earthly possessions, and over a million have been displaced. It is safe to say that almost every person living in New Orleans at the moment Katrina struck believed in an omnipotent, omniscient, and compassionate God. But what was God doing while a hurricane laid waste to their city? Surely He heard the prayers of those elderly men and women who fled the rising waters for the safety of their attics, only to be slowly drowned there. These were people of faith. These were good men and women who had prayed throughout their lives. Only the atheist has the courage to admit the obvious: these poor people spent their lives in the company of an imaginary friend.

Of course, there had been ample warning that a storm “of biblical proportions” would strike New Orleans, and the human response to the ensuing disaster was tragically inept. But it was inept only by the light of science. Advance warning of Katrina’s path was wrested from mute Nature by meteorological calculations and satellite imagery. God told no one of his plans. Had the residents of New Orleans been content to rely on the beneficence of the Lord, they wouldn’t have known that a killer hurricane was bearing down upon them until they felt the first gusts of wind on their faces. And yet, a poll conducted by The Washington Post found that eighty percent of Katrina’s survivors claim that the event has only strengthened their faith in God.
As hurricane Katrina was devouring New Orleans, nearly a thousand Shiite pilgrims were trampled to death on a bridge in Iraq. There can be no doubt that these pilgrims believed mightily in the God of the Koran. Indeed, their lives were organized around the indisputable fact of his existence: their women walked veiled before him; their men regularly murdered one another over rival interpretations of his word. It would be remarkable if a single survivor of this tragedy lost his faith. More likely, the survivors imagine that they were spared through God’s grace.

Only the atheist recognizes the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved. Only the atheist realizes how morally objectionable it is for survivors of a catastrophe to believe themselves spared by a loving God, while this same God drowned infants in their cribs. Because he refuses to cloak the reality of the world’s suffering in a cloying fantasy of eternal life, the atheist feels in his bones just how precious life is -- and, indeed, how unfortunate it is that millions of human beings suffer the most harrowing abridgements of their happiness for no good reason at all.

Of course, people of faith regularly assure one another that God is not responsible for human suffering. But how else can we understand the claim that God is both omniscient and omnipotent? There is no other way, and it is time for sane human beings to own up to this. This is the age-old problem of theodicy, of course, and we should consider it solved. If God exists, either He can do nothing to stop the most egregious calamities, or He does not care to. God, therefore, is either impotent or evil.

Pious readers will now execute the following pirouette: God cannot be judged by merely human standards of morality. But, of course, human standards of morality are precisely what the faithful use to establish God’s goodness in the first place. And any God who could concern himself with something as trivial as gay marriage, or the name by which he is addressed in prayer, is not as inscrutable as all that. If He exists, the God of Abraham is not merely unworthy of the immensity of creation; he is unworthy even of man.

There is another possibility, of course, and it is both the most reasonable and least odious: the biblical God is a fiction. As Richard Dawkins has observed, we are all atheists with respect to Zeus and Thor. Only the atheist has realized that the biblical god is no different. Consequently, only the atheist is compassionate enough to take the profundity of the world’s suffering at face value.
It is terrible that we all die and lose everything we love; it is doubly terrible that so many human beings suffer needlessly while alive. That so much of this suffering can be directly attributed to religion -- to religious hatreds, religious wars, religious delusions, and religious diversions of scarce resources -- is what makes atheism a moral and intellectual necessity. It is a necessity, however, that places the atheist at the margins of society. The atheist, by merely being in touch with reality, appears shamefully out of touch with the fantasy life of his neighbors.

Sam Harris
This is an excerpt from An Atheist Manifesto, to be published at www.truthdig.com in December.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/there-is-no-god-and-you-_b_8459.html
 
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Ah! Good article Uncle, next time just give us the link and help save some bandwidth.
;)

Godless
 
Indeed, that is succinctly stated. For a moment I thought you wrote it Uncle.
 
Some of you should grow up and stop being babies. Listen, evil happens for a reason. If we had no evil, what challenge would we have here on earth? Evil is nothing but challenge. When you go to work and faced with struggles, negative prospects that are abound, they are to overcome. When you play a game in God mode, what is there to do, where is the challenge without someone opposing you? You get bored, it is dull. There has to be evil in the world, there has to be someone to test you. You are here for a reason and you may not think it but more than likely before your present state we were all nothing more than likely, just a plan about to be drawn and now we have a chance at something. Would you blame your father/mother for bringing you in this world? Yeah, it sucks sometimes. Without them, you'd have no life, no shot at challenges to face, therefore, no reward in the afterlife, or no way to grow spiritually, but do you blame them once you have seen and experienced them and what they went through. You will also on your day of judgement see the pain in the eyes of God and will understand and forgive God for your blasphemy and other sins. When you die and redeemed with a new version of life which you couldn't conceive of here on earth. What a sad life to think we are here for nothing, are nothing, and nothing is to become of us if we do better or do worse to ourselves and/or others in the afterlife.
But evil has to happen. Without one, there can be no other. It is the way of the universe. Without a magnetic north, there can be no magnetic south. Without a 0, there can be no 1 or any # after it since 0 may not be a number but negates a positive number to show that it is a number. There has to be opposites in this universe. There is no force without a counter-force. No moving object without an object that pushed it to move. Without the afterlife, there is no life. Without good, there is no bad. Any energy derived to create life, there has to be an energy of equal or greater force in the universe, to create it. That is the way of the universe. Without an object/force to negate another object/force, you will have a nonexistant object/force. As in 0 + 0 = 0, you have nothing. But 1 + 0 = 1, you have an existant force/object with can be deduced. I think the math system is the gears of the universe. Every object can be declared by a number and every force by a number and be predicted by only one, The mathematician. Therefore there is no random. By the one who started it, knows all, and all the properties and values of all variables involved, on He can predict or know what the turnout will be.
And pertaining to free will, yes, we have free will. If you wrote a PC prog with a character that had supposed free will, you will know in advance what he is going to do but the character himself wouldn't. You wrote the program, and you input say, "if character x, mood=happy, energy level = good, iq=100, morality=%k, THEN say 'woohoo", or whatever, since you're the one declaring all the properties and know the variables involved, you will know what's going to the character before the character knows. And being the creator of all, you built the PC from the ground up also, IC chips and all, so you know it all. And if you know how the RND program on the PC functions since you wrote it, no prob either. And if it's based on true random sequences like on the quantum level, you made quantum physics also being the God of all so you know all the variables. Maybe that's not the best metaphor but hopefully you get my point.
 
Some of you should grow up and stop being babies.

Some of us have, that's why we became atheists.


When you play a game in God mode, what is there to do, where is the challenge without someone opposing you? You get bored, it is dull.

So god invented evil to enteratain himself?

You will also on your day of judgement see the pain in the eyes of God and will understand and forgive God for your blasphemy and other sins.

Let me get this, the same sob diety that invented evil for his entertainment is going to judge us on our struggle with evil? Very absurd don't you think?

But evil has to happen. Without one, there can be no other. It is the way of the universe.

If it has to happen, then god can't posibly be omnipotent, since he couldn't create a universe without evil! Since he created evil anyway, don't that make him evil as well?

And pertaining to free will, yes, we have free will. If you wrote a PC prog with a character that had supposed free will, you will know in advance what he is going to do but the character himself wouldn't.

Then that is not free will, if an entity has known our "program" since he programed us, and knows what we are going to do, then that negates free will all together. Having free will, means that no one, no entity, has foreknowledge of your actions. Hence free will, negates foreknowledge of an individuals actions.


Maybe that's not the best metaphor but hopefully you get my point.

Right that is not the best metaphor at all, computers often fail for unknown reasons, even programmers have had clitches to keep fixing, see "microsoft".

Godless
 
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