Proof that the Christian god cannot exist

[usp8riot]

So god invented evil to enteratain himself?

No, He didn't invent evil. Just like He didn't invent us or the earth, it evolved. He molded as it spun, speaking metaphorically of course, like molding a clay pot. Necessity is the mother of invention and so as we grew, so evil was formed. When man became knowledgeable man, ie, knew when he was hurting someone else by being able to place himself in others shoes to see how they feel, that's when he knew he was sinning or hurting someone. And that happened as man evolved and gained intelligence. The evil is not entertainment, it is to protect each other and oneself also. To know when someone is displeased. There is a moment in evolution from ape to man when we evolved to understand this slowly and our reasoning and this ability to see sin, or how to feel others emotions and how they are hurt. This is metaphored in the bible as biting from the tree of knowledge. That is when man was created as we are now, self-aware and reasonable, atleast some of us.

Let me get this, the same sob diety that invented evil for his entertainment is going to judge us on our struggle with evil? Very absurd don't you think?

Yes, He will judge understandably. As He already knows how tough it is to be a human, He knows all. If you trust your own mother/father's punishment, you can surely trust His and the mercy He will have for us all on judgement day. Surely it will be greater mercy our parents gave us when we commited wrong against someone.

If it has to happen, then god can't posibly be omnipotent, since he couldn't create a universe without evil! Since he created evil anyway, don't that make him evil as well?

Yes, it makes him self-aware of when someone is being hurt, that is recognizing evil. We could all be ignorant and see no evil and when wrong is done and get no reward for doing right, but it's not the case. Evil is only seen in the eyes of the intelligent. Like I said, to see evil is to see when wrong is commited. If we didn't know evil, we would have the intellect of animals, and would that be fun or challenging? We have a test to complete and should accept it.

Then that is not free will, if an entity has known our "program" since he programed us, and knows what we are going to do, then that negates free will all together. Having free will, means that no one, no entity, has foreknowledge of your actions. Hence free will, negates foreknowledge of an individuals actions.

Freewill is imo, able to do what you want or think what you want. Whether God knows what's going on or not, doesn't matter, it won't affect us unless He actually jumps in and takes action. So, knowing in advance the variables of an object makes the object have no free will? Huh, new one to me. No free will to do as it pleases? So 2+2=4 has no free will? In that case, no, we don't. Because of all the variables in the universe, all the mathematic calculations, involving us and the universe and the product of the conflictions of variables, it can all be calculated. Every action and object in the universe is declared with a variable, how it can be acted upon, how much, it's object's properties, etc, like I said, by the ultimate mathematician, and He knows all. I guess if someone knows the outcome, the no, none of us have free will because there is always one that knows the outcome of all.

And, of course PC's fail, they're built by us. Everything fails with time. That's irrelevant to the conversation.

 

[SnakeLord]

Some of you should grow up and stop being babies. Listen, evil happens for a reason. If we had no evil, what challenge would we have here on earth? Evil is nothing but challenge. When you go to work and faced with struggles, negative prospects that are abound, they are to overcome. When you play a game in God mode, what is there to do, where is the challenge without someone opposing you? You get bored, it is dull.

A) So you're saying that a young child is raped, tortured and then killed to stop life from becoming boring and dull?

B) Given your statements above, it seems that "heaven" is going to be the most boring place of all. No?

"where is the challenge?"

 

[wesmorris]

It amazes me that people think logic applicable to an argument regarding religion.

It didn't used to.

 

[cole grey]

The best idea I have come up with is that in order to evolve to as high a level of consciousness as we have, we needed the pressure and possibilities of evil - mental illness and bad genes, environmental hazrds, et al.

To say that God allowing evil is completely sensible is a mistake though. If you can't admit that you don't really understand why things are this way, i think you are one confused theist.

 

[usp8riot]

A) So you're saying that a young child is raped, tortured and then killed to stop life from becoming boring and dull?

No, it is a bad thing to happen, of course. But evil happens with free will. If you made a robot and programmed it to stray off path at random times, then it should be cautioned of course if it is capable of hurt. As man evolved a higher intellect, he gained the ability to stray off course in other words, to choose more paths. We see the less intelligent beings like animals are pretty set in their ways, they hardly have any logic and can only comprehend and carry out what they're programmed for, or their instinct and basic wants.

B) Given your statements above, it seems that "heaven" is going to be the most boring place of all. No?

Yes, I have thought of that question. And because Satan had a choice to do or not do as God told him, apparently we can wrong in heaven also. There has to be challenges. No challenges=dull life or afterlife. Even God has challenges with the universe. God speaks of being sad, angry, etc. He seems to have emotions and thereby, we can tell he must have challenges He faces himself. He feels hurt just as we do. I don't like authority figures just as much as the next guy but God as I understand Him, is very easy-going compared to the way some portray Him. He is not someone that apparently sits on His throne waving orders without a care in the world or no worries. That is an arrogant and conceited man, whoever would do that. I would be pissed off at God if that's the way I thought of Him too. But I'm sure heaven will be more peaceful than earth is now. Like the command post in a war. The soldiers on the frontline, in the thick of it have the toughest job fighting. But the command post there is not so much pressure and more peaceful. Even though it's sad hearing of your men going, it would be nothing compared to being in the thick of it with bullets flying around your head. But the job has it's own worries just as an supervisory job does. The command post is probably not the best metaphor but don't have much time for reason right now.

 

[Sarkus]

If you made a robot and programmed it to stray off path at random times, then it should be cautioned of course if it is capable of hurt.

Why would you programme a robot to stray off path, only to caution it when it did? If you didn't want it to, why give it that ability??? Not logical.

We see the less intelligent beings like animals are pretty set in their ways, they hardly have any logic and can only comprehend and carry out what they're programmed for, or their instinct and basic wants.

Actually, due to their lack of intelligent, they are far more logical than humans tend to be.
You put your hand in a fire - it hurts - you pull it out through instinct. This is a logical reaction for survival.

Once you understand the animal's main driver, you see that most of what they do instictively is entirely a logical pursuit of that driver - mainly survival. So one could say that instinct and logic run in parallel.

 

[SnakeLord]

If you made a robot and programmed it to stray off path at random times

I wouldn't do anything quite that daft unless I really wanted it to - and I can't think of any worthwhile reason right now.

As man evolved a higher intellect, he gained the ability to stray off course in other words, to choose more paths.

You seem to be contradicting your earlier stance. Evolved or programmed?

We see the less intelligent beings like animals are pretty set in their ways, they hardly have any logic and can only comprehend and carry out what they're programmed for, or their instinct and basic wants.

I'd have to disagree with you here and ask how humans are any different in only doing "what they're programmed for"?

And because Satan had a choice to do or not do as God told him

Choice? Or perhaps just a "robot programmed to stray off the path"?

I don't like authority figures just as much as the next guy but God as I understand Him, is very easy-going compared to the way some portray Him.

The annihilation of every man, woman, child and animal on the planet is considered "easy going"?

But I'm sure heaven will be more peaceful than earth is now

So, the purpose of earth is what exactly?

 

[usp8riot]

To put it simply, intelligence=ability to make or see more choices. Evil=wrong choice. The more intelligent the being, the more choices it will see when it comes to overcoming a challenge. As we see in the intelligence of animals, for instance, the famed mouse in a maze. Which of course, the more intelligent the animal, the better they perform. Any time you make anything complex, that's just more ways it can go wrong. Therefore, the smarter the being, the more it can see good choices and bad choices. An animal isn't programmed for much since it hasn't much intellect. Now we on the other hand, are programmed on a higher scale, there's way more possibilities. More chances of us doing something wrong or going wrong. I was thinking about this today at work and had it phrased better in my head but too tired to think as good at the moment.

 

[usp8riot]

The annihilation of every man, woman, child and animal on the planet is considered "easy going"?

No, no, no, not my God. He created us and the last thing He would want to do is kill us. There is always hope for man. I don't believe in killing just as my God doesn't. Even someone who has killed has the chance to turn around and save someone else and it is for God to punish, not us. Our lives are not our own, but God's and if someone hurt's His child, it is Him who should bear responsibility in the end. There are enough godless people out there that don't play by God's rules and will wind up punishing them instead, because the godless love violence. They see others' lives as theirs to hurt or take away. Not just atheists, but people who kill in the name of Allah or God also. I am pretty much a religion of my own but still believe in the Abrahamic God. But as different phases of man require different rules, so do I think it's time for different rules.

So, the purpose of earth is what exactly?

I can't say that for sure. That is only what God knows. I feel there is a message left in all of us, like a message left by your father as he goes off to work, to behave, a note of rules. And so that same message I feel, which is in all of us but some are more in tune to it than others. It tells us what is right and wrong, it is our conscience, aka, our ability to reason and know when someone is hurting and that when something is not right.

 

[UncleChrist]

For some good laughs

Sam Harris Forum

Another Funny post

 

[stretched]

Patriot:
“There has to be evil in the world, there has to be someone to test you.”

* I am feeling drowsy … I am feeling very sleepy …”

P:
“You will also on your day of judgement see the pain in the eyes of God and will understand and forgive God for your blasphemy and other sins.”

* 3,2,1 … you’re under.

P:
“But evil has to happen. Without one, there can be no other.”

* Look I can levitate …

P:
“Therefore there is no random. By the one who started it, knows all, and all the properties and values of all variables involved, on He can predict or know what the turnout will be.”

* Your wish is my command … master …

P:
“And pertaining to free will, yes, we have free will. “

* I have free will … I have free will … I have free will …

P:
“And being the creator of all, you built the PC from the ground up also, IC chips and all, so you know it all. And if you know how the RND program on the PC functions since you wrote it, no prob either.”

* If you are intimating that this creator is the Christian god, perhaps he should stick to turning out red cheeked little cherubs, his PC is totally fucked up. And you say HE knew that all along? Dig?

P:
“Maybe that's not the best metaphor but hopefully you get my point.”

* Pay your money at the door.

 

[usp8riot]

Stretched, are you even old enough to post something intelligible?

 

[redarmy11]

No, no, no, not my God. He created us and the last thing He would want to do is kill us. There is always hope for man. I don't believe in killing just as my God doesn't

Please explain what went wrong with Noah, the Ark, the flood and, er...

The annihilation of every man, woman and child on the planet..

Did he get out of the wrong side of bed that day?

Not that that was an isolated incident. God massacres men, women and children throughout the entire Old Testament, apparently for fun.

 

[stretched]

Patsy
"Stretched, are you even old enough to post something intelligible?"

* Oh, boy.

 

[Sarkus]

To put it simply, intelligence=ability to make or see more choices.

Not sure I agree with this rather simple definition of intelligence. Seeing choices is not intelligent - especially if none of them work.

Evil=wrong choice.

Good grief!
So if I ask someone: What is 2 + 2 and they say 5, they are EVIL?????

As we see in the intelligence of animals, for instance, the famed mouse in a maze. Which of course, the more intelligent the animal, the better they perform.

So a paraplegic blind person, who would perform badly, is not intelligent?? A mouse would outperform them, after all.

Any time you make anything complex, that's just more ways it can go wrong. Therefore, the smarter the being, the more it can see good choices and bad choices. An animal isn't programmed for much since it hasn't much intellect. Now we on the other hand, are programmed on a higher scale, there's way more possibilities. More chances of us doing something wrong or going wrong. I was thinking about this today at work and had it phrased better in my head but too tired to think as good at the moment.

You're still equating wrong choice and evil - and you have a very simplified understanding of intelligence.

Part of intelligence is the ability to learn from "wrong" choices.

But intelligence has diddly to do with EVIL.
Good and Evil are just comparatives of outcome for a given choice when compared to the morals of the person / society.
And these morals have, IMO, developed over time as we try and live in harmony together, and basically are determined and shaped by the majority. It is the natural way of things.

For example, if you were the only living thing on the planet - but had all the food you could want so didn't starve etc - which of your actions would be EVIL, and which would be GOOD?

 

[usp8riot]

Please explain what went wrong with Noah, the Ark, the flood and, er...

And it was, I'm sure, the last thing He wanted to do. Do you think there is a God who just creates people and destroys them for the fun of it? Where's the logic? If you believe that, why are you not locked up in a mental institution? A perfect God would not do that. Perfection is the simplest, most efficient state an object can be in. And that also means, no waste.

Take a perfect circle, for instance, a geometric example of what is considered perfect. It will not be perfect if there is 2 circles put together side by side, or looped together, because you have wasted space, and to be perfect there can only be one whole object. With two, in either the outside or inside space, there is waste. Consider especially this being a universe/globe in a 4d space/time. The most simple, efficient state is perfection, like I said. No waste, and waste would be the last thing a perfect God would want. We see this in nature, it is efficient and nothing is wasted. If a trait is useless in a species, the species eventually evolves without that trait or feature or gains a certain feature so as to adapt. And in nature, when a creature dies, nothing is wasted. Everything is recycled by nature. Everything has a purpose.

Not sure I agree with this rather simple definition of intelligence. Seeing choices is not intelligent - especially if none of them work.

We're talking moral decisions here for choices.

So if I ask someone: What is 2 + 2 and they say 5, they are EVIL?????

Again, moral decisions. But also you could call it a sin, come to think of it if someone's health/life/welfare was on the line. A sin doesn't have to be harmful to someone else, can also be harmful to yourself. And doesn't have to be like, "oh, I SINNED, I'm going to hell". No, everyone makes wrong choices, nothing wrong with that and God knows it. Some just have more or stronger consequences. What is really sin in your heart is to not care if you make a wrong choice. Suppose you were a doctor and we equate the 2+2=5 to his studies. Of course if the doctor tries hard and makes a mistake in his studies which could have deadly or unhealthy consequences later on in his career, he will have sinned. But God knows he tried for the love of himself, his patient, and the good of all, so it is not taken against him nearly like it would if he was ignorant and just didn't care of the consequences or who he could harm. A sin can be very small or very big, but doesn't have to be a big deal to God. Everyone does and will screw up, no one is perfect.

So a paraplegic blind person, who would perform badly, is not intelligent?? A mouse would outperform them, after all.

Do I really have to answer these type questions? Jeez, you know what I mean. You're wasting everyone's time with dumb questions like this. The others I don't mind but this is just dumb.

Do you get it yet? Evil is done when someone knows they've done wrong or made a wrong choice. Evil isn't done by someone who isn't intelligent enough to know what a wrong choice is. The animals don't sin or do evil because even if they kill out of defense even though the person/animal intended no harm, the animal knew no better, therefore, hasn't performed evil and hence, will not be judged by their actions, ie, God didn't give the animal the ability to reason well enough to know when wrong choices were commited. Also the same is true for the mentally retarded or for children who know no better when they commit acts. They will be forgiven as they haven't been taught better or may not know better and if they die prematurely in the case of a healthy, smart child, they cannot be punished for committing any act they didn't know any better. They knew no rule, therefore, they didn't break any rule. Would you spat your child if they done wrong but didn't know it was wrong? So how much would our Father in heaven forgive us if we committed such an act? But just as He cannot punish, and so He also cannot reward for doing good or what He wanted if the individual didn't know what He wanted. And so as you unbelievers won't be punished by my God for not believing or knowing His rules, you will neither be rewarded. You will be as you were before. And so shall your life be used to bring nothing in advancement. To neither believe in a God or neither care is such a waste of life that God has given you. To believe in God is to believe in a purpose and to try to fulfill it so as to advance your soul. God has given you a gift, and He longs for us to not take it for granted.

 

[Godless]

I love it when theist try an sound logical in their ilogical rhetoric. Good try kid, perhaps you'll convince some confused atheist, I don't think we have any here on Sciforums. fact is we have a record of turning hardcore theist like yourself, to agnosticism, atheism or non-label secularists.

Quote: SouthStar

I am the Christian depicted in the quote. I can no longer honestly defend my faith and relinquish my all so glorious title, Defender of the Faith. After an objective inspection of the Bible

click on his turning point. It's a good read.

I realize this won't convince you of anything, that's not my goal, here my goal is for you to really take a look at exactly what is it that you believe. If you were born in South Arabia, you'd be preaching to us about Allah, and the great religion of Islam, If you were from Tibet perhaps you would be a Buddhist and talk about that relgion. You are a product of your emidiate enviorenment, as a child you have adopted a version of your parents religion if not the same religion, you have not questioned it's history, origin, nor it's validity, you have merely accepted on assertion everything that's been fed to you, without the evidence to back it up, you have no doubt been told "have faith" yet another manipulative ploy at ignorance.

The best place to start, your education my friend is the bible. Be thorough like SouthStar, n this guy Bart Ehrman

or this guy; Dan Barker

Begin to see a patern here? these were proffesors and clegy, SouthStar is a very versed x-religious person, who argued moths after months, and simply was told to screw off many times, however he did take an "objective" look at what exactly was that he believed. So keep reading your bible.

Godless

 

[usp8riot]

I am not a product of Christianity or any other religion. My grandparents were Christian on one side and that's it. I can tell my mom that I believe, even if I say some Islam phrases sound just, or if I didn't understand part of the Christian bible, or if I just said, 'screw hell, i'll punch the devil in his face'. The thing with me is I could argue subjectively with my family like that of religion because I was an open book growing up, pretty much. Nothing instilled as far as religion goes.

And if I had to say my religion is a product of anything, it is a product of all information gathered thus far from science and God. It is a product of the vast resources of the internet. When I chose to research how the universe worked and our purpose and how we are to live, that is where I researched and I hold steadfast to my faith in God, nothing can shake it. I am very secure in my knowledge of the world and God's views. As soon as I tried to go up against God myself and disprove Him for myself but found out otherwise, I didn't believe, I knew. At one time in my life, my late teens, I was baptised but still had my doubts only to later walk away from my faith slowly and in the end, I had no God. All the views I've read of others, convinced me He wasn't there and His prophets were false and His words were bologne. I am a very intense individual and felt this God of others should face hell Himself and I would like to get a hold of Him and rip Him apart for sending others to hell when they were innocent unbelievers who simply hadn't had the opportunity to learn of Him. But that is not how it worked, I came to find out. God gave me a message and said He is extremely sad of the condition of the world now and how so much hate can be spread under the guise of His word. He is very upset with those that are ignorantly spreading a misguided message of His and making others hate Him or misunderstand Him but yet, those people doing this neither know themselves or realise the consequences and He will forgive them as much as they forgive others.

I used to never want to mingle with non-Christians at one point for fear of them converting me and that's what happened. I was an atheist about all my life, late teens, supposed believer in God, or so I said, 20-25 yrs old approx., hardcore atheist, until more than a year ago when I discovered the truth. Now, I have the security, to be able to be around anyone I want and hear all the views I want, I know the truth and nothing else makes sense to me anymore but the truth. I have seen the world from God's eye view at one point in my life, seen the pain, the suffering, the world in it's present, soon-to-be reborn days, and it's sad seeing the cold, hard truth. It's both a curse and a blessing. I see everything through logic now. Logic is the truth, the rules of the universe, it is science...math...reasoning, and it is the way. Even in these times when we there are so many atheists but they still go by logic, their rules are pretty much that of God's. Logic runs parrallel with God's views and man's own natural views. It is logic, which is like a message, God put inside us all, to guide us in this life. He gave our ancestors a choice to bite from the metaphorical tree of knowledge. And so we did, and so we saw logic. And as we saw what is right, we also saw what is wrong. Jesus taught logic and was a very intelligent man. But Jesus was very in tune to this message God gave us, what is right and what is wrong. Some are more than others. And sometimes is easier to tune into when it is not tainted by other instilled religions. But is also easier to be perverted when you are instilled with a lot of wrong messages growing up. As so, I feel 100% my faith in God will never leave me. It is the truth and as long as my body longs for the truth, so shall I have God with me. I feel any question involving morality I can answer from what He gave me. Not from quoting from any religious text, but from my own mind, using logical reasoning.

 

[Godless]

Well I suppose if you are happy, it really doesn't matter that you live in delusion right? I'ts your belief, your truth, your subjective ideal of god that keeps you going even though psychologically it's delusional to believe in theological rhetoric thought out by schizophrenic mentalities and happened to document their trief, so be it. Be happy.

But the truth! It aint found in religion. Truth of what? Our existence here? our "life after death" crap, saving soul? when there's no evidence you posses such a thing, truth of what really? Delusional subjective mentality that gives the illusion that you are secure in the next life by your actions here. That's mind boggling.

And like Audible mentioned in some other thread, I don't believe for a minute, that you were a hard core atheist, perhaps a mostly confused theist, who denied for a bit the theological rhetoric.

I've been an atheist about as long as you have lived, I'm one of the youngers ones around here, of atheist of have been on this board for as many years as I have, they know my bacground from different discusions and threads on these here boards. I wan't always an atheist, I was Catholic in my teens, Christian in my late teens, and I've been "reborn" as a Babtist in my last denomination, before coming to grips with reality and becoming an atheist. it's no easy move, I understand the strugle one goes through, atheism is not for everyone, some miss the commoradity of the hibe, the commonality of beliefs and the support of the same misquided rhetoric by it's leaders, but truth? Aint found in religion! Oppression is!

Godless

 

[usp8riot]

Godless:

Truth of what? Our existence here? our "life after death" crap, saving soul?

The truth on the correct way to live. Our existance is to do God's will, that is the purpose. God tells us that we will be rewarded as we reap, so in the after life, it is time to be graded on the test, so to speak. You can go on and on into infinity in an infinite universe with infinite possibilities to explore and infinite knowledge to be gained but we can't store it all and neither will we have time to find it all. You got to learn to know when to draw the line, when the knowledge I learn will help me or if it is going in to too much depth that it is just a waste of my time and will never come into use in this life. That is the mistake a lot of knowledgeable and curious people make. You will never find that end, the end of the universe, the end of knowledge, the end it all question to all questions. If you did know, you would be God. And God is infinity. Just as kids question questions and on and on, so as we are kids of God, we will never know all He knows and can keep on questioning for infinity if we had it. Even if we were infinite, God will always be one step ahead, on the verge or forefront of infinity, breaking ground, leading the way just as our parents have done for us or bosses at work, treading a path and telling us which is the best and safest path to complete the goal.